Oil change on an SS: wait until it asks?
05-17-2010, 01:49 PM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Van Nuys, Ca.
Posts: 284
05-17-2010, 01:56 PM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ohio
Posts: 4,482
my silverado gets the oil changed every 2000-2500 miles. the wifes camry gets it every 3k-4k. hummer gets it every 3k. and the camaro will get fresh clean oil every 3k. you figure it takes me 2-3 months before i put 1k on the odometer.
05-18-2010, 03:15 PM
#18
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 72
Thanks very much, all! Well, most of you, anyway. 
The article about the G-8 was sort of encouraging. As Jason pointed out, I was following the car's manual and it's sensor suite. That's exactly what the dealership told me to do, and they stand to make money from oil changes.
So, maybe it's "safe," but is it good? I could feel a difference in the car after the first oil change, and that tells me that running out the oil until the car thinks it needs new isn't ideal.
My mom's BMW has some kind of crazy oil in it that the dealer says may last 100,000 miles. I doubt that a lot, but we'll keep an eye on it.
I'll go with the 5000 mile interval for the oil change.
As for changing the oil real soon after you get the car, there are two considerations:
The engine has already been run at the factory, and the oil replaced after that. There shouldn't be any metal burrs on new parts remaining to change the oil so soon.
Following the recommended break-in routine will also be very gentle on your oil. If I had it to do over, I think I'd change it after break-in, and send a sample to an oil analysis place, to look for anything weird.
The article about the G-8 was sort of encouraging. As Jason pointed out, I was following the car's manual and it's sensor suite. That's exactly what the dealership told me to do, and they stand to make money from oil changes.
So, maybe it's "safe," but is it good? I could feel a difference in the car after the first oil change, and that tells me that running out the oil until the car thinks it needs new isn't ideal.
My mom's BMW has some kind of crazy oil in it that the dealer says may last 100,000 miles. I doubt that a lot, but we'll keep an eye on it.
I'll go with the 5000 mile interval for the oil change.
As for changing the oil real soon after you get the car, there are two considerations:
The engine has already been run at the factory, and the oil replaced after that. There shouldn't be any metal burrs on new parts remaining to change the oil so soon.
Following the recommended break-in routine will also be very gentle on your oil. If I had it to do over, I think I'd change it after break-in, and send a sample to an oil analysis place, to look for anything weird.
05-18-2010, 04:03 PM
#19
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Okemos, MI
Posts: 9,479
The oil life monitor doesn't take into account anything external to the engine -- just things like revs, cold starts, etc. For example, if you drive down dirt roads a lot, some small portion of that dirt is going to make it through the air filter, into the combustion chamber, and eventually from there, past the rings, into the oil. That will make the oil degrade faster than in normal, clean conditions. If you drive in such conditions more than what GM has determined to be a safe average, you'll find that the oil will be pretty degraded when you change it. If that's the case, you might want to keep an eye on the Oil Life Remaining readout (it's in the DIC and in your OnStar email report, if you have that), and change the oil when it gets down to 30% or something. Experiment with what works best for you.
Note that the oil life monitor assumes you are using full synthetic oil. Conventional oil will not last as long.
You're welcome to change your oil as often as you like, but keep in mind that if you change it when it's still good, you're just wasting your own hard-earned money and your own precious time. It's totally up to you, and you certainly aren't hurting the car by changing the oil more often than necessary.
Note that the oil life monitor assumes you are using full synthetic oil. Conventional oil will not last as long.
You're welcome to change your oil as often as you like, but keep in mind that if you change it when it's still good, you're just wasting your own hard-earned money and your own precious time. It's totally up to you, and you certainly aren't hurting the car by changing the oil more often than necessary.
