camarowner

Wow. I last visited this forum 8-11-05... anyway...

The Mustang stayed in production because women bought them. And now that the Camaro has been out of production for so long, the Mustang has had no real competition for years. Those potential buyers have moved onto Mustang. Unlike most of us here, the normal world wouldn't rather cut their throats than drive a Mustang. They've already bought their sporty car.

The introduction of the redesigned Mustang couldn't have come at a better time. Gas prices were low and it was the meatiest thing available. Dodge had yet to perk up as a dealer of muscle, they were still coasting on the PT Cruiser and killing the Prowler. The Mustang was the hottest thing available. Ford generated alot of buzz by taking chances and putting great concepts into production (Mustang & GT40) much like the way Dodge came roaring back in the early 00's - by blowing people's minds at auto shows and putting production on the fast-track. Other than the Camaro, what has GM done for you lately?

Dodge came calling with their stable of muscle cars and GM saw themselves shut out of the scene. The GTO was one of the most miserably marketed cars in recent memory. There's nothing like boring casual interest buyers while simultaneously insulting those passionate about the brand. Did they really think they'd get away with selling an Australian car as a rebirth of one of our first muscle cars?

I hate to say it, but it doesn't look to me like the Camaro is going to be the home run we all wish it would be. GM has a tendency to limp into the game. Look at the Solstice and Sky; low-performance options were available before anything impressive came along.

Ford has one Mustang. GM has the GTO, Sky, Solstice, and now the Camaro. Multiply that by the trim options for each model... Brand-extension is a killer and its only a matter of time before some of these models and maybe even one more of the General's brands goes the way of the Oldsmobile. The world equates quality to the Japanese brands (look at any consumer survey in the last 5 years) and they're also aware that Japanese cars are just as likely to be made in the US than the "domestic" brands. Buy American by buying Japanese!

Try as GM may, but gas is more expensive than ever, EPA estimates are changing soon so they'll have to actually report that the vehicles in their ads are getting 25 mpg instead of 35.

GM is doing better, don't get me wrong. The new Malibu is exciting. Its marketing is better. But overall I would compare it to starting a new airline. It couldn't be a worse time. I hope I'm wrong because I want to see Detroit succeed.

Tigger#76

I'm surprised the linked add wasn't in the list for entertaining while still getting a point across (granted it's a bit weird too, but I thought it was fun).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWnVhgvAyWM&NR=1

I'm not certain why I'm drawn to this thread beyond the fact that I have an interest in advertising even if it's not my occupation or even my hobby.

I agree with your general take on how the adds should be handled Brangeta. I will add that I think the story line concept would possibly fit the bill if done right. Setup a basic plot that involves seeing a car in action through various situations and then create a mini-series of commercials.
Example:

Have a family of four driving around in the base V6 and using the bluetooth and onstar to find a movie to go see, maybe have the kids in the back ask to listen to the new music on their iPod. Along the way they have to avoid a close call accident or two and end up running smoothly through some rough streets to arrive at the theater (likely it's showing Transformers II).

Next commercial the family is leaving the theater and find the car is stolen. They call the police and the scene jumps to a Camaro Z28 police interceptor chasing the V6 car and catching it (or maybe the stolen Camaro is in an accident but everyone is OK). Have the policeman ask the thief, "Why'd you do it?" and get a response, "Who wouldn't want a car like this." Or something to that effect.

It's late and I'm too tired to think of much beyond this (there should be some easy ways to continue the story though or to create a different story that works better), but I think you get the idea. Let the story sell the features and even show off the various options and performance levels without an announcer chatting up the audience the whole time. It makes it easy to bring in people from various demographics and show the car in various situations. And absolutely have some good humor in every commercial. People need to laugh and like to laugh.

Either that or have three frogs that grunt out, "Cah", "Mare", "Oh". (just kidding).

Brangeta

Yeah, I like that Hummer commercial too, and LOL! to the frog idea.

Those are some pretty good ideas you came up with dude. I like those. (The first two, let's stay away from the frogs! lol).

