A word for Fbodfather (Scott)
Ah man!! Can I be your kid?? 
10-19-2007, 10:51 PM
#32
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Macomb, MI
Posts: 259
Hey Scott.....I ordered two because I fully expect the first dealer to try to screw me somehow....their reputation around here has always been less than stellar... but they are very close to home. The second one had to be ordered from much further away, but the dealer has a great reputation for honesty in dealing with thier customers. Either deposit is refundable....and if I "walk" on the first one I'm sure the dealer will not hesitate to sell it on Ebay or to a local party store owner who is willing to pay $10,000 over MSRP. So how am I hurting the program by looking out for my own best financial interests? The dealer is NOT going to sell it to someone at MSRP after he tries to screw me out of it at that price. For all I know he will tell me I have to take a V6 model to utilize my position on his list. Am I a bad guy for being a careful (scared) customer who has been victimized by dealers in the past and wanting to insure that I get the vehicle I wanted and put a deposit on two years in advance? I can't even get a committment out of either dealer that I can order the car exactly as I want it. For all I know they both might try to shove a color or option down my throat that I do not want and tell me I have to take it or leave it. And that AINT gonna happen. So how do I end up being the bad guy in this scenario for wanting to be a customer that wants to purchase a car exactly as he wants it?
10-20-2007, 09:48 AM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 747
This might not go over too well, but I think it will be great if dealers can get 10k over sticker for a while from customers who did not pre-order. It was the tremendous show of customer demand that enabled GM to bring the Camaro back, and part of the enticement was certainly support for having a 'hot product' that would bring eager customers and higher than normal profits to dealers.
So, in large part, the potential for exceptionally high initial demand (translates to potential for markup) enabled all of us to to be able to get a new Camaro again. If the law of supply and demand could somehow be short-circuited to prevent markups, it would undermine GM's ability to bring us hot products, and we might not even have the new Camaro. There would be even more focus on profitable, very fuel efficient mass market vehicles and less motivation to develop speciality/niche vehicles a few folks get very excited about.
So, the potential to have people willing to do almost anything to get an early build, and pay extra for it, is a good thing. Since you can still do the pre-order deposit thing, it doesn't really even prevent anybody who plans ahead from getting a car at MSRP. Dont forget, this same potential for markup means a pre-ordered car could wind up initially being worth a lot more than you have to pay for it. Hooray for the laws of supply and demand!
So, in large part, the potential for exceptionally high initial demand (translates to potential for markup) enabled all of us to to be able to get a new Camaro again. If the law of supply and demand could somehow be short-circuited to prevent markups, it would undermine GM's ability to bring us hot products, and we might not even have the new Camaro. There would be even more focus on profitable, very fuel efficient mass market vehicles and less motivation to develop speciality/niche vehicles a few folks get very excited about.
So, the potential to have people willing to do almost anything to get an early build, and pay extra for it, is a good thing. Since you can still do the pre-order deposit thing, it doesn't really even prevent anybody who plans ahead from getting a car at MSRP. Dont forget, this same potential for markup means a pre-ordered car could wind up initially being worth a lot more than you have to pay for it. Hooray for the laws of supply and demand!
10-20-2007, 10:05 AM
#34
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 213
Hey Scott.....I ordered two because I fully expect the first dealer to try to screw me somehow....their reputation around here has always been less than stellar... but they are very close to home. The second one had to be ordered from much further away, but the dealer has a great reputation for honesty in dealing with thier customers. Either deposit is refundable....and if I "walk" on the first one I'm sure the dealer will not hesitate to sell it on Ebay or to a local party store owner who is willing to pay $10,000 over MSRP. So how am I hurting the program by looking out for my own best financial interests? The dealer is NOT going to sell it to someone at MSRP after he tries to screw me out of it at that price. For all I know he will tell me I have to take a V6 model to utilize my position on his list. Am I a bad guy for being a careful (scared) customer who has been victimized by dealers in the past and wanting to insure that I get the vehicle I wanted and put a deposit on two years in advance? I can't even get a committment out of either dealer that I can order the car exactly as I want it. For all I know they both might try to shove a color or option down my throat that I do not want and tell me I have to take it or leave it. And that AINT gonna happen. So how do I end up being the bad guy in this scenario for wanting to be a customer that wants to purchase a car exactly as he wants it?
I knew I wasn't the only person who felt this way.
Scott, I understand you (and GM as whole for that matter) don't have control over all the plays in a stealership's book. But GM must understand dealers and salesmen have about as good a reputation with the American public as lawyers. We've seen it time and time again with the Solstice, the first year or so of the GTO, heck even the SSR untill production ceased. I know you're going to say all the stuff about supply and demand, yada yada yada. But if dealers are going to be crafty with this, so can consumers. In fact, I just may do what detroit boy did, only do it with 5 or 6 dealers. All dealers are out to do is screw people, so us as consumers have to level the playing field. If it will hurt other potential Camaro customers by doing what we will do, get GM to put some controls on their dealers. I have no problem going the extra mile to get my car the way I want it for what is a reasonable price.