05-18-2010, 04:13 PM
#20
however that does not change the fact that you are free to do whatever you like
05-18-2010, 09:53 PM
#22
are you being serious?
you drive your car for 60 thousand miles
change oil every 3k, thats 20 oil changes and 20 dry starts
every 5k, thats 12 changes and dry starts
considerably less over a period of time, if you doubt that a dry start and your car running without any oil pressure for the 5-10 seconds it takes to get pressure causes SOME damage feel free to do a search
granted this will not cause much damage at all, very slight. but because it does cause some damage it is not the BEST option and makes it incorrect to say that
you drive your car for 60 thousand miles
change oil every 3k, thats 20 oil changes and 20 dry starts
every 5k, thats 12 changes and dry starts
considerably less over a period of time, if you doubt that a dry start and your car running without any oil pressure for the 5-10 seconds it takes to get pressure causes SOME damage feel free to do a search
granted this will not cause much damage at all, very slight. but because it does cause some damage it is not the BEST option and makes it incorrect to say that
05-19-2010, 06:36 AM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ohio
Posts: 4,482
what do you mean "dry start"??? oil is added before starting. and it runs to the same place that the oil goes when a car sits for a long period of time" the oil pan". not to mention when adding oil it lubricates on its way down to the pan. maybe im not on the right page here. explain to me a "dry start".
06-08-2010, 03:29 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SouthWest Territory
Posts: 12
Oil change
Well, on all the engines I have ever built (I lost count) the routine is to change out the oil before the first 500 miles due to any metal particles that might be in the system. This was only a precaution back years ago for all the after market muscle car builders that did their own machining. In reality there should not be any metal particles in the system if the engine was machined and assembled correctly. it is assembled in the same manner as a Doctor does surgery, very sterol and clean. I have never had a engine go bad because of not changing the oil nor have I seen one wear out before its time. Now I have seen engines that I have pick up from people that never changed their oil. You can believe this or not but every one of those engines showed the least among of wear then all those where the owners were so religious in changing their oil ever 3,000 miles. I had one ford v-8 engine that had one owner, he stated that he never once changed the oil from the first day he bought it brand new from the dealer ship. that engine had over 200,000 mile on it. I took it apart and was shocked at what I found..... that was only a max of .001' wear on the rod and main journals and no ridge at all on the top of the cylinder walls, "it was like brand new-no wear any where". there was caked burnt oil all over the inside of that engine that I had to chip off with a hammer and chisel.
Now I would like to believe the by now the engineering group at the manufacturing plant has their **** together on these area. I mean... come now, its no longer rocket science!!! its a routine now/procedure. I HOPE To God!!! LOL.... The assembly processes has all of these concerns and issues of the past already corrected with procedures in place to insure the engine is clean and free of any machining metal particles, besides, that is what the oil filter is doing, cleaning every drop before it goes to any bearing. Now if there is any particles in the system then they came from the moving part them self and are all ready in the bearing.
I believe we can be rest assured that running these engine up to 15,000 mile will not place any more wear to any of the bearings or cylinder walls then it will by doing oil changes every 3,000 mile. Doing all those dry start-ups that do cause excessive wear to the engine bearings is a bad thing and will cause excessive wear.
Just a word of wisdom. never do an oil change on a cold engine. run it first to a normal operating temperature to get oil on all of the bearings, then change it. It is far far better to have a little old oil with the new then it is to start a dry cold engine.
Although there is some oil on the bearings before a normal start up it is not enough to protect the bearing or the crank, it still takes more then a second to get the oil moving. That is alot of time and due to the high torque/HP of the engine design there is an extreme amount of friction, there is not enough oil to protect the surface of the bearing as it does when the engine is running. this will cause wear to the engine, this is part of the expected life and wear of the engine.
Now when the oil is drained and a new filter is installed the time it takes to move the oil from the oil pan to the first bearing has now increased dramatically there for has also multipled the normal wear by more then five time, especially if it was done on a cold engine in the first place. The oil has to travel up through the oil pump and then to the empty oil filter (fill it) and then to the first bearing, then more time to the last bearing and cylinder walls, cam lifters and valve guides and seals. I hope you get the picture.
