A word for Fbodfather (Scott)
10-20-2007, 08:51 PM
#46
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yelm, Wa USA
Posts: 2,446
Am I understanding you correctly?
Are you saying that the "average Joe" who isn't brand loyal is "...not going to care about the price of the car..."? If someone can't afford to pay $5K-$10K over MSRP they would buy used?
IF that is what you're saying....well, sorry, but you're
. That's like saying if someone can afford to pay $130,000 for a house SURELY they can afford to pay $170,000.....if not they should be looking at renting a 1 bedroom apartment. Doesn't make much sense.
No one in their right mind would pay $30,000 for a V6 or $35,000 for a V8 Camaro when they could get, for example, a V6 Mustang for $20,000 or the V8 for $25,000.
ONCE AGAIN.....I'm talking about the "average" consumer who is in the market to buy a "sporty" new car, NOT the die hard Camaro fan who has no problem going out of town or waiting a year if necessary.
As far as Mustangs going for $20K over MSRP and Vettes for $90K......I'm speechless
. I knew Washington was expensive, but that's absolutely insane.
Are you saying that the "average Joe" who isn't brand loyal is "...not going to care about the price of the car..."? If someone can't afford to pay $5K-$10K over MSRP they would buy used?
IF that is what you're saying....well, sorry, but you're
. That's like saying if someone can afford to pay $130,000 for a house SURELY they can afford to pay $170,000.....if not they should be looking at renting a 1 bedroom apartment. Doesn't make much sense.No one in their right mind would pay $30,000 for a V6 or $35,000 for a V8 Camaro when they could get, for example, a V6 Mustang for $20,000 or the V8 for $25,000.
ONCE AGAIN.....I'm talking about the "average" consumer who is in the market to buy a "sporty" new car, NOT the die hard Camaro fan who has no problem going out of town or waiting a year if necessary.
As far as Mustangs going for $20K over MSRP and Vettes for $90K......I'm speechless
. I knew Washington was expensive, but that's absolutely insane.I see this every time I go in to a dealership, is that young person all excited about owning the newest hottest things around, not minding that they are paying the NORTHWEST DEALER DELIVERY CHARGE (thats how most of our dealership list the mark up). Just because they are young, or even being a women the salesmen think they can talk these guys out of their money & it works. Sporty cars or not.
I am in a dealership almost every other day. or at lease once a week, since I deal with shows & events for my Car club in my local area. Some of the sales men know me & talk straight to me, others try to talk me around a corner.
The cars will sell & only the diehards will go out price match & do the best to get the best price for the car. while others will be just happy to get their hands on the car or wait a year or so hoping the prices will drop (which they will not) or buy use, once some of us decide the car is not what we want or cant afford payments & sell it.
10-21-2007, 10:48 AM
#47
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 2,301
The Corvette Museum delivery program is NOT a factory program per se. You STILL purchase the vehicle thru a dealer -- but you check the option for museum delivery -- and the dealer/museum deliver the car to you.
TRUST me -- there is no easy way around this issue.
10-21-2007, 10:54 AM
#48
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 2,301
Hey Scott.....I ordered two because I fully expect the first dealer to try to screw me somehow....their reputation around here has always been less than stellar... but they are very close to home. The second one had to be ordered from much further away, but the dealer has a great reputation for honesty in dealing with thier customers. Either deposit is refundable....and if I "walk" on the first one I'm sure the dealer will not hesitate to sell it on Ebay or to a local party store owner who is willing to pay $10,000 over MSRP. So how am I hurting the program by looking out for my own best financial interests? The dealer is NOT going to sell it to someone at MSRP after he tries to screw me out of it at that price. For all I know he will tell me I have to take a V6 model to utilize my position on his list. Am I a bad guy for being a careful (scared) customer who has been victimized by dealers in the past and wanting to insure that I get the vehicle I wanted and put a deposit on two years in advance? I can't even get a committment out of either dealer that I can order the car exactly as I want it. For all I know they both might try to shove a color or option down my throat that I do not want and tell me I have to take it or leave it. And that AINT gonna happen. So how do I end up being the bad guy in this scenario for wanting to be a customer that wants to purchase a car exactly as he wants it?
We ren into this issue with SSs -- and esp. 35th anniversary cars -- and there were a lot of people who didn't get the 35th they ordered -- and had to settle for another car that didn't quite have what they wanted on it.
