Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
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From: The Golden State
Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Scott, I just want to let you know I think it's great what you're doing with the Camaro previews. You don't have to do these things, but even we disagreed on some things about Camaro, I have never doubted your passion (or insanity as it were) in support of the car. You're essentially a one man "Team Mustang" of the Chevrolet Camaro. 
As a former Mustang guy, one of the greatest things I've witnessed was how involved Ford was with Mustang enthusiasts. Most every Mustang gathering of any size was typically attended by at least 1 Ford representative, sometimes undercover, listening to and getting feedback from owners. Just before the new '94 SN95 Mustangs came out, various Mustang clubs were invited to take a peek, which I thought was the greatest thing in the world.
One of the more stark contrasts when I came over to Camaro was how detatched GM (and even Chevy) was to the Camaro. Outside of what you did on your own time, it seemed that Camaro was simply tolerated. the difference between the 2 as far as factory support was like night and day.
Another glairing difference I noticed coming over from Ford was the general mindset of the community. Where the Mustang community was broad, the Camaro community seemed very narrow and shallow. For instance, there was alot of "big-engine-in-a-box" mentality here. The only Camaro was a powerful V8 Camaro. Everything else was for the "girls".
There was also the mentality that sales numbers don't matter, and neither does the sustainability of the car. On the other hand, there was plenty of Mustang guys I ran into in the late 90s who had customised V6s (due to insurence premiums of V8s), some with exhaust kits, some with blowers, some with tricks to the engine that made it as quick as the V8s. Mustangs had the feeling of an all inclusive, fun to drive car. While there's endless battles over whether a Z28 or SS should be top car, Mach 1s, GT's, Cobras, & 5.0s, are all admired in their own right in the Mustang community.
One of the things that I think you are doing to make a big difference in the community are these previews for Camaro enthusiasts. It's not only showing factory involvement with it's enthusiasts, it's also doing alot to unite the community behind the car. It was only a few months ago that you had strong opinions on what a 5th gen should be between those who wanted a 1st gen, those who wanted a continuation of the 4th gen, and those whose photochopped pictures were just plain desparate if not horrible.
The best thing I think that has been done with the new Camaro is that it's gone back to what it was supposed to be. A car that promises to be easy to live with, fun to drive, with head turning looks. It discards the stupid neanderthal "women like cute cars" mentality of some, and creates an agressive and unmistaken look that appeals to both sexes as well as all age groups.... just like the Mustang. My sister loves the looks of the new Camaro, my dad loves it, my mom loves it..... even my 2 year old daughter likes it, giving it a "good" on her good/no good scale (Impala got a "no good"
).
I know Scott and alot of other people have gone above and beyond making the new Camaro happen & now the car's at critical mass where it has no choice but to happen. But there's some areas I suspect need some attention.
First, you've gotten alot of feedback on the console guages. PLEASE don't take a high tech answer to a simple problem by using HUD. Simply put the most commonly used guages on the dash like the fuel and tempreature. Other guages (including a digital clock?) are just fine on the console.
Second, get the aftermarket involved. GM seems to be far more secretive than Ford with aftermarket involvement in powertrain or chassis development. There should also be a wide array of personalization parts, even if it isn't from GM. Most everyone doesn't want to bolt on another 100 horsepower. But everyone who buys cars like this want to put their own touches to the interior or exterior, or engine compartment dressup.
Third, don't let the car get dummed down. The Camaro concept has gotten positive attention focused on GM for a change. The Camaro is stunning inside and out. Bob Lutz has already said the exterior wouldn't be dummed down, but I'd worry more about that interior. It's a very simple design that relies on flashy additions to bring it out. When you start taking away things like the chrome shifter & surround, the 2 tone interior, the color contrasting stitching, and the garish guages, the interior starts to look a little bland. Add in cheap feeling and looking plastic, and you have yourself a disaster in the making. Mustang can get away with cheap plastic because their interior is overstyled.
