Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
02-16-2006, 01:04 PM
#62
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I don't think so. Maybe getting close, but not set.
Things to be decided:
1) Which base V6?
2) Will there be an entry level V8? (alot here depends on the final decision on question #1).
3) Which top engine above the standard "performance" V8?
Things to be decided:
1) Which base V6?
2) Will there be an entry level V8? (alot here depends on the final decision on question #1).
3) Which top engine above the standard "performance" V8?
Powertrain decisions have to be made fairly early for CAFE impact on the company, certification schedules and report to the Feds on CAFE projections (typically 2 years out). The Feds keep this info in confidence, and even if a vehicle is simply a non finalized proposal, that info and a report of compliance goes to the Government. Someone with more detail can elaborate more.
Also, it's important to have drivetrain chosen early because as part of a vehicles approval process is to have a report on how it's components are going to impact the rest of the company. Say GM's plant is capable of making 100K of engine "X". If you are going to add a vehicle that's expected to sell 75K more of engine "X", the investment in the engine plant to up production is going to have to be done, components of engine "X" is going to have to be sourced out, suppliers to the plant making engine "X" have to make changes to up production, and so on. If an engine or tranny isn't going to be possible due to budget, or if a company decides to use an engine from a line that has more capacity, they will need to chose that engine instead.
That doesn't even include the engineering needed for that particular engine top be installed in the car (more horses mean more heat... more heat means more cooling... more cooling means bigger system.... bigger sistem means a structure that can handle airflow... etc...)
As a result, engine decisions tend to be made and factored in well before any presentation is made.
I defer to our resident experts or Camaro guy on details on picking what engines are going to be used, but rule out the LS7. Simply look at the facility it's made at, look at the cost to manufacture, and decide does the capacity exist to fill the Camaro volume and is it cost effective.
But remember, the LS1's replacement (the LS2) puts out LS6 power for less money, and that a engine facility that produces a million engines of a particular displacement for a truck line can easily incorperate pistons, heads, etc into engines they are already making with minimal changes for a top level passenger car powerplant.
PS: As for the V6 and base V8 having the similar horsepower, you guys are missing out on one key item...... the V8 has more TORQUE..... and more marketing magic. The V8 is going to be quite a bit quicker. I'd expect the top V8 to be in a higher priced model.
Last edited by guionM; 02-16-2006 at 01:21 PM.
02-16-2006, 01:08 PM
#63
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by jg95z28
In short, for the majority of ponycar buyers, why would you pay up for a base V8, when a V6 can do eveything you need for less money.
There's something mystical and magical that makes buyers want v8s even if there are more than adequeate V6's available.
FWIW I still agree with Jason E here. I see your point but disagree. You're looking at this far too logically. Car buying is NOT a logical process, it is an emotional process. The mere fact muscle cars exist bears that out.
02-16-2006, 01:29 PM
#64
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
FWIW I still agree with Jason E here. I see your point but disagree. You're looking at this far too logically. Car buying is NOT a logical process, it is an emotional process. The mere fact muscle cars exist bears that out.
For one, my search starts and ends with Chevrolet. I won't even consider another brand.
Secondly, I fully intend to purchase the top end Camaro, therefore I'm hoping for an LS9 and would never consider a "base" V8. If no LS9, whatever the most powerful motor available is.
However some people just want a Camaro and are less passionate about what lurks under the hood. A friend of mine is a long time Camaro/Corvette enthusiast. We often talk cars and he used to have a 67 SS. The 4th gen Camaro he purchased was a V6. He could have afforded a V8 but he and his wife liked the particular shade of blue it came in. When he retired recently he bought himself a Corvette. Huge difference between a V6 Camaro and a Corvette, but not in his mind. I guess when you get older, raw V8 horsepower is not as important as style and comfort.
Assuming Guy is correct and we're really looking at sometime in April 2008 for a launch, I'm guessing it'll be tagged a 2009 Camaro. (Heck its only February and they're already selling 2007 Tahoes and Suburbans.) By then I'd imagine the LS2 will be history and we'll be seeing other options in the powertrain category. (Heck who knows, perhaps they're considering a hybrid version.