No question this is a very thorny issue.
10-21-2007, 10:59 AM
#49
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
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Let me assure you -- let me repeat that -- LET ME ASSURE YOU -- that GM has persued alll legal avenues -- there are reasons why we do (in addition to customer satisfaction which is our top priority) that I cannot go into........
10-21-2007, 11:08 AM
#50
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 2,301
Some thoughts:
There are just under 4,300 Chevrolet dealers in the United States -- MOST of them are very good dealers -- there are some bad ones. If someone asks for a price over MSRP -- JUST SAY NO -- (and I suspect a few of you will add a couiple of "modifiers" before the 'NO!") -- and walk out.
We will be preaching to the dealers WHY they shouldn't add the additional markup -- but (listen up!) WE CANNOT FORBID THEM TO DO SO.
And -- keep in mind that the same prediction was made with Mustang -- and yes, a few dealers tried this. -- but the majority did not -- and the Mustang has been successful by anyones' standards. Don't try to compare the SSR to the Mustang -- simply because the SSR was a limited production vehicle from the start......Mustang was not and Camaro will not.
Further - someone made the comparision to Mustang and Challenger - (people will get upset and buy a Mustang or Challenger) -- well, guess what? A high percentage of dealers who own Chrysler and Ford stores also own Chevrolet Stores (and Toyota and Honda as well) -- but- there are a substantially larger number of Chevrolet dealerships -- in the case of Chrysler and Toyota -- about three times as many! (so you have a larger choice of who to go to -- and you can ;just say no' to a lot of stores if you have to.)
Ladies and Gentlemen: You can be assured that Chevrolet and GM understand this issue - -you can be assured that the last thing we want is for you to pay over MSRP. We want you to be enthusiastic owners of our products. (there ARE limits.....)
There are just under 4,300 Chevrolet dealers in the United States -- MOST of them are very good dealers -- there are some bad ones. If someone asks for a price over MSRP -- JUST SAY NO -- (and I suspect a few of you will add a couiple of "modifiers" before the 'NO!") -- and walk out.
We will be preaching to the dealers WHY they shouldn't add the additional markup -- but (listen up!) WE CANNOT FORBID THEM TO DO SO.
And -- keep in mind that the same prediction was made with Mustang -- and yes, a few dealers tried this. -- but the majority did not -- and the Mustang has been successful by anyones' standards. Don't try to compare the SSR to the Mustang -- simply because the SSR was a limited production vehicle from the start......Mustang was not and Camaro will not.
Further - someone made the comparision to Mustang and Challenger - (people will get upset and buy a Mustang or Challenger) -- well, guess what? A high percentage of dealers who own Chrysler and Ford stores also own Chevrolet Stores (and Toyota and Honda as well) -- but- there are a substantially larger number of Chevrolet dealerships -- in the case of Chrysler and Toyota -- about three times as many! (so you have a larger choice of who to go to -- and you can ;just say no' to a lot of stores if you have to.)
Ladies and Gentlemen: You can be assured that Chevrolet and GM understand this issue - -you can be assured that the last thing we want is for you to pay over MSRP. We want you to be enthusiastic owners of our products. (there ARE limits.....)
10-21-2007, 11:58 AM
#51
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Location: South Bend , IN
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10-21-2007, 01:04 PM
#52
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 213
Perhaps GM should begin their own rating and grading system of each dealer. Dealers with high marks for customer service and prices get a greater selection of cars to buy from GM. Those with lower marks are limited in their selection and ordering abilities.
10-21-2007, 01:12 PM
#53
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 213
Why is it illegal? What happened to force Congress to pass such laws?
You can buy a Dell computer directly from Dell, custom built and shipped to your house in no time. How is this different from buying a Chevrolet?
There's a Matress Factory close to where I live. Their showroom, sales floor, and factory are all in the same building. You order what you want and they make it right there in the same building, and it's all one company. No middle man.
If that's not illegal, how are cars different?
10-21-2007, 01:18 PM
#54
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: South Bend , IN
Posts: 2,801
Why is it illegal? What happened to force Congress to pass such laws?
You can buy a Dell computer directly from Dell, custom built and shipped to your house in no time. How is this different from buying a Chevrolet?
