GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
04-20-2006, 12:06 PM
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GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
I've often joked that Bob Lutz is the biggest leak at General Motors.
Mr Lutz is the Product Development chairman at General Motors Global Operations, the 1st person at General Motors to ever hold this title. Previosly, product development was a "president" level position, easily overruled, or have programs muddled by chairmans who perhaps had a better knowledge of statistics and studies than automobiles.
Bob Lutz's greatest impact at GM is not just personally taking on many levels of product approval & channeling them through his office (throwing off some GM veterans time predictions for new models) but also coordinating General Motor's global products. For instance if a big RWD car is being worked on in Australia, GM doesn't spend money developing a similar structure here.
Although Lutz is a car guy, he also essentially ran Chrysler, so he's a business man 1st and foremost. He allocates money & resources and sets priorities & is privy to all aspects of any vehicle development. He (and his office) are essentially the only people who know what both the right and left hands of GM are doing, and above every other source I or anyone has, is the final word.
As a Chairman at General Motors, Bob Lutz pretty much makes the decision on what cars are made. GM's "Product Planning Comittee" (a group from different departments at GM including board members) traditionally looked at all aspects of a proposed program. With Bob Lutz in his position, the PPC now essentially serves as the finance people. Everyone agrees to comit the funds and the resources (a non reversable decision), and the vehicle is "officially" a go.
In short, ANYTHING Bob Lutz says is going to happen WILL unless GM simply can't afford it.
With that being said, and the fact that not everyone keeps up with what the guy says (and there's lots of clueless newbys around here
) I wanted to post a list of things Bob Lutz has said lately. Keep in mind he doesn't say things to play politics or "force" GM's board to do things. If he talks about anything, it's already cleared his office.
In his exact words:
On Camaro:
"All of us are hoping (the Camaro) will be a production-approved program in the very near future. We're all working on it as if it were an approved program.
We're not wasting any time....There is no reason to assume they would turn it down.... (We're) confident it will be" approved."
(meaning: it's in full swing)
On Firebird (to all Firebird zelots who keep asking the same thing repeatedly):
"No, that’s not something we are planning. We are not going to do that car”
(meaning: it was looked at and rejected. It's dead. End of story.)
On a Chevy El Camino:
"The kids in the company, myself included, would love to do another El Camino, but the grown-ups amongst us don’t share that way of thinking...
It would be fairly simple. We’d only have to put a Chevrolet face on the Holden Ute... the building blocks are there.”
(meaning: it would be nothing to make & Bob's in favor of it. But getting the board to pay for it is another story.)
On GTO (and indirectly saying that it will be tied to the Camaro or rather vice versa):
" (GTO) was only ever off for two months, but that break has enabled us to get a more feasible program up (Zeta)...
Holden is responsible for the large rear-drive architecture that these cars are based on. If it happens, Holden will do the development on the Camaro as well as the GTO.
Whether the GTO will be built in Australia will largely depend on the exchange rate at the time. With the current strength of the Australian dollar and the recent Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the U.S., it would be more feasible to build the GTO in North America. ”
(meaning: GTO is no doubt on, and Holden is going to sell a version of it)
On what happened to the Zeta RWD program:
"The reason we said it was canceled is because that way our people would put their pencils down. In GM if you say something is deferred, then people keep working on it. We really needed to get that message through to everybody.
...the program was getting out of control. It was my fault that it got out of control in the first place. It was going to be the world’s greatest car and apparently cost nothing to make. So we’ve started over now. The program is back on and it’s going full tilt.”
(meaning: Full tilt=top priority. The project is moving at full throttle. Funds are being diverted to this project from everywhere else.)
On the new Zeta program:
"We have developed different dash-to-front-axle lengths for various models. It (Zeta) is a really flexible platform.”
(meaning: Camaro does not indicate the size of Impala, and thinking Monte Carlo won't happen or that GTO will be a rebodied Camaro is probally a mistake.)
Also worth noting is that he refers to the Buick Zeta as the Statesman (a Holden luxury model). The next CTS will be exported to Australia, so one can draw their own conclusions.
He also says that Zeta will also be the basis of the replacement of the Impala and Monte Carlo. Being that the GTO will not be a rebadged Camaro, and apparently the new GTO's case is based on just 15-20K cars per year, one can also speculate on the Monte Carlo "replacement" as well.
