doug791

i love this bored but i hate how no one listens to what anyone else says....let me see if i can explain this for everyone because im tired of this post....

The supposed "pro cfi" people who have been posting are saying that the cfi is not great and at some point he should most likely replace it with something else if he wants to build a big powerful engine but FOR NOW the guy who has this cfi car is on a limited budget and has two options.

Option #1 replace the cfi with a carb/tpi and not have money for anything else currently....he will shave roughly .3/.4 off of his quarter mile time.

Option #2 he does the exhaust, some other bolt ons and buys a spare cfi intake and gives a go at porting. Even if he doesnt do a great job at porting all of these mods he will shave up to a second if not more off of his quarter mile time.

Which one seems more obvious too you? If someone offered you two cars that were the same but one had a carb and was a high 15 second car and one had cfi and other bolt ons and was a high 14 second car which would you take?

Maybe he does his bolt ons and porting and goes you know what im happy with my cfi and im not concerned with makeing this car any faster...then hes set...if he decides no this isnt enough and he wants a faster car then he goes out and buys a carb or a tpi setup

Right now the man has two decisions have a slow carbed car, or have a full second faster cfi car.....i think staying with the cfi FOR NOW at least is the easy decision.

mrr23

doug - YOU DA MAN!!!! in between all our posts ( actually mine and greed) he said he's keeping the CFI. i pointed him to other boards to take advantage of that. now i'm having a good laugh with greed (or at depends on how you look at it). he keeps insisting on getting rid of the CFI (with no proof of the end result by just swapping it out). and i keep showing the real option here. one day he'll give up (don't know when).

ZzBlacKzZ

can i just port the manifold that i have on it right now?
i really dont have the money to spend on an extra manifold.

ill retract my earlier statement, i have ported some things, like engines for remote control cars. sounds easy, i know, but it can get complicated.

im also having problems with this whole exhaust thing. no one on thirdgen's boards, nor this board, will tell me my stock exhuast size! i have an 83 z28. maybe one of you guys would know?

the next thing i would like to spend money on is my exhaust. for now im stuck, because i dont have enough money to go all out and buy a whole new exhaust. so i was wondering if theres anything that could be done with the stock exhaust size?

sorry if i sound like a newb.... probably because i am!

mrr23

yes you can port yours. the idea of buying another one is so you can do it while still driving yours. then you can turn around and sel lthe one you take off. recoup some of the money. the stock exhaust size is at most 2 1/4" on the intermediate pipe. right when it goes over the tailpipe it splits into 2 pipes measuring about 1 7/8". then it slams into a 90* turn into the 2 mufflers. in the passenger exhaust manifold there was this tiny adapter piece sticking inside the exit side. measured about 1 7/8" diameter. maybe i can get chevyhacker to take a pic of it if he still has it around. really not the smartest idea GM had. do what chevyhacker did to his. get headers, and 3" catback exhaust. do a good tune up on it. cap, rotor, wires and plugs. we upgraded the coil to an Accel in cap coil.

ZzBlacKzZ

hmmm, somethings different. on mine i have one pipe that leads into one muffler, then has two outlets. well either way, can i work with a 2 1/4 pipe? just to get a little extra power out of it for now? or should i jsut say screw it and wait until i have enough money for headers and a catback?

as for the intake, im going to try and get it all done in one day so that i dont have to worry about not being able to drive it.

chevyhacker

IMHO, as the owner of a CFI car (actually 2 if you'd really like to make fun of me) - I think the equation is simple.

Owning CFI = Ridicule

The largest "problem" with CFI is its reputation. Buying a carb and intake has the amazing benefit of suddenly allowing you to post somewhere and not have people berate your car.

If I was to go ask questions on cam sizing, and people saw I had CFI, I'd have 3 posts in 5 mins telling me to get rid of CFI first because the car will never make any power with it.

I do not have some crazy dream that a CFI system is going to make my car as fast as some other equal displacement engine. I have seen enough proof in the form of other cars with timeslips that are attractive to me, so therefore, I am working with CFI. Could I buy a carb and a nice manifold and have the engine make more power - I probably could. I don't have any hard data, so I can't answer conclusively. Am I wasting my money - I don't think so, because I have goals and I'm spending toward those goals. Those that think I'm wasting money, likely have different goals.