There's a Matress Factory close to where I live. Their showroom, sales floor, and factory are all in the same building. You order what you want and they make it right there in the same building, and it's all one company. No middle man.
If that's not illegal, how are cars different?
You can buy a Dell computer directly from Dell, custom built and shipped to your house in no time. How is this different from buying a Chevrolet?
There's a Matress Factory close to where I live. Their showroom, sales floor, and factory are all in the same building. You order what you want and they make it right there in the same building, and it's all one company. No middle man.
If that's not illegal, how are cars different?
10-21-2007, 04:31 PM
#55
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
IIRC, Direct manufacturer sales isn't illegal per se, but it is regulated heavily by the Anti-Trust laws. All beyond me.
I also agree with JP95ZM6 that having a "hot" product is actually a very good thing. Look at how much supplemental press coverage the Solstice and the Sky has received just because they were "sold out". Look at how much hype is surrounding whatever the popular Christmas gift is going to be (this year the Nintendo Wii). If the media tells people that everyone's getting one, tons of people will suddenly want one.
Except the product has to be genuinely hot. The problem with the SSR and GTO is that they weren't.
I also agree with JP95ZM6 that having a "hot" product is actually a very good thing. Look at how much supplemental press coverage the Solstice and the Sky has received just because they were "sold out". Look at how much hype is surrounding whatever the popular Christmas gift is going to be (this year the Nintendo Wii). If the media tells people that everyone's getting one, tons of people will suddenly want one.
Except the product has to be genuinely hot. The problem with the SSR and GTO is that they weren't.
10-21-2007, 08:58 PM
#56
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 801
Why is it illegal? What happened to force Congress to pass such laws?
You can buy a Dell computer directly from Dell, custom built and shipped to your house in no time. How is this different from buying a Chevrolet?
There's a Matress Factory close to where I live. Their showroom, sales floor, and factory are all in the same building. You order what you want and they make it right there in the same building, and it's all one company. No middle man.
If that's not illegal, how are cars different?
You can buy a Dell computer directly from Dell, custom built and shipped to your house in no time. How is this different from buying a Chevrolet?
There's a Matress Factory close to where I live. Their showroom, sales floor, and factory are all in the same building. You order what you want and they make it right there in the same building, and it's all one company. No middle man.
If that's not illegal, how are cars different?
Does your Dell cost $20,000? Does the Mattress company need a massive assembly line, and does your mattress cost you 20k?
C'mon - I'm not trying to stir trouble - but you're going waaay beyond the whole apples to oranges thing. This is mattresses to cars! literally
When you're dealing with that amount of money, if you're dealing direct a manufacturer can easily mark it up, and say "deal with it." It'd no longer be Manufacturer's suggested retail price. It'd be manufacturer's price. Pay it, or leave it.
Dealers have numerous advantages to a company: most do their own advertising - leading into the next advantage - because they too need to turn a profit. Which in turn will profit the Manufacturer. Then on top of all the other crap GM/ or whoever, has to deal with, they don't have to deal with selling their own cars. Basically, they have to sell the dealers cars, the dealers then have to sell them for GM, and GM rewards the dealers for selling them by paying them.
There's also the issue of fairness. (only an example): why should you be able to buy direct because you live right near a factory, when I don't, so I'm forced to buy through a dealer. 'Cause GM sure as hell isn't gonna ship (1) car just for me...
That's my take on it. +1 to Scott.
10-22-2007, 09:20 AM
#57
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 213
Ohhh, geez. I'm going to sound rude. just for-warning you.
Does your Dell cost $20,000? Does the Mattress company need a massive assembly line, and does your mattress cost you 20k?
C'mon - I'm not trying to stir trouble - but you're going waaay beyond the whole apples to oranges thing. This is mattresses to cars! literally
When you're dealing with that amount of money, if you're dealing direct a manufacturer can easily mark it up, and say "deal with it." It'd no longer be Manufacturer's suggested retail price. It'd be manufacturer's price. Pay it, or leave it.
Dealers have numerous advantages to a company: most do their own advertising - leading into the next advantage - because they too need to turn a profit. Which in turn will profit the Manufacturer. Then on top of all the other crap GM/ or whoever, has to deal with, they don't have to deal with selling their own cars. Basically, they have to sell the dealers cars, the dealers then have to sell them for GM, and GM rewards the dealers for selling them by paying them.