Believe me, untill auto manufacturers can have some control over how their product is sold to their customers, this stuff is going to continue to go around and around in circles. Who gets screwed? We all do.
I'm sure there are legal avenues GM can persue to halt this nonsense. It's time for GM to step up and exert some corporate muscle.
Last edited by fastball; 10-20-2007 at 10:10 AM.
10-20-2007, 10:33 AM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N Falmouth MA
Posts: 2,597
I'm gonna have to play some hard ball when it comes to the dealer.. I know what I'll be buying, I'll know what the MSRP will be and I'm not going to fall for the dealership 'fancy talk' and mark up... If they tell me that what is on the car IS the MSRP (and I know it's NOT), I'll walk right out on them if that's what it takes.
I paid a little too much for the Camaro I have now (Bought back in Jan 03), I DIDN'T CHECK the KBB value and I was taken for a ride due to my inexperience.... Live and learn.. $21k out the door for a 2000 Camaro Z28 w/ 17k on the clock.
I paid a little too much for the Camaro I have now (Bought back in Jan 03), I DIDN'T CHECK the KBB value and I was taken for a ride due to my inexperience.... Live and learn.. $21k out the door for a 2000 Camaro Z28 w/ 17k on the clock.
Last edited by Bayer-Z28; 10-20-2007 at 10:35 AM.
10-20-2007, 11:18 AM
#36
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 639
This might not go over too well, but I think it will be great if dealers can get 10k over sticker for a while from customers who did not pre-order. It was the tremendous show of customer demand that enabled GM to bring the Camaro back, and part of the enticement was certainly support for having a 'hot product' that would bring eager customers and higher than normal profits to dealers.
So, in large part, the potential for exceptionally high initial demand (translates to potential for markup) enabled all of us to to be able to get a new Camaro again. If the law of supply and demand could somehow be short-circuited to prevent markups, it would undermine GM's ability to bring us hot products, and we might not even have the new Camaro. There would be even more focus on profitable, very fuel efficient mass market vehicles and less motivation to develop speciality/niche vehicles a few folks get very excited about.
So, the potential to have people willing to do almost anything to get an early build, and pay extra for it, is a good thing. Since you can still do the pre-order deposit thing, it doesn't really even prevent anybody who plans ahead from getting a car at MSRP. Dont forget, this same potential for markup means a pre-ordered car could wind up initially being worth a lot more than you have to pay for it. Hooray for the laws of supply and demand!
So, in large part, the potential for exceptionally high initial demand (translates to potential for markup) enabled all of us to to be able to get a new Camaro again. If the law of supply and demand could somehow be short-circuited to prevent markups, it would undermine GM's ability to bring us hot products, and we might not even have the new Camaro. There would be even more focus on profitable, very fuel efficient mass market vehicles and less motivation to develop speciality/niche vehicles a few folks get very excited about.
So, the potential to have people willing to do almost anything to get an early build, and pay extra for it, is a good thing. Since you can still do the pre-order deposit thing, it doesn't really even prevent anybody who plans ahead from getting a car at MSRP. Dont forget, this same potential for markup means a pre-ordered car could wind up initially being worth a lot more than you have to pay for it. Hooray for the laws of supply and demand!
True, many "normal" Camaro fans will simply wait for the dealer gouging to subside and buy later when the prices come down to a sane level.
But what will the "average" consumer (who is key to whether the 5th Gen lasts or dies out again) who is looking to buy a "sporty and fun car"? Do you honestly think they'll pay an extra $10K, or wait an extra year for the gouging to subside? HELL NO they won't! To think the "non enthusiast" would do either would be foolish. They'll simply buy a Mustang (or even an import
) instead, taking them out of the new car market (read "future Camaro buyer") for the next 3-5 years....or however long the new car buyer keeps their vehicle.Doesn't sound like a way to sell more Camaros to me.
Last edited by Ron78Z&01SS; 10-20-2007 at 02:12 PM.
10-20-2007, 02:53 PM
#38
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Bay City MI
Posts: 264
Scott
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
Last edited by doc212121; 10-20-2007 at 02:56 PM.
10-20-2007, 03:54 PM
#39
SEMA Media Team
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mi
Posts: 136
Scott
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
Same thing happened to the 89 Turbo Trans Am I've heard of people paying over 40k at launch but by the end of the run you could pick them up for around 25k +/-(MSRP was about 31k or so)
10-20-2007, 05:19 PM
#40
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 213
Scott
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
I couldn't have said it better myself!!!
