supernova1972

Ok that makes sense. Just trying to make an easier comparison because obviously they dont get my other arguments on why a small v8 would cost too much.

RussStang

Over the idea that a small v8 is a poor idea? Obviously GM thought it was as well, as their market research showed too little regard for it to labor the production costs of an as of yet totally undeveloped Camaro v8. This isn't the 80s, and the new Camaro isn't a 3rd gen. The idea of a mid level v8 has a place, and it is 3 decades ago. A 300 horse v6 and a 325 horse v8 are totally redundant.

I have heard about a million times more people psyched about the fact that a base v8 car that has 426 hp over the "problem" of a weak v8. If fact, I only seem to hear the argument for a midlevel v8 from guys on this board.

JeremyNYR

stop letting your facts and logic get in the way of your imagination! haha... I can understand someone not "getting it" at first about how creating a lower powered v8 would make GM incurr upfront cost and not allow them to charge less for the vehicle once produced. What I can not understand is why people hold on to their initial thoughts and even praise their own thoughts as imaginative even when the facts of the matter are layed out so clearly by some of the more knowledgable members of this site. It's okay to learn from people here. you don't have to fight your side of an argument to the bitter end out of pride.

RussStang

I can understand the argument people are trying to make, but I don't think it would actually flourish in a real world situation. The popular argument, at least on this website, was that the 3rd gen 305s sold really well, so why not have something similar with the 5th gen? Problem is, now is not then. Assembly lines are not structured the same, and v6s are not as weak as they were once upon a time.

Another popular argument was that horsepower scared people away from the 4th gen, which was a total load of crap. The 4th gens were rated at a very modest "305" and later 310 hp in their base form. When the redesigned S197 Mustang GT came out with a 300hp rating, it sure didn't seem to scare anyone away at all. The G8 boasts 362hp in V8 trim, and that isn't hurting it's sales either. The reason I bring this up is that the logic was a milder v8 would keep people from being frightened away from the Camaro (which as I stated I have serious doubts about), but even if a low power v8 came out, it would still be above the 4th gens rated hp values. Probably would have to be at least 350hp, or it would risk being redundant with the v6.

Guys, the v6 car doesn't suck anymore. It is putting out more power than a stock LT1, and almost double what a 305TBI(the low power 3rd gen v8) back in the day was putting out at peak. No need for another v8, except in the eventual top Camaro model.

JeremyNYR

While I can not back up this opinion with any facts whatsoever, I think the seating position/view of the road hurt 4th gens. The windshield has such a rake and the hood slopes down to the point where you can't easily judge where the front of the car is. I know the first time I drove one, it took some getting used to. I can see a lot of buyers that cross-shopped the Mustang V6 to be turned off by that. I also agree with your thoughts about why the 305 worked in the 80s and early 90s, but doesn't serve a purpose now. this V6 doesn't appear to be lacking like previous ones did at all... I'm expecting good runs against them with my LT1 powered 3rd gen.

RussStang

Only time will tell how well they run against an LT1. I know a lot of the LT1 4th gen owners on here get irritated at even the possibility of the new v6 running with one, but there really aren't any solid numbers on the v6 cars to make any conclusions. In theory they seem like a good run with an LT1, although the LT1 would probably more forgiving of driver error.

I would also speculate that you are at least somewhat correct. The 4th gens more "extremist" attitude probably pushed a lot of potential buyers away.

SSCamaro99_3

The arguement for a mid level V8 that runs on regular fuel, may save you a whopping $12 a week in fuel costs (see my post earlier), and offers no savings on insurance; makes my head hurt.

supernova1972

Exactly right. They have no argument besides they want one.

Oh and I started as an LT1 guy, well i still am an lt1 guy, and i think it is awesome how GM is putting out these numbers with a v6. I have no problem with it.

JasonD

Nothing wrong with wanting something. I myself would like to see a "budget" C6 Corvette. Basically, a stripper 'Vette that has no frills, no leather, all performance for thousands less than the ordinary one. I won't hold my breath, though.

supernova1972

Very true. But dismissing all logical reasons against it because you want something is different.

King Moose SS

Most guys on this forum don't think like normal customers out there. We think about power/cost, and things like that. Most people see V8 camaro = Poor MPG's and expensive 93 octane. They see V6 camaro and they think, why not just buy a malibu. The reason many of us think that there should be a 360ish hp V8 is so that there is a mid-priced camaro between 1SS and LS.

Running on 87 is a plus, and good MPG's from the V8 is a plus. I know that the 25mpg (on the SS) is exceptional in todays tougher EPA requirements, but we know d*** well GM can do more. All of us on this forum know 30mpgs on a 2 ton car can be done with V8 making 360hp.

Whether you agree or disagree on a lower level V8 is another thing. GM has the man power to do this. The cost can be up to them, so much waste goes on in this company its a shame that they can't be able to put some R&D in stuff that really matters.

RussStang

There is a mid priced Camaro. It is called the SS. Price a Mustang GT. The cars are mostly similar in price. The Camaro (and Mustang) cost more now then their previous generations did. Call it bad economy, poor dollar value, whatever. The SS is NOT the top level Camaro. That has yet to be announced. Your Malibu line strikes me as pretty ridiculous. People buy v6 Camaros for the same reason they buy v6 Mustangs, Tiberons, etc., because they think they look cool. They are two completely different demographics.

You just stated people see v8 and think 93+ octane (don't know anyone who actually thinks that), and bad mpgs(this one is a gimme). The stigma is going to be the exact same on a midlevel v8. v8s are v8s.

I am not at all convinced a detuned 360hp v8 is going to get significantly better gas mileage than the ls3 anyway, at least in driving around town. The EPA numbers could largely be the same. If GM could make a 2 ton sedan run 30mpgs with a v8 making 360hp with the way the EPA rates their cars now, the G8 would do so. It falls pretty far.

I agree with the waste comment. And a "midlevel" v8 doesn't really matter. It would probably cost similar to an LS3 to produce the thing (assuming volume for this particular motor could be shared on other platforms, and what would use it?), would have to be certified (another pain in the ***), and likely return less money on each purchase, as the brunt of the LS3 powertrain will likely remain on the midlevel, and one would assume GM would have to charge much less for a midlevel v8 to help encourage it's purchase. GM has the man power to do a lot of things, but this has been talked about to death, likely considered many times within GM, and dismissed.

RussStang

Exactly. Progress is progress. Can't hold on to the past forever. The LS1 was awesome for it's time, and it is still pretty good, but stuff is catching up to it. Nissan's Z car is right behind it. Wonder how long for the CTS gets a boost in power. It is only a matter of time. Although until I see times for the v6 cars, I am reserved in my judgement of a heads up race between one and an LT1 car.

supernova1972

Yes most guys here do think as normal customers. Just because we are gearheads doesnt mean we dont. 360 hp in this car wont give you 30mpg. At most it would gain one or two. No one cares if you know d*** well GM could do it. Where are yopur facts to back this up? And as stated, why doesnt the G8 GT with its 362hp do that? If GM may have been able to make an v8 Camaro that got 30mpg they would have. But they didnt, they made a great powered v6 that gets 29 and a mid level v8 that gets 26, and a top level that has yet to be released. Once again you arnt using any facts to support your 30mpg in a 2 ton v8 car can be done argument.

supernova1972

Exactly right, 07 up 350s run pretty good with LS1's and i believe it is only a matter of time before a v6 comes out that takes a stock LS1. The old guys used to think these new muscle cars didnt hold a candle to their monster motor cars, now v6's are turning better times stock than they did.