FWIW - I have found CFI reliable, and know a large group of people that own CFI cars that would agree with that statement.

I am sick of people walking up to my vette, telling me how nice it looks, and then saying - "wow - don't you have problems with that cross-fire stuff"? I usually ask them if they've ever seen it (no) and if they would like to (yes) - I tell them I've owned the car for 7 years without a single problem with fuel injection. Lots of other things like alternators, water pumps, fuel pump, etc - but I haven't touched the injection system. I hope at that point they don't keep spreading the urban legend.

The good news for ZzBlackzZ is now he knows 2 sets of people - ones that will help you with CFI, and others that would help you switch to carb. Hell, there are tons of guys here that would help him switch to TPI or a superram or whatever.

6 years ago when I bought the vette there wasn't a cross-fire community, or boards like this to help exercise debate on these options.

2 years ago, the cfi guys hadn't really explored alternative manifolds (the sy-1, the offy, etc)

1 year ago, swapping ECMs wasn't plug & play

2 months ago, the prom emulator didn't exist

I look forward to the next few years progress.

But, to the owners of CFI that are contemplating their future - if this adventure (long debate posts, ridicule, exploration of new options) doesn't excite you - you probably should investigate the alternatives.

Just my $0.02

88Irocker

Not to mention the CFI with headers option should get a little better mpg than the carbed engine.

ZzBlacKzZ

yea i plan to stick with the cfi because of the mpg, and because its already tuned, where as i would have to tune a carbed engine.

thanks for all the help guys!

bigdaddyvu

I agree with chevy hacker in 1984 GM did all they can with the CFI and corrected it. the 84 corvette has the only perfectly working CFI but except the camaro's and firebirds orginally (GM used the f-body for a test production). and the originally owner recieved the recall notice to fix them.there is just a few excellent CFI F-BODIES that was corrected. But at that time people were picky about their money and performance. GM didn't want to gamble and lose customers so they canned CFI. By the way i thought this was Camaro message board. All negative accounts are based for the CFI F-BODY (camaro and firebird) only. Be helpful. A true gearhead research and express the proper information without prejustice. we don't want to confuse, miss lead, or scare new people in this hobby. You'll be sorry if they turned around and build HONDASPORT's

Greed4Speed

The problem is that CFI people were defensive from the beginning. Look at your first posts, you were just waiting for someone to disagree so you could start all the "CFI is great" trash.

The original question for the forum was:

I say yes, plane and simple. It is something that he could use if he does build a larger engine. That is something that you can't even claim for your all powerful CFI. The questions was NOT should he rip off his CFI now nor did I ever tell him to. I just stated that a carb and intake could be used now as well as if he went with a larger engine later. It was not discussed about being on a tight budget. Someone else brought that up.

Another fallacy is assuming a carbed V8 gets poor milage. They don't necessarily get poor milage. With an overdrive, there is no reason a decent V8 w/ more displacement that your 305 can't get 21+ mpg. I drove a 79 305 Elky w/a 4bbl quadrajet for a while and it got over 20 mpg unless I was keeping my foot in the secondaries. That was with a 3 speed transmission too. If you have a lead foot, a fuel injected car wont get very good milage either.

Why do I keep posting? Because you CFI guys can't defend your positions eventhough I have defended mine and you have resorted to name calling several times. You think you'll get people wanting to listen to your point that way? You are the ones who claimed budget conscienness, and several times I have asked how much $ it takes to get a CFI to run decent. I still have yet to recieve a reply, is it because it nickles and dimes you to death trying to get power from your combo?

If zZblack wants to mod his CFI thats fine, more power to ya. Good luck on it. The problem I've seen in this post is a gross lack of cost information and actual power gains from these CFI mods. Say he spends the cash to port the intake, what will that net him? A couple of HP for the $200 for the porting equipment? You make claims but have never given proof.

chevyhacker

Greed4Speed - The mods and their resultant times were discussed - here's a specific link that will get you straight to that information if you'd like to see it. Mods & Times


You are correct, I don't remember seeing the costs posted in this thread.