)
02-16-2006, 02:10 PM
#65
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by jg95z28
I have to agree with you on that one. I personally don't use logic when I buy new cars.
For one, my search starts and ends with Chevrolet. I won't even consider another brand.
Secondly, I fully intend to purchase the top end Camaro, therefore I'm hoping for an LS9 and would never consider a "base" V8. If no LS9, whatever the most powerful motor available is.
However some people just want a Camaro and are less passionate about what lurks under the hood. A friend of mine is a long time Camaro/Corvette enthusiast. We often talk cars and he used to have a 67 SS. The 4th gen Camaro he purchased was a V6. He could have afforded a V8 but he and his wife liked the particular shade of blue it came in. When he retired recently he bought himself a Corvette. Huge difference between a V6 Camaro and a Corvette, but not in his mind. I guess when you get older, raw V8 horsepower is not as important as style and comfort.
Assuming Guy is correct and we're really looking at sometime in April 2008 for a launch, I'm guessing it'll be tagged a 2009 Camaro. (Heck its only February and they're already selling 2007 Tahoes and Suburbans.) By then I'd imagine the LS2 will be history and we'll be seeing other options in the powertrain category. (Heck who knows, perhaps they're considering a hybrid version. )
For one, my search starts and ends with Chevrolet. I won't even consider another brand.
Secondly, I fully intend to purchase the top end Camaro, therefore I'm hoping for an LS9 and would never consider a "base" V8. If no LS9, whatever the most powerful motor available is.
However some people just want a Camaro and are less passionate about what lurks under the hood. A friend of mine is a long time Camaro/Corvette enthusiast. We often talk cars and he used to have a 67 SS. The 4th gen Camaro he purchased was a V6. He could have afforded a V8 but he and his wife liked the particular shade of blue it came in. When he retired recently he bought himself a Corvette. Huge difference between a V6 Camaro and a Corvette, but not in his mind. I guess when you get older, raw V8 horsepower is not as important as style and comfort.
Assuming Guy is correct and we're really looking at sometime in April 2008 for a launch, I'm guessing it'll be tagged a 2009 Camaro. (Heck its only February and they're already selling 2007 Tahoes and Suburbans.) By then I'd imagine the LS2 will be history and we'll be seeing other options in the powertrain category. (Heck who knows, perhaps they're considering a hybrid version.
)I want a V8 and I don't wanna trash my bank account for it.
Why do I want a base V8?
Simple- Torque and sound. You CAN'T get a V6 to sound like a V8 whether it has 200hp or 800hp. I want something with the V8 "rip the *** of your pants" feel and "everyone hide cause the car will eat you" sound.
If GM doesn't offer it at a base price, then I'll have to hold out and buy a used V8 model when the price drops (or a used C6 depending on how low it'll be by then). I'm a college student, I pay my own tuition, I pay rent for my apt, I pay for insurance, and I have a social life. I still somehow find enough spare change to save in the bank, but if I have to dish out $28K+ for a new V8 model, I'll just hold out.
Forget the V6, for me thats not even an option, I'd rather own a V8 Mustang than any american V6 (other than a GNX).
02-16-2006, 02:22 PM
#66
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by LXDTS
american V6 (other than a GNX).
Scott, why does GM let the media do that? Some guy would read that and believe it. It could kill alot of sales because people think "**** that... I'm not waiting that long".
02-16-2006, 02:32 PM
#67
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by LXDTS
You CAN'T get a V6 to sound like a V8 whether it has 200hp or 800hp.
02-16-2006, 02:39 PM
#68
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by jg95z28
doesn't Flowmaster make a muffler for the 4th gen V6 Camaro that's supposed to make it sound like a big block V8?
02-16-2006, 02:54 PM
#69
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by jg95z28
Different topic, but doesn't Flowmaster make a muffler for the 4th gen V6 Camaro that's supposed to make it sound like a big block V8?