Next, don't forget the "FUN" factor with the new Camaro. Fun isn't just about coming up with the best performance numbers or having the highest Gs. It's about the feel and responsiveness of the car. This new Camaro is already shockingly wide, so on the surface it has a disadvantage to the Mustang coming out the gate. Adding heavy slow steering and a turning radius that rivals the 4th gen is courting disaster. I'm not sure if it's too late in the game for this, but I feel the car should feel smaller than it is, and have it a "tossable" quality. If it feels like a wider BMW M3 or G35, it's the right track.
Finally, get official factory involvement in the car. Race the Camaro (beyond the drag strip). Send reps to Camaro events (on an official basis and "on the clock"). Agressively search out avenues to show the Camaro, like movies & television (hopefully something with a bit more substance than GTO's "Last Ride"). Market the car outside of the "Hot Rod" set. Women are over 50% of the buying public. Market it in magazines primarily for women as much as for men.
I see the new Camaro as a car that can either do wonders for GM's image or nail perceptions shut. The car makes it to market quickly without any dumbing down, and is marketed to as wide an audience as possible with aftermarket involvement, you have not only a Camaro craze, but press buzz on GM's bad days being over. Drag the car out, take years to get it to market, give it a drab interior with cheap looking and feeling plastics, and make it feel as wide as it is, and you'll hear the press saying how GM still can't get it right.
The new Camaro is a golden opportunity that typically comes around once in a lifetime. It has a chance to redefine an entire company, re energize a historic name, bring in buyers not only from directly competing vehicles, but from other classes of vehicles as well, expanding the market segment.
There is no doubt the new Camaro is the most important new car from GM in years, and alot is riding on this car.
Personally, I think GM will pull it off.
As a former Mustang guy, one of the greatest things I've witnessed was how involved Ford was with Mustang enthusiasts. Most every Mustang gathering of any size was typically attended by at least 1 Ford representative, sometimes undercover, listening to and getting feedback from owners. Just before the new '94 SN95 Mustangs came out, various Mustang clubs were invited to take a peek, which I thought was the greatest thing in the world.
One of the more stark contrasts when I came over to Camaro was how detatched GM (and even Chevy) was to the Camaro. Outside of what you did on your own time, it seemed that Camaro was simply tolerated. the difference between the 2 as far as factory support was like night and day.
Another glairing difference I noticed coming over from Ford was the general mindset of the community. Where the Mustang community was broad, the Camaro community seemed very narrow and shallow. For instance, there was alot of "big-engine-in-a-box" mentality here. The only Camaro was a powerful V8 Camaro. Everything else was for the "girls".
There was also the mentality that sales numbers don't matter, and neither does the sustainability of the car. On the other hand, there was plenty of Mustang guys I ran into in the late 90s who had customised V6s (due to insurence premiums of V8s), some with exhaust kits, some with blowers, some with tricks to the engine that made it as quick as the V8s. Mustangs had the feeling of an all inclusive, fun to drive car. While there's endless battles over whether a Z28 or SS should be top car, Mach 1s, GT's, Cobras, & 5.0s, are all admired in their own right in the Mustang community.
One of the things that I think you are doing to make a big difference in the community are these previews for Camaro enthusiasts. It's not only showing factory involvement with it's enthusiasts, it's also doing alot to unite the community behind the car. It was only a few months ago that you had strong opinions on what a 5th gen should be between those who wanted a 1st gen, those who wanted a continuation of the 4th gen, and those whose photochopped pictures were just plain desparate if not horrible.
The best thing I think that has been done with the new Camaro is that it's gone back to what it was supposed to be. A car that promises to be easy to live with, fun to drive, with head turning looks. It discards the stupid neanderthal "women like cute cars" mentality of some, and creates an agressive and unmistaken look that appeals to both sexes as well as all age groups.... just like the Mustang. My sister loves the looks of the new Camaro, my dad loves it, my mom loves it..... even my 2 year old daughter likes it, giving it a "good" on her good/no good scale (Impala got a "no good"
).I know Scott and alot of other people have gone above and beyond making the new Camaro happen & now the car's at critical mass where it has no choice but to happen. But there's some areas I suspect need some attention.