Ballpark, the headers were $330, the catback another $325, porting the manifold used mrr23s tools, but no real cost (ok, I bought a spare manifold, that I can now resell if I'd like - it was approx $100), the torque converter was $70, plug wires were $50, the accel coil was $50

Those are the items I believed helped my times - sure you can make the case that the electric fans helped $100, but I can't imagine they helped much - I did it because I thought it was interesting.

If anyone wants more cost detail, just let me know.

Again, my position is not "CFI is great", it is "CFI is not crap" - in my mind, there is a difference. Again it comes down to the goals of the individual owner.

ZzBlacKzZ - I think you are in texas - i bet if you ask for help porting on the crossfire forum, there are a few guys in texas that will offer use of tools or assistance. It shouldn't be a $200 adventure unless you are buying it already ported & paying for someone's time to do it.

doug791

Okay this is where the man said he was on a budget and everything changed.

I personally dont necessarily think you should spend 200 dollars getting porting tools and all of the time that would need to invest in that seems to be a waste. Although if building a powerful car at some point youll want to port your plenum and maybe some other things your definitly not wasting money ever when buying tools.

I think you best bet is to leave everything alone on the intake side for now since you are on a budget....Do some exhaust work and get the car running really well. When you have the cash then switch over to another system. While a cfi system can be tuned it will never be as good as a tpi/carbed setup so i just wouldnt waste my time.

WAIT!!! people on this board tend to read what they want to read...i know following this someone will want to post and will quote me BUT CFI ISNT A WASTE OF TIME.

It doesnt matter spend you money on everything else for now. And when you have the cash and have removed the rest of your bottle necks because straight up as much as it may be possible i think it is out of almost all of our range to have a cfi that works as well as carbed/tpi

mrr23

you really live in your own world.
no we weren't defensve in the beginning. my first post i said ooh looky someone scared of EFI. then, the onslaught of you must take the CFI off began. and of course someone comes along and disgrees with you on doing the carb swap and you got on the defensive immediately. and because you fail to read the post i made refering to the post over at thirdgen.org with a person named tom400CFI with what could it be? yes a 400 motor.

and yes it was brought up should he rip it off immediately.
you know, the part you didn't quote in your post there skippy.

the mileage thing is another debate. we'll start another thread on that later.

you and this proof thing is a little backwards. i guess you only read your own. in at least three posts i have clearly stated that doing the exhaust and tune up gained 1.13 secs. and porting the intake gained .3 secs. you say you've proved yours. i still haven't seen a shred of evidence of the gain you get from just swapping to a carb and intake. no dyno, no e.t. slip times, nothing, squat, zilch, zero, zippo, nada.

i never called anyone names. i told the one guy his opinion stinks. i called you ignorant (which for the second time i will say dictionary definition means lacking of knowledge) because you have none on the subject of CFI other than the fact you've worked on your friends cars that were problematic and you couldn't fix. so of course it's junk to you.

the money issue. come on now. page 2 of this thread. here i'll copy and paste for you so you don't have to look for it. and your reply on the same page 2 put on the glasses and get some ginkobaloba.

see above. i have given proof plenty of times. you just fail to click the provided links. but here i'll try again. i'll post it here so you don't have to look for it in this thread. and of all places page 1 go figure?
here's a quick rundown on chevyhackers car and what we have done.
http://www.technovelocity.com/chevyh...re_z/index.htm

and seeing as how zZblackZz wants to mod his CFI, then why do you keep posting? you've lost this everytime you try and post something. (just like this one) and i make claims and never given proof? may get out of your world and into this one. all throughout this thread i've given the proof. again where is yours? come on now your really behind on this one. please stop. well wait no don't i need a good stress relief. and i want to see this get to 10 pages. really i do.

doug791

Why the hell does anyone argue with anyone else. No ones going to listen so why bother. Say what you think he should do and what the results will be. If someone comes along and says switching to carbs will put you into the 10's by all means step up and say something but otherwise why dont we stick to helping the person who started this post and not just bickering back and forth because when it all comes down to it no one else cares!