If the guy who stole the car said "who wouldn't want a car like this? One that gets 32 mpg, does 0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds, has intermittant windshield wipers, an independent suspension, and OnStar standard?" it'd be what GM is more likely to use. If you remember the old Z28 commercial a lot of the enthusiasts like (including me), it basically did just that.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZwONYWUu0Y
But I don't think it worked particularly well at reaching people who didn't already love the car.

I definitely think what is most important is to not mention features. Show them being used, and demonstrate the car. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, if people can read it in a brochure, then GM's wasting their time. Don't treat your customers as idiots. Don't have an announcer. Show them something that gets them interested.

Maserati doesn't even use words in their video for the GranTurismo and I have my freakin' jaw drooling all over my keyboard everytime I watch this. It's not a commercial, but GM needs to take a lesson from them when it comes to getting people excited! Just look at the angles, and notice that we can't see the driver, and we don't see any other people. The message this video gives to me is that the GranTurismo is: sexy, puts you in your own little world, and did I mention sexy?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5RFGgNmGIhM

These old Camaro commercials are soooo bad.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JGkgKSzaKVE
Here's the Jimi Hendrix one I was talking about in my first post. It's after some other 15 second commercial here...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9YvdREU8ejY
I didn't remember the car was a V6, but still, shut up Jimi Hendrix...The commercial really didn't teach anybody anything. It treated the Camaro as a boring POS car with nothing to offer. "You are whatcha say you are."

Brangeta

Camaroowner--

I didn't see your post until I finished responding to Tigger#76's, so I'll respond now.

Honestly, you're reading marketing considerations like GM reads them, which isn't a good thing, you're too close minded in your descriptions. (I don't mean this to sound insulting, it's just my opinion). People didn't just go and buy Mustangs. I didn't. I bought a used Toyota despite my Camaro enthusiasm . It was cheap and I needed a beater. Perhaps a good chunk of the enthusiast crowd bought Mustangs, but the enthusiasts are not a huge part of the market. Probably 20% at most.

Mustangs shouldn't be ignored, but focusing on just the Mustang is a stupid plan, just like focusing on the Mustang and the new Challenger is a stupid plan. GM should want anybody and everybody to want to consider buying a Camaro, they should want to steal customers from EVERYONE, not just Ford and Dodge.

How would GM steal customers from a company such as Volvo, who under previous circumstances, would never be considered a competitor? Well, my cousin bought a new Volvo SUV because she wanted a safe car that would hold a babyseat and hold groceries. Well, if the new Camaro holds a babyseat in the backseat, can accomodate lots of groceries, and has side curtain airbags, it'd be better to show them off in a commercial than not show them at all. If GM just focuses on how fast the darn car is, of course no new buyers are going to consider a Camaro.

The Camaro is the total package, and should be advertised as such. Even the 4th gen was a good car. Despite people's negative comments, the backseat really isn't too bad. (See picture of Jaguar XK's backseat below). And the 4th gen was a hell of a grocery getter and furniture mover. I can fit 2 grocery carts worth of food in the Camaros, yet I can only fit 1 cart worth in my Corolla. And buying a new computer desk...? Forget about the Corolla, its rear seat doesn't even fold down. You can fit a 6 foot tall bookshelf in the Camaro with the seat down! Did you ever see its everyday practicality advertised? Nope.

2008 Jaguar XK rear seat:


In fact, did you ever see any features of the Camaro advertised in a commercial, other than just a list of them? All they did was have people driving the cars and giggling. Oh boy, the car drives, OMG, I must have one! It drives! Oh wait... every other car does that... Only men who wanted fast cars and the occasional woman who wanted a fast car bought one. (My mom bought her SS new). The market was different back then, but I don't think (specifically) BMW owners were particularly interested in the 4th gens like they are the 5th gens. Take advantage of their interest and HOOK THEM on it.

...Other than that... a lot of what you talk about can't be changed by advertising. The fuel mileage and such is more of a business aspect more than advertising aspect.

Advertising can't change a product, but it can change people's perspectives on a product!

flowmotion

I just hope they show the damn car.