Never ever do an oil change on a cold engine, run it first to normal operating temp. A cold engine means that the oil has had more time to run off the bearings. Old oil is better then no oil!
never high rev an cold engine during the cold months on a start up, any start up.
The only exceptions to the 15,000 mile oild change set by the manufacture would be to the driving conditions the engine went through. example: If the engine spent 70 % or more of the 15,000 mile at a crusing speed at normal running temp. then the oil should be in good shap and some what clean. this means the viscosity of the oil is still maintaining no less then 10-W and is still protecting the engine as if it was new oil. It just has some carbon mixed in it, carbon at the particle size that it is does not hurt the engine nor cause excessive wear. The particles are small enough to go through the filter then is is not going to do any harm. Now with filters- they do not stop working just because they may have, lets say they have 20,000 miles on them, they are still filtering just as good as a brand new one. if it stops filtering then it will plug up and the element inside would collapse. You can install a new filter every day for the next year and the oil will still turn dark as if there was only one used.
Example II: Now if the engine is going through more then 50% of stop and go driving conditions and also harsh environment and has seem high temp then yes the oil will need to be changed more often. Even with these types of driving conditions of stop and go, as long as the engine has not over heated or seen high temp on a daily bases then the oil shold continue to protect, it would be best to go by the color at this point. infact if any engine that should over heat the first thing that needs to be done is to change the oil ASAP, there is a very good chance the oil has broken down.
Again; engine that have seen a cold dry start-up every 3,000 will have far more excessive wear then an engine that has 50,000 mile with the same oil in it as long as it has not overheated, just with small fill ups to maintain the level. I have seen this so many time over the years.
Now I would like to believe the by now the engineering group at the manufacturing plant has their **** together on these area. I mean... come now, its no longer rocket science!!! its a routine now/procedure. I HOPE To God!!! LOL.... The assembly processes has all of these concerns and issues of the past already corrected with procedures in place to insure the engine is clean and free of any machining metal particles, besides, that is what the oil filter is doing, cleaning every drop before it goes to any bearing. Now if there is any particles in the system then they came from the moving part them self and are all ready in the bearing.
I believe we can be rest assured that running these engine up to 15,000 mile will not place any more wear to any of the bearings or cylinder walls then it will by doing oil changes every 3,000 mile. Doing all those dry start-ups that do cause excessive wear to the engine bearings is a bad thing and will cause excessive wear.
Just a word of wisdom. never do an oil change on a cold engine. run it first to a normal operating temperature to get oil on all of the bearings, then change it. It is far far better to have a little old oil with the new then it is to start a dry cold engine.
Although there is some oil on the bearings before a normal start up it is not enough to protect the bearing or the crank, it still takes more then a second to get the oil moving. That is alot of time and due to the high torque/HP of the engine design there is an extreme amount of friction, there is not enough oil to protect the surface of the bearing as it does when the engine is running. this will cause wear to the engine, this is part of the expected life and wear of the engine.
Now when the oil is drained and a new filter is installed the time it takes to move the oil from the oil pan to the first bearing has now increased dramatically there for has also multipled the normal wear by more then five time, especially if it was done on a cold engine in the first place. The oil has to travel up through the oil pump and then to the empty oil filter (fill it) and then to the first bearing, then more time to the last bearing and cylinder walls, cam lifters and valve guides and seals. I hope you get the picture.
Never ever do an oil change on a cold engine, run it first to normal operating temp. A cold engine means that the oil has had more time to run off the bearings. Old oil is better then no oil!
never high rev an cold engine during the cold months on a start up, any start up.