There's also the issue of fairness. (only an example): why should you be able to buy direct because you live right near a factory, when I don't, so I'm forced to buy through a dealer. 'Cause GM sure as hell isn't gonna ship (1) car just for me...
That's my take on it. +1 to Scott.
Does your Dell cost $20,000? Does the Mattress company need a massive assembly line, and does your mattress cost you 20k?
C'mon - I'm not trying to stir trouble - but you're going waaay beyond the whole apples to oranges thing. This is mattresses to cars! literallyWhen you're dealing with that amount of money, if you're dealing direct a manufacturer can easily mark it up, and say "deal with it." It'd no longer be Manufacturer's suggested retail price. It'd be manufacturer's price. Pay it, or leave it.
Dealers have numerous advantages to a company: most do their own advertising - leading into the next advantage - because they too need to turn a profit. Which in turn will profit the Manufacturer. Then on top of all the other crap GM/ or whoever, has to deal with, they don't have to deal with selling their own cars. Basically, they have to sell the dealers cars, the dealers then have to sell them for GM, and GM rewards the dealers for selling them by paying them.
There's also the issue of fairness. (only an example): why should you be able to buy direct because you live right near a factory, when I don't, so I'm forced to buy through a dealer. 'Cause GM sure as hell isn't gonna ship (1) car just for me...
That's my take on it. +1 to Scott.
Car salesmen make my skin crawl, raise my blood pressure, and can really invoke me to do things that may get myself in trouble. Which is why I tend to stay away from any dealer to begin with.
10-22-2007, 09:29 AM
#58
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 801
You must have some really sucky dealers around you...I'm sorry.
I'm actually in the middle of buying a new Cobalt right now, and the sales guy has been nothing but nice, and respectful, acknowleging our price goals, and helping us to find a new car in that range, he's reffered us to Saturn, and mentioned sideways a Toyota. But I said flat - "No, I can't do that - it's against my religion."
We're finalizing tonight...it's funny though, I enjoyed every second of it - I love the battle of the wills - who's gonna break first, me, or the sales manager?
But, really - it comes down to walking out. There's nothing wrong with it, and the only person that's gonna lose anything is that particular dealer. Not GM, 'cause the Chevy guy down the street is more willing to work with you...
I'm actually in the middle of buying a new Cobalt right now, and the sales guy has been nothing but nice, and respectful, acknowleging our price goals, and helping us to find a new car in that range, he's reffered us to Saturn, and mentioned sideways a Toyota. But I said flat - "No, I can't do that - it's against my religion."
We're finalizing tonight...it's funny though, I enjoyed every second of it - I love the battle of the wills - who's gonna break first, me, or the sales manager?
But, really - it comes down to walking out. There's nothing wrong with it, and the only person that's gonna lose anything is that particular dealer. Not GM, 'cause the Chevy guy down the street is more willing to work with you...
10-22-2007, 10:42 AM
#59
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: arizona
Posts: 145
I'm not too worried about dealer's jacking the price. I remember some tried it with the last Thunderbird, and you know how that ended. Even if, and that's an if, there was an attempt to jack the price, it wouldn't last long because the Camaro is not a limited edition, and there aren't millions of people going to buy it year in and year out.
10-22-2007, 11:17 AM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 6
IIRC, Direct manufacturer sales isn't illegal per se, but it is regulated heavily by the Anti-Trust laws. All beyond me.
I also agree with JP95ZM6 that having a "hot" product is actually a very good thing. Look at how much supplemental press coverage the Solstice and the Sky has received just because they were "sold out". Look at how much hype is surrounding whatever the popular Christmas gift is going to be (this year the Nintendo Wii). If the media tells people that everyone's getting one, tons of people will suddenly want one.
Except the product has to be genuinely hot. The problem with the SSR and GTO is that they weren't.
I also agree with JP95ZM6 that having a "hot" product is actually a very good thing. Look at how much supplemental press coverage the Solstice and the Sky has received just because they were "sold out". Look at how much hype is surrounding whatever the popular Christmas gift is going to be (this year the Nintendo Wii). If the media tells people that everyone's getting one, tons of people will suddenly want one.
Except the product has to be genuinely hot. The problem with the SSR and GTO is that they weren't.