L76 as 'base V8'
11-10-2007, 09:53 PM
#31
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I'll admit I overlooked the truck version of the L76 when looking into this earlier, so yes there is a US version of the L76 but it's only used in trucks/SUVs. The version in the G8 however does use some components that are specific to Holden and are not used in the truck versions of the engine. So again, it looks to me like there would have to be some sort of changing in supply lines and assembly in order to get the G8 version of the engine into the Camaro. It's not impossible, but it does actually have some cost associated with making it happen unless you want to just drop the truck version straight into the Camaro (it wouldn't bother me any, but I'm sure someone would complain about a truck motor in a car...LOL).
For me personally, I'll buy as much power as I can afford when the car comes out. If it ends up being a V6 that outruns a Mustang GT, gets better gas mileage, and is likely cheaper, then so be it. I'd prefer the V8 but it's not a deal breaker. However, for the sake of this discussion I do know that it is a deal breaker for a lot of people so it would be nice to see the Camaro with a V8 that is at or below the Mustang GT price point. As to whether that engine needs to be an L76 variant or an LS3 variant, I don't know. Which ever gets the car in the driver's hands the cheapest would be my choice. And I will agree that the power rating of such an engine option needs to be low enough that the Camaro insurance quote is equivalent to a Mustang GT since many people do get insurance quotes before buying and add that to the cost of the car.
As far as Camaro pricing versus the G8, it's not a truly fair comparison since the G8 is shipped over from Australia while the Camaro is built in North America. Add to it that the G8 "should" have more in the way of price increasing content in the car since it's up-market from the Camaro and I could easily see the Camaro coming in several thousand less than the G8 for the equivalent powertrain.
11-11-2007, 08:42 AM
#32
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First of all, this is a very good thread. Too many of the 5th Gen threads seem to go bad after a few posts. 
One thing to consider is that the G8 is schedule to be produced in North America after the first year. So the thought that the Camaro would use the same engine is somewhat sound.
Like a previous poster said, GM is anxious to produce this car, sort of a "halo" product for the Chevy division. Chevy doesn't have the Solstice like Pontiac and needs an affordable RWD performance car for it's image. They want to keep the price as low as possible and yet keep it above it's competitors. I don't think GM really cares what engine "name" it puts in the Camaro, so long as it is cheap and out performs the Mustang and upcoming Challenger. If the L76 does the job, and does it cheaply, it will probably be put in the Camaro.
One thing to consider is that the G8 is schedule to be produced in North America after the first year. So the thought that the Camaro would use the same engine is somewhat sound.
Like a previous poster said, GM is anxious to produce this car, sort of a "halo" product for the Chevy division. Chevy doesn't have the Solstice like Pontiac and needs an affordable RWD performance car for it's image. They want to keep the price as low as possible and yet keep it above it's competitors. I don't think GM really cares what engine "name" it puts in the Camaro, so long as it is cheap and out performs the Mustang and upcoming Challenger. If the L76 does the job, and does it cheaply, it will probably be put in the Camaro.
11-11-2007, 07:13 PM
#33
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Correct, the L76 will have to be part of the Zeta collection anyway. There will have to be a V8 for the Zeta sedans. The LS3 cannot and will not be the ONLY V8 available for G8 and Impala. There will need to be another lower output V8 engine that will be under 400hp and compete with the 5.7 Hemi and Ford's replacement.
Something near 380? just thinking aloud
11-11-2007, 09:08 PM
#35
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Lots of people will want that, but it doesnt look like its going to happen.
Enthusiast = V8 and a V8 = 400+hp now.
What less? Settle with the V6, its makes good power.
Still want an 8 cyl? Mustang or Challenger will be your ride.
It has NOTHING to do with cost of how to build it. If anything, the LS3 could be a SS trim engine, and GM could tag more gear with the SS, increaseing profits of an already increased base price over the L76 equiped "RS" Camaro.
If GM will make the same money on an L76 Camaro and an LS3 Camaro, being equally equiped, then it would only BENIFIT GM to sell the higher hp (read: higher content) V8 model at a higher price, to INCREASE profits!!
Its a WIN WIN!!
Enthuisats want a 430hp V8? WHAMO 32k gets you a base SS with a LS3 making 430hp!!
Want a V8, but dont want to pay the penalty, of both insurance and gas that comes with the LS3, and dont want to settle for a V6? L76 Camaro is YOUR car!
Either way, GM retains the sale!! IT WOULDNT COST GM A DIME!! NOT A SINGLE DIME!!
A simple recert of a lower hp engine, which will probably be done anyway for Zeta since the L76 seems like its going to be the base V8 in other Zeta sedans, the cost would be nothing to GM, zero.
You have a 360-370hp V8 Camaro for the SAME PRICE as a 305hp Camaro SEVEN YEARS BEFORE!! AND BETTER GAS MILAGE!! Such a no brainer.
Enthusiast = V8 and a V8 = 400+hp now.
What less? Settle with the V6, its makes good power.
Still want an 8 cyl? Mustang or Challenger will be your ride.
