Nobody wants to talk about dynos inaccuracies and imprecision on the internet, especially bolt on manual owners

 

Bob, i know you have years of racing experience, so i have no idea why you'd say this. My car does not have much done to it, i ran my first 12.9 @ 110 when i just had the high flow cats and MAF pipe, still on the stock tune. The pass afterwards i didn't get as good a launch and ran a 13.0 @ 110 with an LS2 A4 GTO with just a cat back that ran 13.6 @ 106.

Maybe i'm just an incredible driver. Or then again, i can look at what happened at a local GTO dyno day...http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74582

I accidentally swapped my HP/TQ numbers on the board, but note that i put my the same RWHP as 2 of the LS2 cars, and they both had at least cat backs and CAIs, i think one was an A4 the other M6. The only LS1s that made more power had at least cams in them. The 2 LS1 cars immediately above and below me (and some others) had LT headers and other mods, yet i still put down more RWHP. btw, i'm aware the numbers seem low, but the important thing is, it was the same dyno, same day with the same correction factors.

Same day, same conditions, my car simply made way more HP then it had any right too. And its track times back it up. I'd love to believe i'm just an incredible driver, and jesus raised teh barometric pressure in my stock air filter box to make it put down the numbers it does, but let's be realistic.

What makes a freak? I dunno, maybe i lucked into a thin pair f head gaskets, intake and exhaust manifolds that lined up perfect with the head ports, perfectly matched rocker ratios, perfectly fitting/sealing pistons, some nice loose bearings, maybe my tranny and rear are looser then most. Beats me. But you've been around race tracks enough to know that 'stock' class racers using 'stock' parts can make a lot more power then you'd expect because of painstaking detail in matching things up when they assemble their engines. Looking for exactly the kind of matching parts i mentioned above in stacks of 'stock' take out. Or are you going to tell me you've never met anyone who mic'd 50 stock mustang 5.0 cams looking for the one with the best numbers in the factory tolerances?

Yeah, no ****. And we're 'specifically' talking about 04 vs. 05/06 GTOs in this thread. And it's a fact that the 05/06 cars have much more invasive TQ management then the 04s, especially on the M6, which the 04 has none but the 05/06 does.

Fair enough. The LS2 certainly has more potential but stock for stock, it's not 50hp faster. List below is from ls1gto. There's 5mph difference between the fastest mph LS2 and slowest mph LS1s, more like 3mph on average (108 to 105). True, different tracks, drivers, conditions, etc, but i think the data is pretty clear.

 

Edited to tone down my response.

I don't believe in "factory freaks" because of my racing experience, not in spite of it. I've seen a bone stock 98 Cobra run 107 mph. Bone stock - down to the tires and air filter and factory oil. Think about that for a sec. There was a good reason for it. Was it a factory freak?

Were you on a load-bearing dyno? Was everybody's engine cool? Was anybody's? Regardless, that post on LS1GTO.com is a good example of why the dyno should be used for what it was intended to be used for: a tuning tool. I'll agree that some cars run better than others, but I would suggest that the actual power difference is along the lines of ~3%. Certainly not enough for a stock LS1 to make the same 400 HP as a stock LS2.

And it sounds like you a very good driver. I'll defer to my earlier statement about freak air, freak track, freak drivers, etc.

Yes, Factory Stock and NHRA stock eliminator racers absolutely "shop" stock parts. Some are better than others. But they are typically looking for 4 or 5 HP worth of difference at that point. Literally.

I am not argueing that the LS1 GTO is capable of running within a couple of tenths of the LS2 GTO. That is more a function of the car (as you point out) than the engine. My point was related solely to the engine. The LS2 engine is still more powerful, and IMHO, superior to the LS1 in virtually every respect. This was central reason for my entrance into this thread.

Bob

 

Hm. And here I figured he meant that the reliability of the LS1's was better than for the LS2's....

 

Maybe he did. If so, I have not researched that enough to make any educated comments on it.

 

Why?

I'm glad I have the LS1, I didnt want the Ls2 since it was new and I knew the LS1 had a history since it was already out 9 years when I bought my car!

As it turns out, the LS2 was only produced 3 years then droped..... why? Either way, I'm glad with my decision and dont look back wanting more or a different engine.

 

This isn't just about the LS1 vs LS2, it's about spending that much money on a car and the following year it get's "one upped" making you feel like you should have waited. When I buy the first convertible I can get with the biggest engine available, I reasonably expect it to remain unchanged (power wise) for about 3 years, so when the power bump comes I'm about ready to trade in. Image the poor slobs that bought a 1985 Grand National. Then the 86 and 87's came out with intercoolers and a LOT more power. Keep in mind that 84 was the first year for those. But the 84's and 85's weren't anything special. But the 86's and especially the 87's acheived cult status.

