A VERY realistic...and IMMEDIATE... threat to Camaro.
05-08-2009, 02:16 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
A VERY realistic...and IMMEDIATE... threat to Camaro.
Those that have known me over the past 9 years here, know that I'm not prone to sounding alarms unnecessarily. I am by no means a doom and gloom person, and whether you tend to agree or disagree with things I write, I always try and make sure I have my ducks lined up in a row before I post something.
I simply don't cave in to the "sky-is-falling" , "this will mean the end of everything" mentality that many here do on one subject or another.
Although this isn't quite at alarm stange yet, I would certainly place it in the "Something to be concerned about" catagory.
What's been going on under the radar in recent weeks is the brewing conflict between General Motors and the Canadian Autoworkers Union. The guys that in addition to Impalas and Lacrosses, happen to be the only people who bolt together the new Chevrolet Camaro. Here's what's been missed in the excitement of Camaros showing up in showrooms again and the 1st people taking delivery, as well Chrysler dominiating daily automotive news.
Most know me as fair to unions, and even supportive to unions when the thread degrades into mindless union bashing. Keep this in mind.
Back in March, GM and the CAW got a deal together that placed Canada's CAW wages (whose strong dollar made it more expensive to make cars than the US) on par with wages in the US.
Since then, both the Canadian Federal and Ontario governments have demanded that the CAW come to an agreement with GM that cuts wages even farther to the value (wages and pensions) of foreign based manufacturers in Canada.... they have already done this with Chrysler.
The governments are threatening to eliminate financial support for GM, and the result is that General Motors in Canada will be liquidated.
That means all General Motor's Canadian assets.
That means GM's Oshawa complex.
That means Camaro.
Normally, all negotiations that reach a standoff turn into a game of chicken. But alot can be determined by some of the comments made by top people.
General Motors is not only open to the idea of bankruptcy (which they were never before), but GM is also playing serious hardball with the CAW, and IMO is completely willing to shut down Canadian operations and pull out of Canadian production if it means saving the company. Unlike the past, it's not about saving money, it's about saving the company... and jobs.
It seems the CAW isn't getting this.
The CAW for it's part has completely turned down the possibility of taking equity in GM Canada in exchange for concessions (ie: the UAW's health care fund owning 55% of Chrysler). Ken Lewenza, head of the CAW put it this way: "We're philosophically opposed to taking an equity share, we're not here to manage companies".
With the CAW turning down equity in trade in addition to other stances they are taking, unless that changes by the deadline the Canadian governments have given the CAW, May 15th, the government can stop funding GM Canada, prompting GM Canada to begin shutting down.
GM has already added an unplanned shift to produce additional Camaros.
The most likely outcome in all this is if GM and the CAW don't close a deal, GM would use their upcoming bankruptcy protection to break down and move their manufacturing operations to the US or make the assembly line producing Camaro part of the "Good Assets" that would be bought by the new controling party of a new GM, which would almost certainly move Camaro production into the US.
Of course, this assumes that Camaro survives all this.
Camaro could also very well end up like the Studebaker Avanti. It's assembly line purchased by a private entity, creditor, debtholder, or even another automaker at General Motor's bankruptcy proceedings, and produced using parts bought from the owners of other sold off GM assets.
This is not ...repeat...NOT! an issue of sales, or how well Camaro is doing, or what the public wants or doesn't want.
This is the realism of finances, legal proceedings, bankruptcy, and what operations survive the mess of a company that has operations in a multitude of countries. Even those at our borders.
Some type of car company will no doubt come out of a bankrupt GM.
However, Camaro is made by GM-Canada, which much like GM-Holden and GM Opel, is fully owned by General Motors but still function as foreign operations.
I'm not sounding an alarm yet.
But my hand IS on the switch.
I simply don't cave in to the "sky-is-falling" , "this will mean the end of everything" mentality that many here do on one subject or another.
Although this isn't quite at alarm stange yet, I would certainly place it in the "Something to be concerned about" catagory.
