CHP isn't likely to buy the next B4C Camaro.. and it's GM's own fault! (mini rant)
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 145
From: arizona
I don't really get this. My family had a 96', with t-tops, and it never rattled. I think there was an issue with the driver's window motor, but that's about the only problem with the car. That was a stiff platform.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
I just happen to be looking over the CHP website and for a car claimed here to be subpar and not worthly of being a CHP patrol vehicle they do get their PR dollars out of them with quite a few pictures. One actually doing a burnout.
Last edited by 99SilverSS; Jan 21, 2008 at 11:14 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
This whole debate about whether CHP will grace the world with another GM passenger car police cruiser, is just plain silly. Who cares, really? If the idea is they are some kind of harbinger of upcoming quality - that's garbage. GM's got the data now to prove, they are putting out world-class quality. Oshawa for example, has won awards in recent years, even putting Toyota plants to shame. BTW where's those TOYOTA Camry police cars? Maybe CHP will get some FJ Cruisers for their black&whites (hmm, no. Cracking structure in the front end). Or maybe some new Tundra pickups (hmm, no. Cracking structures if you stand on the cheapo tailgate, plus glass transmissions to boot). What's a fleet buyer to do?
Originally Posted by guionM
As much as I am down on GM for KNOWINGLY letting some of the crappy things on the 4th gen continue unimproved, you simply can not let judge what the 5th gen will be like by using the 4th gen as a measuring stick.
The only way we'll be able to tell what the 5th gen's issues are (or aren't) is time on the market, time in customer's hands, and look for common problems that keep cropping up.
The only way we'll be able to tell what the 5th gen's issues are (or aren't) is time on the market, time in customer's hands, and look for common problems that keep cropping up.
Last edited by BigDarknFast; Jan 21, 2008 at 11:06 AM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
They hated the Dodge Diplomats because they were sluggish.
They loved the LT1 Caprices. They were fast & comfortable (though not quite as comfortable as Crown Vics). They were less thrilled with the pre-LT1 Caprices.
They like the Crown Vics because they are very comfortable for long patrols, but they would perfer more power and the CV didn't seem as stable at high speed manuvering as the Caprices.
The 5.0 SSP Mustang were highly praised, fast & extraordinarily cheap to maintain, and great PR cars. But were also regarded as "squrrelly" at very high speed and needed front rotors replaced frequently.
And Camaros are good PR cars (as you just proved) however they don't hold up very well.
All are very honest assesments.
You aren't going to find that on a CHP website no more than you are going to find opinions on how particular brands of cars used by law enforcement hold up on any other website sponsored by any local, state, or federal agency.
Last edited by guionM; Jan 21, 2008 at 12:33 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
CHP doesn't do public endorsements or humiliations. However, general opinions do come out on various cars. Sometimes, it makes it's way to the public via car mags (ie: Dodge Diplomats were called "Dog Cars", early last gen Caprices were called "Shamu").
They hated the Dodge Diplomats because they were sluggish.
They loved the LT1 Caprices. They were fast & comfortable (though not quite as comfortable as Crown Vics). They were less thrilled with the pre-LT1 Caprices.
They like the Crown Vics because they are very comfortable for long patrols, but they would perfer more power and the CV didn't seem as stable at high speed manuvering as the Caprices.
The 5.0 SSP Mustang were highly praised, fast & extraordinarily cheap to maintain, and great PR cars. But were also regarded as "squrrelly" at very high speed and needed front rotors replaced frequently.
And Camaros are good PR cars (as you just proved) however they don't hold up very well.
All are very honest assesments.
You aren't going to find that on a CHP website no more than you are going to find opinions on how particular brands of cars used by law enforcement hold up on any other website sponsored by any local, state, or federal agency.
They hated the Dodge Diplomats because they were sluggish.
They loved the LT1 Caprices. They were fast & comfortable (though not quite as comfortable as Crown Vics). They were less thrilled with the pre-LT1 Caprices.
They like the Crown Vics because they are very comfortable for long patrols, but they would perfer more power and the CV didn't seem as stable at high speed manuvering as the Caprices.
The 5.0 SSP Mustang were highly praised, fast & extraordinarily cheap to maintain, and great PR cars. But were also regarded as "squrrelly" at very high speed and needed front rotors replaced frequently.
And Camaros are good PR cars (as you just proved) however they don't hold up very well.
All are very honest assesments.