 

And again, I argue that if one buying a new car is worried about being one upped on horsepower a year or two or three in the future probally shouldn't be buying a new car in the first place because they are buying for the wrong reason. They should buy a used car and change engines as frequently as their hearts content.

The first and key reasons for buying a new car should always be because it fits your needs and you want that car. If it's mead well and offers a great value, you aren't going to give a hoot if it gets a 30 or 50 horsepower jump the next year.

Also, no car maker is ever going to publically say if they are going to up horsepower the following year. In fact, they are likely to keep it secret till the last possible moment. Chrysler 5.7 Hemis are going up to 370hp and 400 lbs/ft of torque this fall. How would that affect the 2007 Charger R/T buyer if Chrysler had let that out, say, a year and a half ago??

Also, horsepower outputs are state secrets nowadays, especially in performance cars. GM is in no way, shape, form, or fashion gonna let known (if at all within their power) what Camaro's horsepower is going to be until it's too late for the competition to react. Neither is Ford, or Chrysler, or Toyota, or BMW.

So, again, don't worry about being one upped the following year.

If you want the car, buy the car.

 

I agree with you on many levels. I understand that GM isn't going to announce that the 2011 Camaro will have X more power than the 2010. But if I pay upwards of 40 Grand for the new Camaro convertible and the V8 of the same level the FOLLOWING year is throwing down 50 more horsepower I'm going to be pi$$ed. Period. I understand the Top Dog is another deal all together. I'm talking about equally equipted cars. Say 2010 Z28 to 2011 Z28. Now I don't feel that the 2010 Camaro Convertible will be "UNDER POWERED" like say the first SSR's were. So it won't sting as much. It's not like they are going to put the L76 361hp engine in the first year and then FINALLY drop in the LS3 with 430 hp in the next year. But THAT would pi$$ me off tremendously if they did.

 

Personally, I think waiting to buy a new Camaro with a Gen5 engine might be exactly what I'll do. I won't be in a financial situation to buy a new car a year from now anyway, so I might as well wait a whole year and see what new options pop up.

If, at that point, they're still not on the Gen5, then maybe I can pick up a year-old '10 model to hold me over.

 

i think the Z28 will have the 361HP engine, then i think they'll introduce the 405HP version the next year or so as an SS. Just like the G8, kinda makes sense since its built on the same platform that they will have the same engines available right?

 

I think your both in agreement but from different points of view. You’re saying that car companies keep hp numbers secret because of competition and because of a potential sales dips in the current model. I think he is saying that should he be one of those unfortunate to have purchased a vehicle only to be one upped the next year by a different engine or just more power that he would be annoyed. I can't blame him for that.

I wouldn't loose any sleep if I bought a 2007 Explorer or Impala and I found out later that the 2008 models now have more power. However, I would be quite annoyed to be say the proud owner of a 1997 LT1 Z28 only to be upped by the 1998 LS1 F-bodies and their “advertised” 20hp increase in power... Not that I would know anything about this first hand. ...

 

The difference is that the 1997 was the 4th year of the LT1 Camaro. So the 98 LS1 upgrade was on time. So those that bought the 93 to be the first with the 4th gen weren't screwed the very next year. (unlike first year GTO and SSR owners). I want whatever V8 they decide to stick in the Camaro to be there for at least 3 years before a major upgrade in power. (except of course for the top dog model which we already know is coming) That puts forth a challenge to GM to forcast BEFORE they release the 5th Gen what the competition will be and plan accordingly. (And I don't think 361hp will cut it.) And not wing it on the fly the next year. Wishful thinking I know.

 

The only thing I can say about this is to keep a close eye out here on this site. I think we will know much more about GM's plans for engine or power far more in advance than I did w/o the net in '97.... once the Camaro hits the streets of course.

I don't think there is any protection from GM placing the new and better SBC in the Camaro when it's available. I think it's safe to say the base engine in the Vette is very likely to be the one in the Camaro either the same year or the next. Note that all recent changes in Vette engine be it LT1, LS1, LS2 and now LS3 have trickled down to other performance vehicles at GM soon after. It's just timing more than GM saying the LT1 will be used for the first 4 years of F-body production and then the LS1 takes over. GM wasn't going to continue LT1 production just for the F-body.

I do think the Camaro will be safe from any engine upgrade from say the LS3 for a few years. Timing for the C7 is around 2011 and if GM follows the intro of the C5 and C6 with a new base engine for a new gen. that will give the Camaro 3 years of LS3 time before moving up to the next Vette base engine.

 

I've had both. Give me the LS2 ANY DAY!!