Nitromethane

Yes, I'm not an argumentative kinda guy myself, but, being part of chevyhacker's "support team", and working with the crossfire system on his car and seeing the gains at the track, and understanding how engines actually work - it definately bugs the hell outta me when someone asks "how can I make my crossfire perform?" and some <won't resort to name calling> comes n says "hey change it to carb, you'll go faster" - that wasnt the point. The biggest problem I see with failed engines is the fact that people mis-match parts and mis-prioritize their parts.

Lets say you have a set of heads that flow 200cfm at .500" lift, your motor has a cam with .400" lift and an intake that flows 230cfm per runner.

Air goes in through the intake - flowing at 230cfm, it hits the head, n starts to back up, the head only flows 200cfm, but, the cam is only opening .400" so it's only actually flowing 180cfm!

Now we go put on a carb, the runners flow 260cfm each, the carb flows 600cfm - but, the heads still only flow 185cfm with that cam - where is the performance gain gonna come from? So we go change the heads - ok theres a gain there, but the cam is still only lifting .400" - so go change the cam so that u get .500" lift to maximize the potential of the heads.

So please explain to me - if my intake flows more than my heads and cam, and my exhaust is even worse so backing all that **** up building insane amounts of back pressure - why would I primarily spend all my money on switching to a carb? Wouldn't you say it was logical to first eliminate the bottlenecks? We've already proven that the exhaust is the single most effective mod to chevyhackers car to date with a 1.13 second improvement.

Intake porting, well, I had never done it before, but I borrowed mrr23's bits n had a shot at porting my tunnel ram, it turned out pretty damn good. http://www.zee28.com/tunnelramporting.htm - porting is easy, its knowing what to port that is the tough part, and how far to port it - but thats why other people have done it, written about it, and have many pictures and tech articles on it, its not rocket science.

Greed - I feel that mrr23 has covered most of the points you were insulting us on, I find it really annoying that after all the posts and the link to Chevyhackers site, that you're still whining about mods vs. cost vs. performance - its all been covered - if you really wanna know exact prices, take a few minutes to look at summitracing.com and look up the prices, if you're so knowledgable, you should also be smart enough to know what parts were used, theres not all that many 3" flowmaster exhausts for an 82-92 Camaro, n headers are all about affordability, in Chevyhackers case he used the Edelbrock TES headers.

In regards to using ebay to buy your stuff - the rule for carbs is simple "never buy a used carb unless you've seen it on a running car" - 99% of ebay carbs need to be rebuilt, or are in such horrible shape you'll be embarassed to sport the pile of junk on your car - I've heard of instances where people have carbs that run and tune fine, but leave it overnight n your motor's flooded. In fact, I made the mistake of buying a tunnel ram, 3 carbs (1 spare) and scoop on ebay, the carbs were absolute junk, bolts missing, float bowls not even bolted down properly, looked like ****, and the part numbers appear to be so old I need to contact Holley tech to find out what the hell they are - so I had to spend another $400 on a pair of 660 center squirters.

One of the guys in fl-thirdgen club has a ZZ4 motor in his 84 Camaro, he's been tinkering with that carb forever trying to get it setup correctly, it's not easy to do, to someone who's never worked on one, accellarator pump cams, squirter sizes, vacuum secondary springs etc are all a mystery, n that's not even touching the jet sizing. Most people who go carb, buy it, bolt it on and leave it tuned like crap simply because they dont know what to tune.

Like Doug said, nobody really gives a **** about this argument except a handful of people, its not really worth arguing over because I know we're right n you're wrong - once you've reached the full potential of your motor as it is, thats when you can start f*cking around with alternative injection systems, perhaps he'll fall into some money n decide he'd like to build a BDS fuel injected tunnel ram motor, thats his choice - but for all intents and purposes, theres plenty you can do with the crossfire before you need to replace it, and everything switches over so it's not like you're wasting any money.