What's been going on under the radar in recent weeks is the brewing conflict between General Motors and the Canadian Autoworkers Union. The guys that in addition to Impalas and Lacrosses, happen to be the only people who bolt together the new Chevrolet Camaro. Here's what's been missed in the excitement of Camaros showing up in showrooms again and the 1st people taking delivery, as well Chrysler dominiating daily automotive news.
Most know me as fair to unions, and even supportive to unions when the thread degrades into mindless union bashing. Keep this in mind.
Back in March, GM and the CAW got a deal together that placed Canada's CAW wages (whose strong dollar made it more expensive to make cars than the US) on par with wages in the US.
Since then, both the Canadian Federal and Ontario governments have demanded that the CAW come to an agreement with GM that cuts wages even farther to the value (wages and pensions) of foreign based manufacturers in Canada.... they have already done this with Chrysler.
The governments are threatening to eliminate financial support for GM, and the result is that General Motors in Canada will be liquidated.
That means all General Motor's Canadian assets.
That means GM's Oshawa complex.
That means Camaro.
Normally, all negotiations that reach a standoff turn into a game of chicken. But alot can be determined by some of the comments made by top people.
General Motors is not only open to the idea of bankruptcy (which they were never before), but GM is also playing serious hardball with the CAW, and IMO is completely willing to shut down Canadian operations and pull out of Canadian production if it means saving the company. Unlike the past, it's not about saving money, it's about saving the company... and jobs.
It seems the CAW isn't getting this.
The CAW for it's part has completely turned down the possibility of taking equity in GM Canada in exchange for concessions (ie: the UAW's health care fund owning 55% of Chrysler). Ken Lewenza, head of the CAW put it this way: "We're philosophically opposed to taking an equity share, we're not here to manage companies".
With the CAW turning down equity in trade in addition to other stances they are taking, unless that changes by the deadline the Canadian governments have given the CAW, May 15th, the government can stop funding GM Canada, prompting GM Canada to begin shutting down.
GM has already added an unplanned shift to produce additional Camaros.
The most likely outcome in all this is if GM and the CAW don't close a deal, GM would use their upcoming bankruptcy protection to break down and move their manufacturing operations to the US or make the assembly line producing Camaro part of the "Good Assets" that would be bought by the new controling party of a new GM, which would almost certainly move Camaro production into the US.
Of course, this assumes that Camaro survives all this.
Camaro could also very well end up like the Studebaker Avanti. It's assembly line purchased by a private entity, creditor, debtholder, or even another automaker at General Motor's bankruptcy proceedings, and produced using parts bought from the owners of other sold off GM assets.
This is not ...repeat...NOT! an issue of sales, or how well Camaro is doing, or what the public wants or doesn't want.
This is the realism of finances, legal proceedings, bankruptcy, and what operations survive the mess of a company that has operations in a multitude of countries. Even those at our borders.
Some type of car company will no doubt come out of a bankrupt GM.
However, Camaro is made by GM-Canada, which much like GM-Holden and GM Opel, is fully owned by General Motors but still function as foreign operations.
I'm not sounding an alarm yet.
But my hand IS on the switch.
Last edited by guionM; 05-08-2009 at 02:27 PM.
05-08-2009, 02:30 PM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cabot, AR
Posts: 66
I really hope this does not happen.
I have a plan to get an SS next year, but it would figure; just my luck. Something has always happened and I've never been able to own a Camaro.
Has this been reported somewhere that I could read to get more info?
I have a plan to get an SS next year, but it would figure; just my luck. Something has always happened and I've never been able to own a Camaro.
Has this been reported somewhere that I could read to get more info?
05-08-2009, 02:37 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: CNY
Posts: 2,224
This sounds exactly like what happened with Chrysler & the CAW. Chrysler threatened to pull out of Canada. Chrysler said they could have St. Louis South building minivans again within 60 days. Blah, blah, blah.
I've been through enough contract negotiations to know posturing when I see it.
The CAW will grant whatever changes GM & the governments want at the last minute and they will act like a gang of goons beat them up, held them down, *ss raped them, and then stole all their money. It's all theatrics.
I've been through enough contract negotiations to know posturing when I see it.