So many GM commercials are SFX overload and you can barely see what they're trying to sell.

camarowner

Brangeta, don't feel like I'm targeting you here, but your post gave me the most to talk about so I'm building on that. I appreciate your insights about marketing, but you're naive in suggesting that GM market the car to "everyone." You can't expect to sell it to everyone so you start with a group and segment it down into smaller groups. The most passionate group would be targeted first (the enthusiasts) and thats why I picked out Mustang and Mopar to talk about in my first post. They are also enthusiast brands. I'm aware that there are buyers outside of this group.

I owned my Camaro for a long time, and sold it for an Audi. On paper, thats a big change. You bring up Volvo (which I'll address later in the post) and if we were to build a brand-value hierarchy of just those three brands it would go like this:
1. Audi
2. Volvo
3. Chevrolet
Its harder to get someone to leave a 1 for a 3 than it is to get someone to go from a 3 to a 1. And thats not the Camaro's fault, its because for 10 or so years Detroit has been pushing out an inferior product (I know there are some exceptions to that statement) when compared to their foreign counterparts.

Detroit has many many problems that the world's top marketing and advertising firms and billions of dollars have yet to overcome. So, a thread on an enthusiast board isn't going to solve anything, but its fun to talk and debate.

The Camaro needs to be marketed around an emotion, much in the way BMW's are marketed today. "We didn't set out to make an art car..." is a fantastic example of marketing well done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnB-9ZTajS8

Well, I would argue that GM and the Camaro have a pretty strong historical following as well, and whatever ad firm is tapped will need to hit the consumer emotionally, just as in the BMW ad.

I would also argue that marketing the car based on its safety and ability to hold a babyseat/groceries is a mistake. The Volvo demographic and the Camaro demographic are two entirely different groups. The dad who buys a Volvo may indeed also want a Camaro, but he wants the Volvo as his primary grocery car, and the Camaro as his escapist vehicle. The same person may very well want two very different cars, but he won't buy the Camaro because of its ability to hold a babyseat, thusly you have to speak to his adventurist soul using an entirely different marketing campaign.

Also keep in mind that the target market is likely one with a household income of over $50,000 and one which will have at least two cars after the addition of the Camaro. The way your post was constructed it sounded as if your buyer needed to make the choice of only owning one car. This isn't where GM would want to target, they would want to go upscale and not advertise based on a price point.

You can't just swoop in and take away the image of Volvo (the undisputed leader in safety) which has been building for decades by an ad campaign for a Camaro. You don't buy a Volvo without some strong convictions. GM would need to set out to move the Camaro brand-image into one of safety and reliability for many years to follow before taking sales from Volvo. With that said, Volvo has had 25+ years to build itself into the safety leader. The Camaro has had 30 years to keep its name at (or near) the top of the performance group. By suggesting that GM target Volvo (or any other sedan/wagon maker) to build its sales numbers just isn't advisable.

It would be an outrage to enthusiasts (the bread-and-butter demographic for the Camaro) to suggest using the car as a grocery getter. You risk alienating them by suggesting the car is great for babies when in reality they're buying the car to escape from their responibilities.

Brangeta

Camarowner--

You are exactly right, when choosing your competitors, you do have to limit yourself to those most similar to what you have to offer. You can't appeal to everyone. However, there are benefits to giving people the perception that your product is also competitive to their own segment. That benefit, of course being that you get them interested in considering your product as well. The way you keep their interest is by actually delivering "the goods," which in the case of my Volvo example, could be explained by having available options that appeal to that type of consumer, whereas some of these options would not be considered by the enthusiast crowd. This is not to say that Volvo needs to necessarily be considered a competitor internally (as in, within the company, where mentions of Mustang, Challenger, etc are just fine), but that externally (to the public) GM should not limit themselves by comparing their Camaro to who they think their public is also considering. By doing so, they limit their appeal, and give the public opinions they should have formed on their own.

Using myself as an example, I am having a harder time choosing between the Pontiac G8 and the new Camaro, than I am between it and the Mustang, Challenger, etc. Everyone is different in this segment of the market, so it is best to try to appeal to more than just the Mustang, Challenger, etc. buyer.