Mr Lutz is the Product Development chairman at General Motors Global Operations, the 1st person at General Motors to ever hold this title. Previosly, product development was a "president" level position, easily overruled, or have programs muddled by chairmans who perhaps had a better knowledge of statistics and studies than automobiles.
Bob Lutz's greatest impact at GM is not just personally taking on many levels of product approval & channeling them through his office (throwing off some GM veterans time predictions for new models) but also coordinating General Motor's global products. For instance if a big RWD car is being worked on in Australia, GM doesn't spend money developing a similar structure here.
Although Lutz is a car guy, he also essentially ran Chrysler, so he's a business man 1st and foremost. He allocates money & resources and sets priorities & is privy to all aspects of any vehicle development. He (and his office) are essentially the only people who know what both the right and left hands of GM are doing, and above every other source I or anyone has, is the final word.
As a Chairman at General Motors, Bob Lutz pretty much makes the decision on what cars are made. GM's "Product Planning Comittee" (a group from different departments at GM including board members) traditionally looked at all aspects of a proposed program. With Bob Lutz in his position, the PPC now essentially serves as the finance people. Everyone agrees to comit the funds and the resources (a non reversable decision), and the vehicle is "officially" a go.
In short, ANYTHING Bob Lutz says is going to happen WILL unless GM simply can't afford it.
With that being said, and the fact that not everyone keeps up with what the guy says (and there's lots of clueless newbys around here
) I wanted to post a list of things Bob Lutz has said lately. Keep in mind he doesn't say things to play politics or "force" GM's board to do things. If he talks about anything, it's already cleared his office. In his exact words:
On Camaro:
"All of us are hoping (the Camaro) will be a production-approved program in the very near future. We're all working on it as if it were an approved program.
We're not wasting any time....There is no reason to assume they would turn it down.... (We're) confident it will be" approved."
(meaning: it's in full swing)
On Firebird (to all Firebird zelots who keep asking the same thing repeatedly):
"No, that’s not something we are planning. We are not going to do that car”
(meaning: it was looked at and rejected. It's dead. End of story.)
On a Chevy El Camino:
"The kids in the company, myself included, would love to do another El Camino, but the grown-ups amongst us don’t share that way of thinking...
It would be fairly simple. We’d only have to put a Chevrolet face on the Holden Ute... the building blocks are there.”
(meaning: it would be nothing to make & Bob's in favor of it. But getting the board to pay for it is another story.)
On GTO (and indirectly saying that it will be tied to the Camaro or rather vice versa):
" (GTO) was only ever off for two months, but that break has enabled us to get a more feasible program up (Zeta)...
Holden is responsible for the large rear-drive architecture that these cars are based on. If it happens, Holden will do the development on the Camaro as well as the GTO.
Whether the GTO will be built in Australia will largely depend on the exchange rate at the time. With the current strength of the Australian dollar and the recent Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the U.S., it would be more feasible to build the GTO in North America. ”
(meaning: GTO is no doubt on, and Holden is going to sell a version of it)
On what happened to the Zeta RWD program:
"The reason we said it was canceled is because that way our people would put their pencils down. In GM if you say something is deferred, then people keep working on it. We really needed to get that message through to everybody.
...the program was getting out of control. It was my fault that it got out of control in the first place. It was going to be the world’s greatest car and apparently cost nothing to make. So we’ve started over now. The program is back on and it’s going full tilt.”
(meaning: Full tilt=top priority. The project is moving at full throttle. Funds are being diverted to this project from everywhere else.)
On the new Zeta program:
"We have developed different dash-to-front-axle lengths for various models. It (Zeta) is a really flexible platform.”
(meaning: Camaro does not indicate the size of Impala, and thinking Monte Carlo won't happen or that GTO will be a rebodied Camaro is probally a mistake.)
Also worth noting is that he refers to the Buick Zeta as the Statesman (a Holden luxury model). The next CTS will be exported to Australia, so one can draw their own conclusions.
He also says that Zeta will also be the basis of the replacement of the Impala and Monte Carlo. Being that the GTO will not be a rebadged Camaro, and apparently the new GTO's case is based on just 15-20K cars per year, one can also speculate on the Monte Carlo "replacement" as well.