10-20-2007, 05:30 PM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yelm, Wa USA
Posts: 2,446
Scott
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
I believe they are referring to killing the product by gouging customers to the point where they say screw it and take their money to the challenger, mustang, etc. Case in point??? Think when the SSR was coming out, hmmm everyone was talking its gonna be hot, priced around 30-35k loaded MSRP, and with a nice V8. We had people in the dealership wanting one asap, what happened when it hit the showroom floor??? $10-$15k markups!!! What proceeded that was lost customers spending money other places, and then the *** falling out of the market you tried to stay in, their were brand new units over 2 years old on the floors 26k NEW and not selling. Yes Camaro carries a name, but customers now days are very different from the past, dealers jack the prices, kill the initial launch and turn people from the brand, youve just slit your own throat. You know I am getting one no matter what, but what we are hoping for is that the dealers actions dont hurt the brand to the point where the see the launch as being mediocre, it can happen..........It also doesnt make sense that GM corporate doesnt have a launch plan for dealers, because if you think dealers have nothing to do with the success or failure of a product we'd all be niave. You built the cars, we want them, you have the "MSRP's" set, one more roadblock is the dealers, you got it there, now can they get it to us?
See ya stranger!!! Hope your doing well too buddy!
Andy Siradakis
Believe me I have done this a few times.
My husband & I bought a PT Cruiser Several years ago (didnt own it for more than a year before we traded it in) the dealership wanted to sell us the PT for 10k mark up. we started to walk out & they were running out behind us convincing us that they will take off the mark up. about a year later we traded it in for our S10 pick up & got more than what we paid for it & believe me when we bought it the market for them was hot because they were only out a year or so.
One of my co workers & her husband went out & bought a 08 Silverado just this last week, She got the $15000 mark up off the truck after her husband took the truck off the lot to bring it home. It does work you just have to know how to go about doing it.
If you really want the car you can find ways to not pay the mark up & lower the cost of the car. It helps to take a women with you, that knows more about the car than the dealership.
10-20-2007, 05:32 PM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yelm, Wa USA
Posts: 2,446
The dealerships work for themselves they are not part of the GM Corprate. most of the dealerships are privately owned. They buy the cars from gm just like any other company does in any other industries.
Believe me just because you think that FORD Or Dodge or any other automotive dealerships follows their support companies policeys they dont.
Believe me just because you think that FORD Or Dodge or any other automotive dealerships follows their support companies policeys they dont.
10-20-2007, 07:25 PM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 639
As I said in my post, that you do not have to pay the Mark up, Either call around to find dealerships NOT doing the mark up ( there are several of them out there that do not do the mark ups at all.) or just tell the dealership that you refuse to pay the mark up & start walking away, Believe me if they think they are going to lose a sale & they are a good dealership then they will come running after you.
But.......those "other car buyers" who aren't model or brand loyal will just walk from the Chevy dealer straight to some other dealership down the road and buy a Mustang (or some other "sporty" car) instead.
doc212121 hit the nail on the head. Greedy, price gouging dealerships could very well be the kiss of death for the Camaro. Hopefully, dealerships will see the "big picture" and not let short term profits cloud their judgment to the point that it will affect the long term success of the Camaro.
10-20-2007, 07:54 PM
#44
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yelm, Wa USA
Posts: 2,446
Very very true. I know that, you know that, plenty of people on this board know that.
But.......those "other car buyers" who aren't model or brand loyal will just walk from the Chevy dealer straight to some other dealership down the road and buy a Mustang (or some other "sporty" car) instead.
doc212121 hit the nail on the head. Greedy, price gouging dealerships could very well be the kiss of death for the Camaro. Hopefully, dealerships will see the "big picture" and not let short term profits cloud their judgment to the point that it will affect the long term success of the Camaro.
But.......those "other car buyers" who aren't model or brand loyal will just walk from the Chevy dealer straight to some other dealership down the road and buy a Mustang (or some other "sporty" car) instead.
doc212121 hit the nail on the head. Greedy, price gouging dealerships could very well be the kiss of death for the Camaro. Hopefully, dealerships will see the "big picture" and not let short term profits cloud their judgment to the point that it will affect the long term success of the Camaro.
yes but those Everyday Adv joes arenot going to care about the price of the car if they can buy them they would buy them. if they cant then they would buy used.
There are Ford dealerships here in washington state that sell the Mustang for $20k over MSRP.
of course paying nearly 90k for a vette is getting out of hand too.
10-20-2007, 08:36 PM
#45
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 639
Am I understanding you correctly?
Are you saying that the "average Joe" who isn't brand loyal is "...not going to care about the price of the car..."? If someone can't afford to pay $5K-$10K over MSRP they would buy used?
IF that is what you're saying....well, sorry, but you're
. That's like saying if someone can afford to pay $130,000 for a house SURELY they can afford to pay $170,000.....if not they should be looking at renting a 1 bedroom apartment. Doesn't make much sense.No one in their right mind would pay $30,000 for a V6 or $35,000 for a V8 Camaro when they could get, for example, a V6 Mustang for $20,000 or the V8 for $25,000.
ONCE AGAIN.....I'm talking about the "average" consumer who is in the market to buy a "sporty" new car, NOT the die hard Camaro fan who has no problem going out of town or waiting a year if necessary.
As far as Mustangs going for $20K over MSRP and Vettes for $90K......I'm speechless
. I knew Washington was expensive, but that's absolutely insane.