Again, you are right about the Camaro basically being considered an inferior product. However, this is why a commercial similar to the BMW one you posted wouldn't work. In most people's eyes (not mine necessarily since I have no interest in them), BMWs represent class, style, and a great product. In many ways, BMWs are considered the price for admission into having class and style. These are things to look up to. To the people that GM needs to attract, the old cars don't represent any of this. They represent rednecks, mullets, and white trash doing burnouts. Sad, but true. That is what many people think. Only enthusiasts would care to see a commercial emphasizing history. The regular buying public just wants to know what the current Camaro can do for them, and don't give a crap about nostalgia.

Chevy already has the enthusiasts excited to buy the car. Why waste money on that? 99% of Camaro enthusiasts have had about 3 years to realize there's a new Camaro coming out to buy. Emotion won't work in a commercial in my opinion, because everyone that "emotion" would appeal to, has already decided "yes, I want that car!!!" or "I liked the way the 4th gens looked, this doesn't appeal to me", or a decision between those two extremes.

What GM needs are the people who don't have any brand loyalty with Chevy. Ideally, they need to create commercials that get these people interested while satisfying the enthusiasts who don't ever want to see a commercial without some exhaust rumble and that "cool confidence" we all know the Camaro has represented. You always have to balance getting new people interested with keeping the ones you already have.

That is why I have suggested all along that the Camaro needs to be advertised as the car for the guy who doesn't have to make excuses. He doesn't need the Volvo, because the new Camaro is all he needs. He can use it everywhere and everyday. Marketing the Camaro as an escapist's vehicle is dumb, because all that does is limit your market for no good reason. What? All of a sudden the Camaro is a Corvette or Solstice? What about those backseats? What about that usable trunk?

Not my plan, or my suggestion. My suggestion is that GM does not limit the scope of their audience by focusing too much on performance, when in fact the car can be used for so many different things and appeal to so many different people.

I think you focused too much on my Volvo example and not on what I was saying as a whole...

camarowner

Glad you came around! Anyway, lets get back into it. When you buy a car, you want to become an enthusiast. The manufacturer wants to make you an enthusiast. Lets use Saturn here; Saturn made entry-level, boring boxcars, but because of the way they built their brand, they convinced their buyers to drive thousands of miles to have a picnic with the corporation and other owners.

These people became enthusiasts and brand ambassadors for Saturn. Nothing embodies a person's personality like their automobile. If you own a car, you are likely an enthusiast of that car at some level. I stated thats where you start. Start with the enthusiasts and then turn the unconverted (normal guy) into an enthusiast.

Potential Camaro buyers could be called "pre-enthusiasts" because GM intends to make these people into enthusiasts. These people WANT to be enthusiasts. We're not running advertising TO enthusiasts, we're running it for wanna-be enthusiasts. Future enthusiasts.

Certainly theres a mullet quality about the history of the Camaro. That's a gut reaction. There's no question that image is one that needs subdued. The creative direction of the ads will have a lot to do with that, but thats about 900 steps down the development pipeline from what we're discussing now.

You mentioning the G8 enforces my original concern (voiced in my first post) about the brand-extension and cannibalism risk. I used the GTO, Solstice and Sky.

Lets not even talk about cars. Soup. Cambell's Soup outsold all other new products launched last year with their new Reduced Sodium line. They marketed the soup as tasting great and giving you the warm feeling that a soup should. As a subheading, the public were aware that the soup was lower in sodium but they didn't make that their main selling point. People want it to taste good. Its a bonus that it was low in sodium.

Camaro buyers will want and expect a fast, aggressive, escapist car. It will obviously hold a babyseat and groceries. If we're going by your line of thought we'll also need to buy commercials showing the camaro starting when you turn a key, we'll need to highlight that it can drive in the dark, and we'll also need to show that it will shield you from the weather. Obvious functions of a car.

So you're interested in the G8. What commercial did you see for that car showing groceries going in? Did you see ANY commercials for that car explaining features? The best commercial for that car (and for my money one of the best auto commercials airing right now) is the "Spy Hunter" G8 commercial. You'll never dodge bombs dropped by a helicopter in your G8, but it gets you excited doesn't it?