Last edited by guionM; 04-20-2006 at 12:30 PM.
04-20-2006, 12:51 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
Given the fact that Monte Carlo and Camaro truly are significantly different cars, and that Monte Carlo (for a big two-door) sells reasonably well, I never thought that Camaro was a suitible replacement or should be pursued as the car that would kill off the Monte.
Monte Carlo is the last holdover from what I believe on of the best eras in GM's history was stylingwise - the era that saw big, beautiful 2 door cars all over the place from roughly the early 70's to the mid/late 80's.
I remember seeing G-bodies all over the place, the epically beautiful early 19080's Buick Riviera and Cadillac Eldorado and a raft of other great cars.
While the tastes have shifted to 4 doors and particularly SUV's, the styling compromises inherent in both leave the way open for a turly beautiful, big 2-door.
Unfortunately, in the looks department, the recent Monte Carlos have not delivered.
Much like Camaro, I believe that a big 2-door has an inherent following that almost guarantees a certain amount of sales, but unlike Camaro there are very, very few companies looking to compete in the area.
The Toyota Solara is an unmitigated flop. Ford doesn't have a big 2-door any more that I can recall. Chrysler doesn't make one either. I think the 6-series is dead or dying... The Riviera that shared a platform with Aurora was nothing short of ugly...
My plan would be as follows:
1) Style a beautiful Monte Carlo, and use the 1983 Riviera as a styling template - but with the appropriate brand changes (no waterfall grill, etc...), the important things to nail are the vertical backlight, short deck/long hood, and the coke-bottle side profile.
2) Alternately, style a 2-door Buick off of it and sell that. Should that be the case, the car to look at then for the Chevrolet is the same year Cadillac Eldorado. There's a fine tradition of Chevrolet cribbing off of Cadillac for styling.
3) Don't be afraid of chrome and beautiful detailing. The lamp indicators on the tops of the fenders of that era Riviera were really cool... and the "Wreath and Crest" hood ornaments and the the Riviera's hood ornament were beautiful. I'm kinda bummed that stand-up hood ornaments are dead. For Chevrolet, I understand the understated simplicity of the bow-tie, but always thought the recent Monte Carlos suffered from being too plain - the "Shield and Helmet" just kind of got lost...
4) For a Buick off the same platform, those details are critical.
5) Matter-of-fact... if you look closely at an early 1960's Cadillac interior compared to what we get now (even from Cadillac or Mercedes or Audi) the comparison is just stunning. Modern instrument panels, dashes and center stacks just look cheap, plain and terrible. I know the fits weren't all that good back then... but the finishing was unreal... chrome and body-color paint all over the places... beautifully detailed ***** and controls, AND EVERY STINKING ONE OF THEM HAD EITHER A CHROME WREATH OR THE WREATH AND CREST.
6) The old chrome Fisher Body window and seat switches just blow away the boring black plastic blobs we get now. One beautiful touch for Chevrolet to implement in the new generation of RWD cars would be to resurrect them along with real-deal chrome belt latch housings like the old Fisher Body ones, but maybe with modern releases instead of the old push buttons. Remember the detailing on those push buttons? The Fisher coach in multiple colors? Why can't detailing like that return? Now, you wouldn't put the coach on it, but a Camaro should at least have the red, white and blue flag there...
Monte Carlo is the last holdover from what I believe on of the best eras in GM's history was stylingwise - the era that saw big, beautiful 2 door cars all over the place from roughly the early 70's to the mid/late 80's.
I remember seeing G-bodies all over the place, the epically beautiful early 19080's Buick Riviera and Cadillac Eldorado and a raft of other great cars.
While the tastes have shifted to 4 doors and particularly SUV's, the styling compromises inherent in both leave the way open for a turly beautiful, big 2-door.
Unfortunately, in the looks department, the recent Monte Carlos have not delivered.
Much like Camaro, I believe that a big 2-door has an inherent following that almost guarantees a certain amount of sales, but unlike Camaro there are very, very few companies looking to compete in the area.
The Toyota Solara is an unmitigated flop. Ford doesn't have a big 2-door any more that I can recall. Chrysler doesn't make one either. I think the 6-series is dead or dying... The Riviera that shared a platform with Aurora was nothing short of ugly...