The CAW will grant whatever changes GM & the governments want at the last minute and they will act like a gang of goons beat them up, held them down, *ss raped them, and then stole all their money. It's all theatrics.
05-08-2009, 03:03 PM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090507/..._us_gm_union_3
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090507/...7o.QTesN.L_bIF
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...453/1148/rss25
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/bu...bal/08caw.html
http://news.therecord.com/article/533782
It's been lost in the press over daily news on Chrysler. It's also been missed in the Camaro enthusiast circles because of the excitement in that Camaros are starting to be delivered and you can now see them in show rooms.
Hope it doesn't get to liquidation. That's going to open a whole can of worms regarding Camaro.... regardless as to how well it does on the market.
Last edited by guionM; 05-08-2009 at 03:15 PM.
05-08-2009, 03:40 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Toronto,Canada
Posts: 214
I am a canadian living 50kms (waiting for shipment out of Oshawa of my Black 2SS) from the plant and Ken Lewenza is on the news daily in Toronto. This guy is the biggest windbag and promoter of BS in the Auto Biz in Canada. He came out ALL guns ablazing when the Chrysler deal was cooking and threatened everything but kidnapping your mother in law(too bad huh?) and in the end....guess what...they signed with a BIG majority. The CAW knows the stakes of game of chicken and this is ALL posturing so that they get some concessions in the end. The one thing he said last night is "we will make a deal but they wont touch our retirees"....well Ken....like Barack said everyone will have "skin in this game" and everyone involved will come out bloodied. They have to compete with Korea, China, Japan and the other domestics. The CAW will bend or else all the Canadian jobs will dissapear and you can bet that Tony Clement (industry minister) and Lewenza wont let it happen and of course I really cant believe the workers are that stupid. If you look carefully at the package signed at Chrysler Canada it involves a reduction in overall package of 19 bucks an hour but "most" of it is in perks, holidays, pension, stat days off, overtime or lack of it, employee car purchase benefits, etc...etc....very little if any monies were dinged off their actual take home pay which is quite generous by average Canadian standards.
My car is already built as I have Vin #6046 and is sitting in Oshawa waiting for this mess with the tiny recall to get sorted out and will be shipped as soon as they get the all clear on the recall deal but I would not lose any sleep over Ken Lewenza. He is a windbag and of first order and will buckle at the end. Camaro will have a good Mid term life in Oshawa at one of the best automotive plants in the world. Long term?? who knows....Keep those orders coming in boys and girls.....Chevrolet needs the support and the car is fabulous.
My car is already built as I have Vin #6046 and is sitting in Oshawa waiting for this mess with the tiny recall to get sorted out and will be shipped as soon as they get the all clear on the recall deal but I would not lose any sleep over Ken Lewenza. He is a windbag and of first order and will buckle at the end. Camaro will have a good Mid term life in Oshawa at one of the best automotive plants in the world. Long term?? who knows....Keep those orders coming in boys and girls.....Chevrolet needs the support and the car is fabulous.
05-08-2009, 03:52 PM
#10
Disciple
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,479
From the Canadian media
http://beta.theglobeandmail.com/glob...rticle1131218/
Talks a little about how the retiree situation is different than at Chrysler. I tend to agree on the posturing side .... but the risk is there.
http://beta.theglobeandmail.com/glob...rticle1131218/
Talks a little about how the retiree situation is different than at Chrysler. I tend to agree on the posturing side .... but the risk is there.
05-08-2009, 08:57 PM
#15
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 49
I don't care if you are UAW or CAW, we are in a recession. The unions either will have to loss some small stuff or loss it all. I don't think their members will be happy when GM pulls out of Canada and thousands of workers lose their jobs. Right now the US is looking to bring back the jobs here and this would be the perfect time to make it happen. Also GM has the upper hand, company in trouble, bankruptcy at GM’s door step; please. If you can’t read between the lines on this one, you must be blind.
I am sorry but I am full supporter of the unions and if it comes down to either having food on the table or seating around wondering where my next paycheck is coming from; give me the job.
I am sorry but I am full supporter of the unions and if it comes down to either having food on the table or seating around wondering where my next paycheck is coming from; give me the job.