You aren't going to find that on a CHP website no more than you are going to find opinions on how particular brands of cars used by law enforcement hold up on any other website sponsored by any local, state, or federal agency.
To me the whole point of this thread is to show that there were some quality and mabe some design issues with the 4th Gen Camaros. We all know the issues and as Scott has pointed out GM knew very well also. In my mind I see GM treating the Camaro different this time than how it was done for the 4th Gen. It's less of a shared car and little brother to the Vette and more it's own vehicle. That's not to say there will be no corner cutting as I'm sure there will but I feel that GM is a different now than in the late '80s when the 4th gen was developed. I also see that GM knows the value of having a strong brand like the Camaro and its power in pop culture and GM's overall image. To me this is the kind of treatment the car should have kept even after Gen 1 and 2.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,977
From: SeVa
[QUOTE=guionM;5126842]The 5.0 SSP Mustang were highly praised, fast & extraordinarily cheap to maintain, and great PR cars. But were also regarded as "squrrelly" at very high speed and needed front rotors replaced frequently.[\QUOTE]
What is it with Mustangs and rotors? I had to replace the rotors on my 91 LX after some "spirited" braking - calipers rocked on the rotors as far as I could tell along with rotors warping and creating burn spots at regular intervals along the rotor. Gotta replace the rotors on my 07 at 30k due to some "spirited" braking. Caliper shake wasn't evident but they've warped and are a bit dark w/bluish tint in color.
Anyways, I'm gunning for a brake upgrade this spring, hopefully I wont have the same problems afterward.
What is it with Mustangs and rotors? I had to replace the rotors on my 91 LX after some "spirited" braking - calipers rocked on the rotors as far as I could tell along with rotors warping and creating burn spots at regular intervals along the rotor. Gotta replace the rotors on my 07 at 30k due to some "spirited" braking. Caliper shake wasn't evident but they've warped and are a bit dark w/bluish tint in color.
Anyways, I'm gunning for a brake upgrade this spring, hopefully I wont have the same problems afterward.
Registered User
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 61
From: chas., s.c. U.S.A.
In the 80s and early '90s the Mustangs and 3rd gen Camaros raced against each other in IMSA Showroom Stock racing in The Firestone Firehawk Challenge.
The Mustangs weren't even in the same league. They accelerated harder but the Camaros 4 wheel disc brakes and much better chassis allowed them to win races right and left.
The CHP Mustangs were pretty reliable but does anybody remember the first couple of years they were out, the floorpans cracked?
The Mustangs weren't even in the same league. They accelerated harder but the Camaros 4 wheel disc brakes and much better chassis allowed them to win races right and left.
The CHP Mustangs were pretty reliable but does anybody remember the first couple of years they were out, the floorpans cracked?
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,977
From: SeVa
If it was a foxbody, it wasn't just the first coupla years 79-93 cars are all subject to that. The cars can also shrink under heavy breaking, the SN95 and New Edge cars were 40% stiffer than the Fox and the S197 is 100% stiffer than the SN95/New Edge cars. Even better, the crapola 4-link of the Fox/SN95/New Edge was replaced with a nice 3-link in the S197.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
I think it's even more likely that some departments will give the G8 a shot.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 954
From: Shelton, WA
Please don't bite my head off for saying this, because I know alot of you don't want to hear it. But GM is in tough times as a whole right now because the issues you all have described on your 3rd and 4th gen Camaros are all similar and related to every car GM has been building for the last 30 years, in every division. And people who got fed up with burned out power window motors and failing alternators and cracked interior pannels (that's a big one - nearly every GM car from the late 70's on through today has some form of cracked interior plastics after 100k miles) not only vacated GM, but they jumped ship to Japan with Honda and Toyota. Say what you want about blandly styled soft riding rinky-dink 4 cylinder appliances, they don't break.
Many of you have an allegience to GM and your Camaros which will never change, no matter how poorly the car is built. But your opinions are becoming fewer and fewer, as is reflected in the fact Toyota is building cars at a feverish pace and still can't keep up with demand while GM has their cars sitting on lots collecting dust.
GM has been forced to look at how well their cars hold up over time. I don't know if their 5yr/100k mile drivetrain warranty is the answer, but I do think they now understand people take that 30 grand of their hard earned money they just plunked down on a new car alot more seriously than they used to. And it is no longer an issue of whether the car is made in America or if it is whether the profits go to an American corporation. They want long term reliable transporation, a car that spends most of it's existance on the road and not in the garage. Japan has provided that much more than America.