My plan would be as follows:
1) Style a beautiful Monte Carlo, and use the 1983 Riviera as a styling template - but with the appropriate brand changes (no waterfall grill, etc...), the important things to nail are the vertical backlight, short deck/long hood, and the coke-bottle side profile.
2) Alternately, style a 2-door Buick off of it and sell that. Should that be the case, the car to look at then for the Chevrolet is the same year Cadillac Eldorado. There's a fine tradition of Chevrolet cribbing off of Cadillac for styling.
3) Don't be afraid of chrome and beautiful detailing. The lamp indicators on the tops of the fenders of that era Riviera were really cool... and the "Wreath and Crest" hood ornaments and the the Riviera's hood ornament were beautiful. I'm kinda bummed that stand-up hood ornaments are dead. For Chevrolet, I understand the understated simplicity of the bow-tie, but always thought the recent Monte Carlos suffered from being too plain - the "Shield and Helmet" just kind of got lost...
4) For a Buick off the same platform, those details are critical.
5) Matter-of-fact... if you look closely at an early 1960's Cadillac interior compared to what we get now (even from Cadillac or Mercedes or Audi) the comparison is just stunning. Modern instrument panels, dashes and center stacks just look cheap, plain and terrible. I know the fits weren't all that good back then... but the finishing was unreal... chrome and body-color paint all over the places... beautifully detailed ***** and controls, AND EVERY STINKING ONE OF THEM HAD EITHER A CHROME WREATH OR THE WREATH AND CREST.
6) The old chrome Fisher Body window and seat switches just blow away the boring black plastic blobs we get now. One beautiful touch for Chevrolet to implement in the new generation of RWD cars would be to resurrect them along with real-deal chrome belt latch housings like the old Fisher Body ones, but maybe with modern releases instead of the old push buttons. Remember the detailing on those push buttons? The Fisher coach in multiple colors? Why can't detailing like that return? Now, you wouldn't put the coach on it, but a Camaro should at least have the red, white and blue flag there...
Last edited by PacerX; 04-20-2006 at 12:53 PM.
04-20-2006, 01:14 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
You have a lot of great ideas there. Costly ideas, unfortunately. They would suit the Buick well as it commands a price premium. It would also differentiate the models so that you can actually see what you are getting for your money. I especially like your idea of the pull straps w/ buckles.
04-20-2006, 02:43 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
I am not in favor of making the Monte Carlo RWD, or replacing it at all for that matter. Not when there could potentially be both a GTO and some yet to be seen Buick coupe.
04-20-2006, 04:11 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
I am not in favor of making the Monte Carlo RWD, or replacing it at all for that matter. Not when there could potentially be both a GTO and some yet to be seen Buick coupe.
04-20-2006, 06:40 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
If GM is combining Buick & Pontiac and GTO pretty much carved in stone, I would think there's little chance of a Buick coupe. Especially if Cadillac is also getting one (though a convertible Roadster might be a different story).
On the other hand, with Chevrolet alone pumping out about 2/3s of all General Motors automotive sales, I think Chevrolet has the muscle to get any car they want. Especially if it helps them take the title of the number 1 selling brand in America (their stated goal).
Also, with Monte Carlo sales alone topping the entire Saab division by nearly 2 to 1 in the US, matching the entire Hummer division, running 2/3s the sales number of the Buick Lecrosse, and currently being one of the top 3 selling coupes in the US, I would think it would be pretty hard to make a case against a replacement Monte Carlo.
Also worth pointing out is that when the Camaro died Monte Carlo sales saw no spike, bearing out that MC buyers were a totally different group than Camaro's. GTO's demographics also turned out to be completely different from Monte Carlo buyers, which also had no affect on MC sales.
Again, it would probally be tough to make an arguement against a Monte Carlo replacement.
On the other hand, with Chevrolet alone pumping out about 2/3s of all General Motors automotive sales, I think Chevrolet has the muscle to get any car they want. Especially if it helps them take the title of the number 1 selling brand in America (their stated goal).
Also, with Monte Carlo sales alone topping the entire Saab division by nearly 2 to 1 in the US, matching the entire Hummer division, running 2/3s the sales number of the Buick Lecrosse, and currently being one of the top 3 selling coupes in the US, I would think it would be pretty hard to make a case against a replacement Monte Carlo.