The only exceptions to the 15,000 mile oild change set by the manufacture would be to the driving conditions the engine went through. example: If the engine spent 70 % or more of the 15,000 mile at a crusing speed at normal running temp. then the oil should be in good shap and some what clean. this means the viscosity of the oil is still maintaining no less then 10-W and is still protecting the engine as if it was new oil. It just has some carbon mixed in it, carbon at the particle size that it is does not hurt the engine nor cause excessive wear. The particles are small enough to go through the filter then is is not going to do any harm. Now with filters- they do not stop working just because they may have, lets say they have 20,000 miles on them, they are still filtering just as good as a brand new one. if it stops filtering then it will plug up and the element inside would collapse. You can install a new filter every day for the next year and the oil will still turn dark as if there was only one used.
Example II: Now if the engine is going through more then 50% of stop and go driving conditions and also harsh environment and has seem high temp then yes the oil will need to be changed more often. Even with these types of driving conditions of stop and go, as long as the engine has not over heated or seen high temp on a daily bases then the oil shold continue to protect, it would be best to go by the color at this point. infact if any engine that should over heat the first thing that needs to be done is to change the oil ASAP, there is a very good chance the oil has broken down.
Again; engine that have seen a cold dry start-up every 3,000 will have far more excessive wear then an engine that has 50,000 mile with the same oil in it as long as it has not overheated, just with small fill ups to maintain the level. I have seen this so many time over the years.
Last edited by santiagocabral; 06-11-2010 at 09:32 AM.
06-08-2010, 03:45 PM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SouthWest Territory
Posts: 12
what do you mean "dry start"??? oil is added before starting. and it runs to the same place that the oil goes when a car sits for a long period of time" the oil pan". not to mention when adding oil it lubricates on its way down to the pan. maybe im not on the right page here. explain to me a "dry start".
Now when the oil is drained and a new filter is installed the time it takes to move the oil from the oil pan to the first bearing has now increased and now has also multipled the normal wear more then five time, especially if it was done on a cold engine in the first place. Now the oil has to travel up through the oil pump and then to the oil filter and then get to the first bearing, then more time to the last bearing and cylinder walls, cam lifters and valve guides and seals.
never do an oil change on a cold engine, run it first to normal operating temp. A cold engine means that the oil has had more time to run off the bearings. Old oil is better then no oil!
never high rev an cold engine during the cold months.
Last edited by santiagocabral; 06-08-2010 at 03:53 PM.
06-09-2010, 06:43 AM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ohio
Posts: 4,482
ok. so as far as oil being in the pan and not in the bearings, how would a oil change differ from a car that has been sitting for a few months? in both, the oil is at the lowest position possible right? the oil pan. technically, wouldnt it be worse to start a motor that has been sitting for a while, compared to a motor that has had fresh oil put in it? atleast the fresh oil change lubricates on its way down, where as the sitting car hasnt had anything lubricating it.
06-10-2010, 05:47 PM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SouthWest Territory
Posts: 12
everybody's got an opinion....my 92 Camry 4 cyl from new had that treatment....became the family beater...early oil change(first 100 miles) and synthetic from the get go and at 623,000kms I handed it to my best buddy cause he has a bad string of luck...just turned over 700,000kms....guess all those "dry starts' never hurt it much....Not too worried about hurting my LS3 with too much maintenance...Oh and my 94 Z 28 had the same regimen and my LT1 never suffered much...oh and my C5 had that regimen.....and on and on and on....DONT wait till 13K to change your first oil...That is ridiculous IMHO.
The fact about the oil changes is a fact, to many cold dry starts will cause excessive wear, but you will never see any thing from it, even at 700,000 kms. the only engine that will blow from this type of excessive wear are those that are used mostly on the strip and very hard street driving. these are very hight HP engines. little 4 bangers have far less friction then V-8s so they will have a longer running life time. most little 4 bangers are very hard to blow because they just don't have the ***** as the big boy engines have. The only time a normal person on the street, "that includes all those wanta be's who think they'r big boys" will never see the results or the cost form all these over board oil changes is when they take it in the shop for an overhaul and are given the cost of all the mechining and replacing they are going to have to do. most places just recommend a new short block in this case.