02-16-2006, 02:57 PM
#70
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by guionM
The whole proposal (including powertrains) is complete. There are some fine tuning of figures going on, but powertrain isn't one of them.
Powertrain decisions have to be made fairly early for CAFE impact on the company, certification schedules and report to the Feds on CAFE projections (typically 2 years out). The Feds keep this info in confidence, and even if a vehicle is simply a non finalized proposal, that info and a report of compliance goes to the Government. Someone with more detail can elaborate more.
Also, it's important to have drivetrain chosen early because as part of a vehicles approval process is to have a report on how it's components are going to impact the rest of the company. Say GM's plant is capable of making 100K of engine "X". If you are going to add a vehicle that's expected to sell 75K more of engine "X", the investment in the engine plant to up production is going to have to be done, components of engine "X" is going to have to be sourced out, suppliers to the plant making engine "X" have to make changes to up production, and so on. If an engine or tranny isn't going to be possible due to budget, or if a company decides to use an engine from a line that has more capacity, they will need to chose that engine instead.
That doesn't even include the engineering needed for that particular engine top be installed in the car (more horses mean more heat... more heat means more cooling... more cooling means bigger system.... bigger sistem means a structure that can handle airflow... etc...)
As a result, engine decisions tend to be made and factored in well before any presentation is made.
I defer to our resident experts or Camaro guy on details on picking what engines are going to be used, but rule out the LS7. Simply look at the facility it's made at, look at the cost to manufacture, and decide does the capacity exist to fill the Camaro volume and is it cost effective.
But remember, the LS1's replacement (the LS2) puts out LS6 power for less money, and that a engine facility that produces a million engines of a particular displacement for a truck line can easily incorperate pistons, heads, etc into engines they are already making with minimal changes for a top level passenger car powerplant.
PS: As for the V6 and base V8 having the similar horsepower, you guys are missing out on one key item...... the V8 has more TORQUE..... and more marketing magic. The V8 is going to be quite a bit quicker. I'd expect the top V8 to be in a higher priced model.
Powertrain decisions have to be made fairly early for CAFE impact on the company, certification schedules and report to the Feds on CAFE projections (typically 2 years out). The Feds keep this info in confidence, and even if a vehicle is simply a non finalized proposal, that info and a report of compliance goes to the Government. Someone with more detail can elaborate more.
Also, it's important to have drivetrain chosen early because as part of a vehicles approval process is to have a report on how it's components are going to impact the rest of the company. Say GM's plant is capable of making 100K of engine "X". If you are going to add a vehicle that's expected to sell 75K more of engine "X", the investment in the engine plant to up production is going to have to be done, components of engine "X" is going to have to be sourced out, suppliers to the plant making engine "X" have to make changes to up production, and so on. If an engine or tranny isn't going to be possible due to budget, or if a company decides to use an engine from a line that has more capacity, they will need to chose that engine instead.
That doesn't even include the engineering needed for that particular engine top be installed in the car (more horses mean more heat... more heat means more cooling... more cooling means bigger system.... bigger sistem means a structure that can handle airflow... etc...)
As a result, engine decisions tend to be made and factored in well before any presentation is made.
I defer to our resident experts or Camaro guy on details on picking what engines are going to be used, but rule out the LS7. Simply look at the facility it's made at, look at the cost to manufacture, and decide does the capacity exist to fill the Camaro volume and is it cost effective.
But remember, the LS1's replacement (the LS2) puts out LS6 power for less money, and that a engine facility that produces a million engines of a particular displacement for a truck line can easily incorperate pistons, heads, etc into engines they are already making with minimal changes for a top level passenger car powerplant.
PS: As for the V6 and base V8 having the similar horsepower, you guys are missing out on one key item...... the V8 has more TORQUE..... and more marketing magic. The V8 is going to be quite a bit quicker. I'd expect the top V8 to be in a higher priced model.
LS7 tech is alredy trickling down and being used in truck parts....specifically the head tech. Even though we wont see the ls7 in the camaro, I have no doubt we will see parts derived from what they have learned with it.