First, you've gotten alot of feedback on the console guages. PLEASE don't take a high tech answer to a simple problem by using HUD. Simply put the most commonly used guages on the dash like the fuel and tempreature. Other guages (including a digital clock?) are just fine on the console.
Second, get the aftermarket involved. GM seems to be far more secretive than Ford with aftermarket involvement in powertrain or chassis development. There should also be a wide array of personalization parts, even if it isn't from GM. Most everyone doesn't want to bolt on another 100 horsepower. But everyone who buys cars like this want to put their own touches to the interior or exterior, or engine compartment dressup.
Third, don't let the car get dummed down. The Camaro concept has gotten positive attention focused on GM for a change. The Camaro is stunning inside and out. Bob Lutz has already said the exterior wouldn't be dummed down, but I'd worry more about that interior. It's a very simple design that relies on flashy additions to bring it out. When you start taking away things like the chrome shifter & surround, the 2 tone interior, the color contrasting stitching, and the garish guages, the interior starts to look a little bland. Add in cheap feeling and looking plastic, and you have yourself a disaster in the making. Mustang can get away with cheap plastic because their interior is overstyled.
Next, don't forget the "FUN" factor with the new Camaro. Fun isn't just about coming up with the best performance numbers or having the highest Gs. It's about the feel and responsiveness of the car. This new Camaro is already shockingly wide, so on the surface it has a disadvantage to the Mustang coming out the gate. Adding heavy slow steering and a turning radius that rivals the 4th gen is courting disaster. I'm not sure if it's too late in the game for this, but I feel the car should feel smaller than it is, and have it a "tossable" quality. If it feels like a wider BMW M3 or G35, it's the right track.
Finally, get official factory involvement in the car. Race the Camaro (beyond the drag strip). Send reps to Camaro events (on an official basis and "on the clock"). Agressively search out avenues to show the Camaro, like movies & television (hopefully something with a bit more substance than GTO's "Last Ride"). Market the car outside of the "Hot Rod" set. Women are over 50% of the buying public. Market it in magazines primarily for women as much as for men.
I see the new Camaro as a car that can either do wonders for GM's image or nail perceptions shut. The car makes it to market quickly without any dumbing down, and is marketed to as wide an audience as possible with aftermarket involvement, you have not only a Camaro craze, but press buzz on GM's bad days being over. Drag the car out, take years to get it to market, give it a drab interior with cheap looking and feeling plastics, and make it feel as wide as it is, and you'll hear the press saying how GM still can't get it right.
The new Camaro is a golden opportunity that typically comes around once in a lifetime. It has a chance to redefine an entire company, re energize a historic name, bring in buyers not only from directly competing vehicles, but from other classes of vehicles as well, expanding the market segment.
There is no doubt the new Camaro is the most important new car from GM in years, and alot is riding on this car.
Personally, I think GM will pull it off.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 766
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Great post Guy.
Equally important to what you said however regarding the sucess of this second coming of the Camaro is the treatment of the car by dealers. I am not speaking about dealerships elsewhere, nor price gouging or anything like that, but how the outgoing car was treated like a "red-headed stepchild" - "no you don't really want a Camaro; that's too much car for you. How 'bout trying out this nice Cavalier z24 here; a really nice car? How 'bout a truck?" mentality. I must say that given the apparent lack of visible support from GM, the dealers seem to have mirrored that indifference themselves. So I guess it's hard to assign blame. Moving forward it falls on the dealers to pass on and sustain the excitement that many will feel about the car. If they don't stock it and push it - it won't sell any better than before.
I can count on one hand the number of new Camaros/Firebirds that the local (three) GM dealerships here brought in to grace their lots from 1996 to the end, including v6 cars. Since that time (even while the car was in production) far more have been brought in and sold on used car lots then were ever sold new. It certainly couldn't be the lack of cash locally given the number of full size, full load, Z71 pickups that are running around here. We also have two Ford dealerships here and at almost any time you drive by, there are Mustangs there on the lot - even if they are only v6 cars.