It has NOTHING to do with cost of how to build it. If anything, the LS3 could be a SS trim engine, and GM could tag more gear with the SS, increaseing profits of an already increased base price over the L76 equiped "RS" Camaro.
If GM will make the same money on an L76 Camaro and an LS3 Camaro, being equally equiped, then it would only BENIFIT GM to sell the higher hp (read: higher content) V8 model at a higher price, to INCREASE profits!!
Its a WIN WIN!!
Enthuisats want a 430hp V8? WHAMO 32k gets you a base SS with a LS3 making 430hp!!
Want a V8, but dont want to pay the penalty, of both insurance and gas that comes with the LS3, and dont want to settle for a V6? L76 Camaro is YOUR car!
Either way, GM retains the sale!! IT WOULDNT COST GM A DIME!! NOT A SINGLE DIME!!
A simple recert of a lower hp engine, which will probably be done anyway for Zeta since the L76 seems like its going to be the base V8 in other Zeta sedans, the cost would be nothing to GM, zero.
You have a 360-370hp V8 Camaro for the SAME PRICE as a 305hp Camaro SEVEN YEARS BEFORE!! AND BETTER GAS MILAGE!! Such a no brainer.
Correct, the L76 will have to be part of the Zeta collection anyway. There will have to be a V8 for the Zeta sedans. The LS3 cannot and will not be the ONLY V8 available for G8 and Impala. There will need to be another lower output V8 engine that will be under 400hp and compete with the 5.7 Hemi and Ford's replacement.
BTW RS is an appearance trim package, maybe even available on the top model.
SS is not
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 11-11-2007 at 09:22 PM.
11-12-2007, 01:08 AM
#36
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LS3 is better then the L76 how? Power?
L76 could give us a E85, AFM, and VVT all in one package. Would help Camaro's green image as well.
420hp is overkill for a V8 Sedan for normal driving. Maybe in a performance trim, but an average V8 sedan. Gas prices and insurance rates again.
L76 could give us a E85, AFM, and VVT all in one package. Would help Camaro's green image as well.
420hp is overkill for a V8 Sedan for normal driving. Maybe in a performance trim, but an average V8 sedan. Gas prices and insurance rates again.
11-12-2007, 01:34 AM
#37
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LS3 is better then the L76 how? Power?
L76 could give us a E85, AFM, and VVT all in one package. Would help Camaro's green image as well.
420hp is overkill for a V8 Sedan for normal driving. Maybe in a performance trim, but an average V8 sedan. Gas prices and insurance rates again.
L76 could give us a E85, AFM, and VVT all in one package. Would help Camaro's green image as well.
420hp is overkill for a V8 Sedan for normal driving. Maybe in a performance trim, but an average V8 sedan. Gas prices and insurance rates again.
honestly e85 sounds cool, but when was the last time you saw one at the pump. Id take it in an LS3, if not who cares. I still dont see much benefit of an L76 over an LS3 especially when you said the costs would be the same to GM. Bumping up the LS3 price would be stupid. Again, GM can deliver a better product at the same price, its time to pony up. The days of the Vette rule should be gone also. Or any other reason given for intentionally producing less than you can because of outdated internal pollitics.
The only thing that would make it worthwhile would be MPG or that the LS3 cost GM alot more to put in the car.
11-12-2007, 01:54 AM
#38
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If u guys think your getting a base V8 Camaro @ 430 hp priced like a 300 hp Mustang Gt , you really need to step away from the crackpipe now . For those who want the Mustang GT priced Camaro , ya better start getting familiar with the 2nd level V6 model . Competively priced with the Mustang doesnt mean a Camaro competively matched to the GT has V8 engine .
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; 11-12-2007 at 01:56 AM.
11-12-2007, 11:37 AM
#39
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The Challenger will hit early next year with the 6.1 and at least 425hp.
The Mustang is rumored to be up in the 350hp range by '09, but heck, the V6's are 58hp down to the Accord/Camry, so hp isn't a big issue for Ford.
Now, if the G8 with the 360hp L76 is $30k, we can at least see the L76 Camaro coming in below $30k quite easily. But, GM will probably want more than 10hp over the Mustang (if it hits 350hp by then), and won't want to be 125hp shy of the Challenger -- so the 360hp of the L76 might not be "enough" to keep up with the competition.
I think the point everyone is hoping for (hope being the operative word here) is, if the LS3 isn't that much more expensive to produce, that GM would drop in the 6.2L engine. -- even if they detuned it a little, and still charge around $30k for it. This would be preferable (for us) than trying to crank up the L76.
What fuels this hope even more is when you think about the "big dog" engine, 430hp may not be enough of a difference from the 360hp in the G8 (especially if they up the hp when it gets put in the Camaro). Now, do they try to tune the LS3 to 450hp+ (would even that be enough?) and use that for the "big dog" -- or do they go nuts, and use one of the 6.2L blown motors?
If they use a blown motor, that leaves room for the LS3 in the "base V8" car.
Yes, it is a long shot, but we are enthusiasts here, so hp greed is part of it
.In the end, though, I think GM will bump the L76 to 375hp or so and price it at $28.5k.