I have faith that the next Camaro will be a much better product than any previous Camaro. Not only in interior fit and finish but in drivetrain and electrical reliability. If not, GM could find themselves in a seriously challenging predicament. Making their current situation seem almost blasse.
In other words, GM's future rides on the reputation of the 5th gen Camaro.
Many of you have an allegience to GM and your Camaros which will never change, no matter how poorly the car is built. But your opinions are becoming fewer and fewer, as is reflected in the fact Toyota is building cars at a feverish pace and still can't keep up with demand while GM has their cars sitting on lots collecting dust.
GM has been forced to look at how well their cars hold up over time. I don't know if their 5yr/100k mile drivetrain warranty is the answer, but I do think they now understand people take that 30 grand of their hard earned money they just plunked down on a new car alot more seriously than they used to. And it is no longer an issue of whether the car is made in America or if it is whether the profits go to an American corporation. They want long term reliable transporation, a car that spends most of it's existance on the road and not in the garage. Japan has provided that much more than America.
I have faith that the next Camaro will be a much better product than any previous Camaro. Not only in interior fit and finish but in drivetrain and electrical reliability. If not, GM could find themselves in a seriously challenging predicament. Making their current situation seem almost blasse.
In other words, GM's future rides on the reputation of the 5th gen Camaro.
Hallelujah, finally someone who understands!
Last edited by onebadponcho; Apr 7, 2008 at 12:48 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
From: Cleveland, OH
Holy ancient thread revival Batman!!!! 
Now that I've seen and heard about much more of the Camaro since that post, I have faith the car will not let us down. GM as a whole has been building better and better cars for the last couple of years. If the attention to detail on my Mom's 2007 Lucerne is any indication of where GM is headed, the Camaro should be a knockout.
Now that I've seen and heard about much more of the Camaro since that post, I have faith the car will not let us down. GM as a whole has been building better and better cars for the last couple of years. If the attention to detail on my Mom's 2007 Lucerne is any indication of where GM is headed, the Camaro should be a knockout.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 59
From: colorado
I have had no issues with my 99ss I had to replace brakes at 75k and just did the clutch today at 112k so Im very happy. no engine noise and I drove it hard went through a set a tires a year. Maybe i'm just lucky and got a good one.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 362
This post is for the people at GM that are responsible for the Camaro in general, but all law enforcement vehicle marketing in particular.
This post is also for those who want to see the next Camaro be the best it can be.
This post is not for GM or Camaro lapdogs.
If you have owned nothing but GM vehicles, dream of nothing but GM vehicles, and are the type of person who if GM balled up a wad of aluminium foil and stuck an engine in it, you'd still be convinced it's better than anything Ford or Chrysler can make, this post isn't for you, and turning defensive isn't going to do a thing to improve the car, and help it to live to the 6th gen.
I want to make a few things clear before I start.
First,
Police vehicles DO NOT NEED TO BE THE FASTEST ON THE ROAD. I want to emphasize this for the "engine-in-a-box" guys before they surface.
Second
Police vehicle DO have to be dependable, durable, and very cheap to repair. Most law enforcement agencies have extremely tight budgets. Although, some agencies like the California Highway Patrol tend to sell their vehicles once the extended warranty is over (100,000 miles), they still have plenty of parts that aren't covered, run them over that (my car had 108K when I bought it), and like a passenger jet, time in the shop for repairs essentially costs them money since the car's not usable.
Third,
Despite a car's "racing" reputation, running hours on end in California desert heat (including idling), running frequent ***** to the wall acceleration from a dead stop (on many highways here, the CHP focuses on speeders doing over 88 & 90 mph, and they are big on take down times), hard core U-turns, highway crossings, off-ramp/freeeway bridge-crossing/on ramp/ and catch the speeder who went the other way doing 100 all tend to separate the cars that live up to any reputation to those that can't take it.
That established, here the situation,
I've had a long standing connection with people in the California Highway Patrol that dates back to the days when I bought Special Service Mustangs from them and sold them at a modest markup (but cheaper than what everyone else was asking in the Autotrader) and used the profits to finance the upgrades to my own SS Mustang, and later my 1st Thunderbird SC.