That said, pony cars in general are not really visible here - not like the eighties when IROCs, z28s, Firebirds and Stangs were dime a dozen sightings.
Equally important to what you said however regarding the sucess of this second coming of the Camaro is the treatment of the car by dealers. I am not speaking about dealerships elsewhere, nor price gouging or anything like that, but how the outgoing car was treated like a "red-headed stepchild" - "no you don't really want a Camaro; that's too much car for you. How 'bout trying out this nice Cavalier z24 here; a really nice car? How 'bout a truck?" mentality. I must say that given the apparent lack of visible support from GM, the dealers seem to have mirrored that indifference themselves. So I guess it's hard to assign blame. Moving forward it falls on the dealers to pass on and sustain the excitement that many will feel about the car. If they don't stock it and push it - it won't sell any better than before.
I can count on one hand the number of new Camaros/Firebirds that the local (three) GM dealerships here brought in to grace their lots from 1996 to the end, including v6 cars. Since that time (even while the car was in production) far more have been brought in and sold on used car lots then were ever sold new. It certainly couldn't be the lack of cash locally given the number of full size, full load, Z71 pickups that are running around here. We also have two Ford dealerships here and at almost any time you drive by, there are Mustangs there on the lot - even if they are only v6 cars.
That said, pony cars in general are not really visible here - not like the eighties when IROCs, z28s, Firebirds and Stangs were dime a dozen sightings.
Last edited by SharpShooter_SS; Feb 23, 2006 at 07:42 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 499
From: Miami, Fl USA
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Guy...you're my hero. Oh, and you too Scott.
With respect to dealers...the first Chevy dealer I went to in 01 was clueless.
I walked in and said "I'm interested in a Z28 Convertible."
Response: "We only have Cavalier and Camaro convertibles."
"Do you know what a Z28 is?"
"No..." Then I left.
With respect to dealers...the first Chevy dealer I went to in 01 was clueless.
I walked in and said "I'm interested in a Z28 Convertible."
Response: "We only have Cavalier and Camaro convertibles."
"Do you know what a Z28 is?"
"No..." Then I left.
Last edited by Ed 2001 SS; Feb 23, 2006 at 07:42 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 140
From: Chattanooga, TN
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Great post Guy! It's nice to hear what you had to say about Ford being involved with the enthusiasts, and I hope that GM will begin to do the same as you mentioned.
The thing that you stated that I am in most agreement with is the not dumbing down of the interior. I have a friend who is a Korean-American. . . He loves my Camaro (92 RS 305), loves the torquey feel of the engine etc. . . The thing he complains about is the interior. He drives a BMW 325 coupe, and tells me that he would love some of GMs vehicles if they would just do something about the cheap feeling interiors. 95% of the time, you are are looking at the inside of the vehicle, not the outside. Personally, the cheapness of the interior of Domestic autos has not really bothered me, but then again I'm easy to please. Most people are not easy to please. To get the people who would otherwise buy a 350z, G35, BMW 3 series, even Subaru WRX, GM definetly needs to do more than just have better performance numbers. A box with a huge engine, just isn't gonna cut it.
Guy, you are right on the money with the interior. Please GM, please don't mess up the interior! It is critical!
The thing that you stated that I am in most agreement with is the not dumbing down of the interior. I have a friend who is a Korean-American. . . He loves my Camaro (92 RS 305), loves the torquey feel of the engine etc. . . The thing he complains about is the interior. He drives a BMW 325 coupe, and tells me that he would love some of GMs vehicles if they would just do something about the cheap feeling interiors. 95% of the time, you are are looking at the inside of the vehicle, not the outside. Personally, the cheapness of the interior of Domestic autos has not really bothered me, but then again I'm easy to please. Most people are not easy to please. To get the people who would otherwise buy a 350z, G35, BMW 3 series, even Subaru WRX, GM definetly needs to do more than just have better performance numbers. A box with a huge engine, just isn't gonna cut it.
Guy, you are right on the money with the interior. Please GM, please don't mess up the interior! It is critical!