All the big boys with all the big boy toys that do all of their own machine work that I know, know all of this. Read my blog "Oil Change"
Last edited by santiagocabral; 06-11-2010 at 09:36 AM.
06-10-2010, 06:11 PM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SouthWest Territory
Posts: 12
everybody's got an opinion....my 92 Camry 4 cyl from new had that treatment....became the family beater...early oil change(first 100 miles) and synthetic from the get go and at 623,000kms I handed it to my best buddy cause he has a bad string of luck...just turned over 700,000kms....guess all those "dry starts' never hurt it much....Not too worried about hurting my LS3 with too much maintenance...Oh and my 94 Z 28 had the same regimen and my LT1 never suffered much...oh and my C5 had that regimen.....and on and on and on....DONT wait till 13K to change your first oil...That is ridiculous IMHO.
ok. so as far as oil being in the pan and not in the bearings, how would a oil change differ from a car that has been sitting for a few months? in both, the oil is at the lowest position possible right? the oil pan. technically, wouldnt it be worse to start a motor that has been sitting for a while, compared to a motor that has had fresh oil put in it? atleast the fresh oil change lubricates on its way down, where as the sitting car hasnt had anything lubricating it.
Stop wearing so much about it and don't listen to all the back yard mechanic/want-a-be's. Change the oil as the manufacture has set it to, but also go by your driving conditions and engine performace-meaning running temp.
enjoy you Reborn All American Muscle Car and have a few cold ones. But not at the same time!
Last edited by santiagocabral; 06-10-2010 at 06:13 PM.
06-10-2010, 06:15 PM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Crossville, TN
Posts: 486
I didn't read every post throughly, but blackstone labs is a great idea if you are concerned.
Most synthetics can do 7-8K easily. A guy did a 20K+ OCI on a camaro a few years ago and had no ill effects.
But... 13k... that is a long time on the factory fill. Your filter should be removing any particles, but all that assembly lube usually fills the pleats with its gunky-ness. If it were me, I would have changed much earlier for this first fill, then do 6-9k drains depending on driving conditions.
Most synthetics can do 7-8K easily. A guy did a 20K+ OCI on a camaro a few years ago and had no ill effects.
But... 13k... that is a long time on the factory fill. Your filter should be removing any particles, but all that assembly lube usually fills the pleats with its gunky-ness. If it were me, I would have changed much earlier for this first fill, then do 6-9k drains depending on driving conditions.
06-10-2010, 10:27 PM
#30
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Okemos, MI
Posts: 9,479
Okay, old conversation, but let's resume where we left off.
An oil change shouldn't be a dry start, because you're supposed to do it while the engine is still warm. Unless you take weeks to complete an oil change, the top end and all of the bearings will not be anything remotely close to "dry". There's still plenty of oil up there. Also, one side gets doused pretty heavily with oil when you pour it in. That's not worked into the bearings, but the residual old oil is still there for the ~5 seconds it takes for oil pressure to build once you start the engine.
If you're really a stickler, fill up the new filter with new oil before you put it on. That knocks the ~5 seconds down to ~3. I do it on my Camaro because the filter installs vertically and it's easy. On my Bonneville the filter installs horizontally, so I just put a little bit in.
An oil change shouldn't be a dry start, because you're supposed to do it while the engine is still warm. Unless you take weeks to complete an oil change, the top end and all of the bearings will not be anything remotely close to "dry". There's still plenty of oil up there. Also, one side gets doused pretty heavily with oil when you pour it in. That's not worked into the bearings, but the residual old oil is still there for the ~5 seconds it takes for oil pressure to build once you start the engine.
If you're really a stickler, fill up the new filter with new oil before you put it on. That knocks the ~5 seconds down to ~3. I do it on my Camaro because the filter installs vertically and it's easy. On my Bonneville the filter installs horizontally, so I just put a little bit in.