Still within $2k of the Mustang with at least a 25hp advantage, yet should be enough to get a G8-level quality interior. The 50hp+ deficit to the Challenger will be close enough given the $8k price difference. The Z28 will then eclipse the Challenger in hp (even the expected 6.4) and be around $40k.
Just my $0.02
Last edited by Rampant; 11-12-2007 at 11:46 AM.
11-12-2007, 01:43 PM
#41
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And, yes it will be bigger (and heavier), but people will always say "but it has more hp".
But, if the 6.1L is near $40k, that would be Z28 territory.
So, GM just might have the L76 @ 375hp and bump the LS3 (or equivalent) to 450hp for the Z28.
11-12-2007, 02:14 PM
#42
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umm depends on what you call entry level. If you mean entry level to be V6 then no it wont. If not I would not rule out that an LS3 or detuned LS3 will be if it is put in Camaro. I wouldnt be so sure alot of different V8s being in this car. Variants and detuned of one motor are my bet.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 11-12-2007 at 02:50 PM.
11-12-2007, 02:24 PM
#43
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They are auctioning off the first couple of Challengers -- and the specs say 6.1L, and the current 6.1 gets 425hp. (source)
And, yes it will be bigger (and heavier), but people will always say "but it has more hp".
But, if the 6.1L is near $40k, that would be Z28 territory.
So, GM just might have the L76 @ 375hp and bump the LS3 (or equivalent) to 450hp for the Z28.
And, yes it will be bigger (and heavier), but people will always say "but it has more hp".
But, if the 6.1L is near $40k, that would be Z28 territory.
So, GM just might have the L76 @ 375hp and bump the LS3 (or equivalent) to 450hp for the Z28.
SANTA MONICA, Calif. — Its official debut is still months away, but details are starting to leak out about the 2008 Dodge Challenger. According to Automotive News, Dodge plans to roll out the Challenger in two phases. A 5,000-car limited-run 2008 Challenger SRT will be unveiled at the 2008 Chicago Auto Show in February. The SRT will use the 6.1-liter Hemi mated to a five-speed automatic.
For the 2009 model year, Dodge will expand the Challenger lineup to include both 6.1- and 5.7-liter Hemi versions to be shown at the 2008 New York Auto Show in March. A six-speed manual will be added and possibly a dual-clutch transmission. Dodge will increase the Challenger's production output to 30,000-35,000 cars in 2009, says Automotive News.
What this means to you: Unless you're willing to pay up for the top-of-the-line SRT version, you won't be able to buy a Challenger until the 2009 model year.
For the 2009 model year, Dodge will expand the Challenger lineup to include both 6.1- and 5.7-liter Hemi versions to be shown at the 2008 New York Auto Show in March. A six-speed manual will be added and possibly a dual-clutch transmission. Dodge will increase the Challenger's production output to 30,000-35,000 cars in 2009, says Automotive News.
What this means to you: Unless you're willing to pay up for the top-of-the-line SRT version, you won't be able to buy a Challenger until the 2009 model year.
11-12-2007, 02:53 PM
#44
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But, I thought the new Challenger was on the new LY platform. I know the concept was built on the LX, but I thought the Challenger was to be the first on the LY. Any confirmation of the platform?
11-12-2007, 03:24 PM
#45
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Technically yes its the LY platform but its not called that .. its called the LC (custom) until the rest of the models are moved over to LY..
Really the LY is just the next progression of the LX with minor changes/improvements.
Back on topic, the 6.1 Challenger is the "top dawg", just the base LS3 can whip it because of weight(Challenger IS over 4000lbs). The 5.7 Challenger is the Mustang GT and the base Camaro V8 contender .. and its very under powered compared to the Mustang and even a L76 Camaro due to low HP (330-340 by 09/10) and the weight.
Mustang will be getting a boost to about 350ish, again the L76 or the LS3 could work against it.
Personally I see the L76 just because it give Chevy the ad edge on "we have the most standard HP" campaign and I really don't think an LS3 will come in under 30k (we can hope but I'm not holding my breath). Time will tell and we will all live with what they give us. As long as its a V8 and a 2 door with the conceptish styling, its sold for me, its just not in my driveway yet.
Really the LY is just the next progression of the LX with minor changes/improvements.
Back on topic, the 6.1 Challenger is the "top dawg", just the base LS3 can whip it because of weight(Challenger IS over 4000lbs). The 5.7 Challenger is the Mustang GT and the base Camaro V8 contender .. and its very under powered compared to the Mustang and even a L76 Camaro due to low HP (330-340 by 09/10) and the weight.
Mustang will be getting a boost to about 350ish, again the L76 or the LS3 could work against it.
Personally I see the L76 just because it give Chevy the ad edge on "we have the most standard HP" campaign and I really don't think an LS3 will come in under 30k (we can hope but I'm not holding my breath). Time will tell and we will all live with what they give us. As long as its a V8 and a 2 door with the conceptish styling, its sold for me, its just not in my driveway yet.