02-16-2006, 02:59 PM
#71
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
I'm serious. I read about it in either Hot Rod or Car Craft a while back. I'm not sure if it was referring to the 80 Series catback for the 3.8L V6, or a specific special muffler.
02-16-2006, 03:05 PM
#72
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Just a thought on the V6 & V8 matter. I have a 95 Firebird Convertible
with a 3.4 V6 in it. My wife just bought a 2006 Dodge Caravan with a 3.3 V6.
Her mini van has more horses than my bird. While I can take her on a road course straight out she would win. That is how much technology has changed in the last ten years. Yes my car is a great cruiser but personally I would rather have a base V8 with 325 HP so I do not have to worry about some young punk thinking he is cool when he races ahead of me on a green light in his Dodge Neon or whatever. Chevy has to make the Base V6 or V8 hold it's own on the street. Make the base V6 standard and for say $200 you can upgrade 40 or 50 HP to a V8. I personally am going to buy a new Camaro Convertible with a base V8 and do not want to pay more than $28K for it. It should be priced inline with the Gt Vert Mustang and have slightly more HP.
My 2 cents!
with a 3.4 V6 in it. My wife just bought a 2006 Dodge Caravan with a 3.3 V6.
Her mini van has more horses than my bird. While I can take her on a road course straight out she would win. That is how much technology has changed in the last ten years. Yes my car is a great cruiser but personally I would rather have a base V8 with 325 HP so I do not have to worry about some young punk thinking he is cool when he races ahead of me on a green light in his Dodge Neon or whatever. Chevy has to make the Base V6 or V8 hold it's own on the street. Make the base V6 standard and for say $200 you can upgrade 40 or 50 HP to a V8. I personally am going to buy a new Camaro Convertible with a base V8 and do not want to pay more than $28K for it. It should be priced inline with the Gt Vert Mustang and have slightly more HP.
My 2 cents!
02-16-2006, 03:43 PM
#73
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by Fbodfather
Don't believe most of what you read in print in the media..........
trust me on this................
edit:
They don't even have the powertrains right...........
trust me on this................
edit:
They don't even have the powertrains right...........
We can't believe the media and we can't decide which "insider" here has the real scoop, so should we just "keep the faith" and it will happen when it happens?
Looks like its curtain number 3 again, Monty.
Bob
02-16-2006, 03:49 PM
#74
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Originally Posted by CamaroFan1718
Wow, um no maybe a honda but yea. The best exhaust for a v6 is the TSP 3" rumbler cat-back.....anyways back on topic.
At idle pretty much all of them sound pretty mean, and pretty much all of them sound like crap by the time you get to 3-4000RPM. Regarding the Flowmaster, they have a V6 specific kit that features a resonator in front of the muffler that takes out some of the V6-iness, but it will never sound like a V8 because it does not have two cylinders firing on the same bank ever.
Back to the matter at hand, Guy makes a good point about the V8 making more torque (since it probably has more displacement), but the average person thinks you only need torque to tow a boat.
02-16-2006, 05:12 PM
#75
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Re: Edmunds says no Camaro until 2010MY, according to suppliers
Im agreeing with Jason E and the guys. I think a V6 is necessary, but a good modestly powered V8 in between would be a great idea again.
Nah. I have the Flowmaster system that uses the 80 series muffler with a resonator. It doesnt have the rice-a-rific sound ive heard on other v6 cars but it doesnt give off a v8 sound either. It does sound pretty mean tho up to 3500rpm but after that, theres no doubt its hooked to a v6 All in all, its not a bad system for the price. Ive heard a Borla system on some 3800s and they sound really good but they also cost the most
Originally Posted by jg95z28
I'm serious. I read about it in either Hot Rod or Car Craft a while back. I'm not sure if it was referring to the 80 Series catback for the 3.8L V6, or a specific special muffler.
All in all, its not a bad system for the price. Ive heard a Borla system on some 3800s and they sound really good but they also cost the most