Also worth pointing out is that when the Camaro died Monte Carlo sales saw no spike, bearing out that MC buyers were a totally different group than Camaro's. GTO's demographics also turned out to be completely different from Monte Carlo buyers, which also had no affect on MC sales.
Again, it would probally be tough to make an arguement against a Monte Carlo replacement.
Last edited by guionM; 04-20-2006 at 06:51 PM.
04-20-2006, 07:19 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
But on the other hand, would Monte Carlo still have the same non-Camaro demographic of buyers if it becomes a Zeta coupe derivative? How are they going to be differentiated?
04-20-2006, 09:06 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
But on the other hand, would Monte Carlo still have the same non-Camaro demographic of buyers if it becomes a Zeta coupe derivative? How are they going to be differentiated?
If it's any consolation, Mustang buyers and Monte Carlo buyers don't cross shop. Yet Mustang buyers and Grand Am buyers did.
04-20-2006, 09:37 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
Originally Posted by IREngineer
Will EPII stretch enough for a FWD coupe the size of the current MC? That, IMO, has to be plan A for the Monte.
Here's another thing. Is FWD a big part of Monte Carlo's current formula? I say yes. I wonder how many people actually buy MC, strictly because it's FWD?
04-20-2006, 10:31 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
I think they have to be careful. I'm all for all of Pontiac jumping on Zeta - God knows they need it.
Chevy on the other hand is the volume seller and needs to still crank out 300k Impalas a year. Can they do that with RWD?... I dunno...
I think they should grow the Malibu a tad and replace the Impala with it. Move the Impala to a slightly bigger (300C) type car with Zeta.
Monte Carlo... I don't know if FWD/RWD would make much of a difference here. But my 55yr/old Mom just bought a new MC. She likes FWD. With the Camaro/Impala they might have the RWD covered in Chevy and leave the rest of the FWD cars alone.
It will definitly be interesting to see what they decide to do that's for sure.
Chevy on the other hand is the volume seller and needs to still crank out 300k Impalas a year. Can they do that with RWD?... I dunno...
I think they should grow the Malibu a tad and replace the Impala with it. Move the Impala to a slightly bigger (300C) type car with Zeta.
Monte Carlo... I don't know if FWD/RWD would make much of a difference here. But my 55yr/old Mom just bought a new MC. She likes FWD. With the Camaro/Impala they might have the RWD covered in Chevy and leave the rest of the FWD cars alone.
It will definitly be interesting to see what they decide to do that's for sure.
04-20-2006, 11:02 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
With the Camaro/Impala they might have the RWD covered in Chevy and leave the rest of the FWD cars alone.
.
.
Which leaves, depending on how you calculate it, capacity for another 50,000 to 150,000 Zeta II's. What will they be??? And which division(s) will get them??? That's what's getting nailed down.
Last edited by Z284ever; 04-20-2006 at 11:38 PM.
04-20-2006, 11:04 PM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
I have no idea why they'd bring back the Monte Carlo. Ask yourself this: is it even slightly a coincidence the Camaro's sales went down ten years ago when the Monte Carlo was brought back. My parents cross shopped them, only settling on the Camaro because of rwd. Does GM need another two door to compete with Camaro? NO! Give the Camaro a decent back seat and forget the Monte Carlo.
04-21-2006, 12:19 AM
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Re: GM's RWD program.... directly from the approval guy himself.
Originally Posted by Z284ever
That's for sure. Impala alone will probably match all of DCX's LX cars - combined - for volume. Camaro will try to match Mustang's . Impala and Camaro will represent the lion's share of Zeta II production. ****(Yeah Zeta II. New term. You heard it here first)********.
Which leaves, depending on how you calculate it, capacity for another 50,000 to 150,000 Zeta II's. What will they be??? And which division(s) will get them??? That's what's getting nailed down.
Which leaves, depending on how you calculate it, capacity for another 50,000 to 150,000 Zeta II's. What will they be??? And which division(s) will get them??? That's what's getting nailed down.
So what happened to Zeta one? Did it run its full production cycle while I was taking my nap?
And what ever happened to "GM Global RWD"?