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,232
From: Orlando, FL USA
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Hear, hear! Agreed on all points. Especially with the factory involvement with enthusiasts and racing the car.
The Camaro NEEDS to be back into a type of road course GT racing. If GM put the kind of backing into new race bred Camaros that they have the C5 and C6-R's, they would do well not only on the track but also for the car's image.
Also like Guy mentioned, GM should recognize this time around that Corvette isnt the only GM built car that commands a huge loyal following. I'm sure they know/knew Camaro had a ton of fans, as evidenced by the new car's unveiling, but this time around show the fans you know. Like Guy said, send reps out to Camaro gatherings (especially Bowling Green and Carlisle!)
And the aftermarket thing is a marketing must IMO. Let the aftermarket run wild on the car so that every SEMA show, theres about 30 customized or hot rodded shiny new Camaros sitting around every show for people to ogle over. Plus not only does that help the aftermarket companies, but it gives consumers more choices and it gets the Camaro into ALOT more performance mags and articles.
The Camaro NEEDS to be back into a type of road course GT racing. If GM put the kind of backing into new race bred Camaros that they have the C5 and C6-R's, they would do well not only on the track but also for the car's image.
Also like Guy mentioned, GM should recognize this time around that Corvette isnt the only GM built car that commands a huge loyal following. I'm sure they know/knew Camaro had a ton of fans, as evidenced by the new car's unveiling, but this time around show the fans you know. Like Guy said, send reps out to Camaro gatherings (especially Bowling Green and Carlisle!)
And the aftermarket thing is a marketing must IMO. Let the aftermarket run wild on the car so that every SEMA show, theres about 30 customized or hot rodded shiny new Camaros sitting around every show for people to ogle over. Plus not only does that help the aftermarket companies, but it gives consumers more choices and it gets the Camaro into ALOT more performance mags and articles.
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
While I was standing at NAIAS, waiting for the intro, I took a picture of and spoke briefly with Ed Welburn...I told him, as I've said here a few times..."The Camaro is the soul of Chevrolet." He enthusiastically agreed with that statement....and understood the sentiment that is, the Camaro embodies what Chevrolet is all about...Affordable, American style and performance, at a "Chevrolet Price".
I also told him it was about time Chevrolet rediscovered this fact.
I also told him it was about time Chevrolet rediscovered this fact.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Originally Posted by guionM
Scott, I just want to let you know I think it's great what you're doing with the Camaro previews. You don't have to do these things, but even we disagreed on some things about Camaro, I have never doubted your passion (or insanity as it were) in support of the car. You're essentially a one man "Team Mustang" of the Chevrolet Camaro.
And let me tell you guys something else, Bob Lutz 'gets it', regarding the white hot passion in our community for our car. He didn't call us a cult for nothing. And after having 250 of us descend on Detroit for the unveiling, and corner many of those working on the Camaro with our unvarnished opinions....more people now 'get it'.
If you happened to be a random journalist, GM executive, or enthusiast....and you were at the unveiling.....and didn't come away feeling that Camaro is the definitive "America's Car", .....well, then you were in a coma.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Originally Posted by Doug Harden
While I was standing at NAIAS, waiting for the intro, I took a picture of and spoke briefly with Ed Welburn...I told him, as I've said here a few times..."The Camaro is the soul of Chevrolet." He enthusiastically agreed with that statement....and understood the sentiment that is, the Camaro embodies what Chevrolet is all about...Affordable, American style and performance, at a "Chevrolet Price".
I also told him it was about time Chevrolet rediscovered this fact.
I also told him it was about time Chevrolet rediscovered this fact.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 201
From: U.S.
Re: Some thoughts on the Camaro Concept and (long post)
Wow, a lot of excellent points! I've noticed that, IMHO, the Mustang guys and gals are a great group of people. When I've posted over at this other forum, they almost always (with the exception of a few of the high and mighty long-timers, of course) treated me fairly. It's good to read and hear positive things here at z28, as well. But again, a lot of excellent points, you just said a lot of what's been on my mind, and what I might have tried to mention, if I had a few brain cells left!