Which brings us back to my main point. Emotion. Market the car using emotion, not features. And for the person who posted about hearing that throaty exhaust - its hitting you emotionally. There's no need to even say how large the engine is if you can make the viewer's heart skip a beat with a simple rev.

The current Cadillac advertising is successful in this way. And what better brand to pull Detroit out of the dumpster than their premier luxury brand.

And yes I focused on Volvo, but any other category leader can be used. Quality? Mercedes Benz/Audi (German Engineering)
Reliability? Honda/Toyota
Sustainability (MPG)? Honda/Toyota
Value? Hyundai/Kia
The point I was making is that these brands (like Volvo) have spent years honing their position as the leaders of their category. Any other category than Perfomance (where the Camaro lives) will be like a chisel to the marble that is the category leader. I just went on and on about Volvo but I hope this makes my intentions clearer.

I love our discussion by the way. Who knew after a few years away I'd pop in just to see what's going on and have the best discussion in the history of my membership on this board. What I don't know about opti-sparks I can make up for in this discussion. Cheers.

camarowner

To clarify (because I dont think our positions are all that different):

What I'm saying is that the Camaro is not an El Camino, no one needs to know you can shove a bookcase into it. If you only own one car, you're going to find a way to get a bookcase into it. (Look at the VW beetles IKEA uses to advertise) However, if your friend had a truck, you'd go straight for the truck. If you were drag racing you wouldn't take your friend's truck, you'd take your Camaro. I'm merely asking you to not confuse your audience by showing the Camaro moving all of your stuff. When they bought it to look good and go fast (or appear to have the ability to go fast).

Tigger#76

As camarowner mentioned in his last post, I don't think the two points of view are that different, and are more likely hung up on semantics.

To put my personal spin on what I've gotten out of Brangeta's comments. The Camaro should be advertised as the car that makes it fun to drive to work again. Show that the car can do what a car needs to do to be practical, but that it makes the mundane exciting again. In that regard it fits in directly with camarowner's comments about emotions as selling points.

I think if you can show people that the car makes you want it while also showing that it works for daily transport too, you've just hit a successful ad. You want the enthusiast driver to crave the car for the driving experience and you want their spouse/partner to agree with the purchase because the car can do more than just be fun to drive. In other words, if you can make the car look like a toy with basic transport capabilities then I think you've got a winner.

In some ways I'm reminded of an Acura or Honda commercial from a few years back (at least I think it was Acura/Honda) with the car winding through the road and arriving home. The spouse asks where the milk is (or something like that), and the guy says, I forgot, hops back in the car and takes off again. It showed that the car was addictive to drive, but could also get the groceries if you didn't get too caught up in the driving to forget. I didn't really care for that particular spot, but it could have been tweaked some to really pull the ad together for that car.

Going back to my earlier thoughts, maybe you make the second commercial start with the stolen car, but have the chase be with some other police car (like the Dodge Charger that's getting so much police use around here lately), and the Camaro gets away when the chase car runs out of gas. Then you have the sequence where the car gets caught by another Camaro, wrecked, or shut down via onstar. And yes, I agree that if the thief got out and ran down the list of features then it would be closer to what is likely to happen, but not at all what should happen.

Basically the car should be allowed to sell itself in the commercials, without the overhead of someone talking down to people by making certain they don't miss anything.

missmy79

I wish they would just have the car replace the vette at one of the nascar races. No announcements or anything. Can you imagine the free press?

Mjolnir

I'm really enjoying the multi-paragraph novels explaining how GM should do what other manufacturers have already figured out.

It's an interesting commentary on GM that we, as a community, think they need to have their hands held.

Brangeta

Tigger#76-- I think you hit the nail on the head. I think you got what we were both saying, maybe even a little better than I did!

missmy79-- That would be a cool idea, and actually a fairly likely idea.

Mjolnir-- Cool! I'm glad a few people enjoyed some of the insanely long posts. I was afraid at first that people wouldn't want to read them.

camarowner

Yeah we definately got carried away, thanks for bringing it back Tigger.

We all love the new car and I know I'm going to stop what I'm doing when I see one drive by. Now all GM has to do is make me drop what I'm doing when I see it on TV.

Big Als Z

There are a hundred ideas out there, and Im sure that they are going to try to find that medium.
While you dont want to have a commercial about all out performance, a lot of those older Camaro commercials didnt have an ounce of performance in them! The one with the kids is too childish. But I do remember that commercial as a kid.
The one where the two women are driving in that V6 somewhere in the desert, that was good! That got the point of the car across.
1- You can have fun
2- Girls are enjoying it
3- Its a car to be driven
4- Camaro is a fun car to drive
It didnt have to mention engines or abilities. I think that at some point you will have information overload. If you flash up a bunch of info, or talk about all the things, it gets carried away. Its a wash of info and image, none of which goes anywhere.
Hummer has some of the best commercials out there. Bar none, there is no one out there that has better commercials. They are creative, they stick in your mind, and they are funny, BUT THEY GET THE POINT OUT!! The monsters having an H3 baby. It gets the point out that this is a baby monster (helps that it says it too) but it gets the point out that its a smaller version of bigger Hummers, but still part of the bloodline, the bloodline that draws in the people that WANT a vehicle like that, but not the size!!
So they get the Hummer name, the image, the brand recognition, but without the H2 or H1's price, fuel econ, and massive physical footprint.

Camaro needs to get that same point across, and I dont think tahts going to happen. Unless they hire a new ad agency, its going to be just like the rest of the American Rev commercials. Ugh, that song stinks, John Melencamp stinks, his voice sucks...ugh just want to hit mute.

As I said before, it needs to get in touch with the people that want to drive cars. Not just go from point A to B with little fanfare, but with a passion. V6, V8, quad turbo Ecotec, doesnt matter. It needs to show off its strengths.

1- design. This car is hot and its design is sharp. They need to make sure that they show the car's many sides, show people that this is a beautiful car. Dont talk about available V8 or side curtain air bags...just talk about how beautiful teh car is, and show the design elements.

2- performance. Belive it or not, its a RWD sports car. The performance thing goes along with it. Trying to shun it or shut it out will only **** off the greater enthusiast community, calling it a wussified Camaro. In these commercials, you talk about its poise an stance. You talk about how its performance helps you day to day. IFS/IRS to soak up bumps and curves. V6 with V8 power with no hit in fuel economy thanks to direct injection. Make this car a car to be driven, not just another car on the road that looks good. Get the point across that this car is a sports coupe. Dont talk about its 550hp mega-ton performance, but talk about its quick and agile handling. Talk more about the ride and performance in the respect of day to day, not track to track.

3- quality and saftey. Have a whole series of ads focusing on the quality and saftey of the car. Talk about added stabilitrac to keep you on the road in bad conditions. How it adapts to keep you safe. Talk about its chassis strength for saftey when accidents do happen. You can make these a bit softer, and perhaps talk about small familes. Have a mother and father in the car, mom driving the Camaro, baby in back. Dont show any VW style slamming of cars, but just have them enjoying the car. Maybe going on a little day trip up in the mountains, driving by a car pulled over to the side of the road, overheated. Dad's under the hood with smoking coming out of the rad. As they go further, they find another car with a flat tire. Talk about OnStar diagnostics that can tell them if there is something wrong with the car in an email. This commercial got the point otu that the car is a drivers car, but its safe and sound due to the technology that is in it and helps you steer away from problems.

4-enthusiastic. GM cannot and will not forget about its Camaro past and the fans of this car. There are so many websites and clubs world wide that worship this car, that they could not leave us out in the cold. Maybe show a big cork board with pictures of people with familes, friends, and thier Camaro. Just show the wall of pictures with letters, and then pan out to a design studio where you can see Camaro's being inspected, designs of ideas, clay models, things like that. You cant talk about Camarow ith out bringing up its past. So you bring up the fact that many people did have Camaro's as family cars, or how life long friends became friends cause of Camaro. Camaro MEANS Friend!! So why not talk about the relationship and love that people have for the car.

Thats my input about advertising. I would hope that we get to see at least one of the 4 groups there, or a combo of them.