Over a year and a half ago, I visited the place for the 1st time in years and there happened to be a B4C Camaro with new brakes, transmission, rear end, bushings, and a few other items for sale. Checked with the guy I knew inside and when I found the car had been assigned to a single officer and had been involved in a shootout (they had the news article & the car still had a bullet hole) I bought it on the spot, despite already having a '97 Z28 and 2 Thunderbirds. This was also one of the 1st B4C Camaros turned in from the field, so there was still the "wow" factor to them (CHP bought 102 in early 2002... the only batch they ever bought).
Today, I went to talk to my buddy at the transportation facility in Sacremento, responsible for recieving & preparing, repairing, and then decomissioning, and final disposal of all California Highway Patrol vehicles in the Northern half of California. A friend of mine was intrested in a CHP B4C Camaro also, so since I was going up there anyway, I wanted to check on them.
The opinion of the Camaro B4C is far different today than it was when I bought mine. And that opinion isn't positive.
The CHP Camaros have had repeated transmission failures. Every single Camaro that went through the Northeren office had at least one of it's power window motors fail, and many have gone through 2 motors ( in all fairness, I didn't ask if it was each side, or the same window motor twice).
The Camaros also have had numerous rear end failures. He mentions that with only a couple of exceptions, the engines all make noise. He also advised me to tell my friend he doesn't want the ones they are getting rid of.
I listened to every item they mentioned.
They match everything that was replaced in my B4C before I bought it.
Currently, both of my power window motors have failed. I've frequently called my B4C a Diesel Camaro because of the clatter it makes till it actually gets warmed up. According to the CHP guys, it gets worse as it ages.
The CHP typically does repairs on the cars they sell to the public. However, the Camaros that have been coming through, according to them, as a group are so far gone that it's far more economical for the state to send them straight to private auction and let them dispose of the cars.
The guy there was still on the lookout for a decent one coming through decomission to turn over to the academy next door.
A conversation I had with another person up there echoed the problems with the Camaros. In this instance, the conversation drifted to the Fox Mustangs they used to use, and the small amount of Camaros the CHP used in the late 70s and early 80s.
His view is that Ford started out with a durable engine and tranny, & actually took the time and effort on their police packages. Items he noted were special hoses & clamps, heavy duty alternators that lasted forever, and during the last few years, external engine oil coolers.
Meanwhile, their view is that GM's B4C Camaros were basically plucked off the aseembly line and thrown out there, and any weakness the car already had was exasperated in heavy use.
Neither were impressed with the Camaro. Both were less than enthusiastic about buying a future GM product, especially another Camaro.
I've owned 3 4th gen Camaros, and although I'm impressed with the speed and the handling, as a group and excluding acceleration and roadholding, they aren't very good cars.
Of 3 Camaros:
* All had power window failures. 2 of them multiple times.
* The '93 & '97 Z28 had fuel guages that went from 1/4 tank to fuel out seemingly within a gallon.
* The 93Z (automatic) and my current B4C (automatic) had their trannys replaced before I got them. The B around 75K, the '93 around 100K.
* My '97 Z28 (bought almost new) 6 speed manual went through 3 clutches within 140K miles. My 80s era Mustang (abused by the CHP before I bought it) had 2 changes in 225,000 miles. One by the CHP, and one when I had the tranny rebuilt at 190K miles. Don't get me started on my SCs. I've NEVER had to replace a clutch!
*My '97 made rear end noises just before I sold it. My '93 had it's rearend replaced before I bought it (120K miles). Again, the rear end in my '85 5.0 Mustang was never replaced. Again, over 220K miles. No noises when I sold it.
What makes this whole thing even more maddening is that these things happen so frequently, General Motors could only puropsely ignore them, and quite bluntly was derilict in fixing these issues. The 4th gen was in production for 10 seasons. The only reason I can come up with for not fixing these issues is the belief that GM viewed Camaro buyers as enthusiastic lapdogs who instead of making an issue over these things would simply cough up the money to go to a GM dealer & buy parts from GM to fix them. No other reason makes a thread of sense.
Getting to the point to this whole post, I get a feeling GM is focusing on things such as interior quality, feel of materials, tight gaps between panels, and tightness of switchgears. But may be missing the parts that are going to make the car legendary.... it's ability to handle extreme use. It's ability to hold up beyond the warranty period. It's this ability that made me a Ford guy for many years, and sold my sister on the idea of getting a Mustang (which Ford promtly blew when they started pinching pennys and cutting costs in the mid 90s). My dad considered getting his 1st Ford truck in nearly 20 years because of how my Stang held up (he was absolutely blown away on how many relatively trouble free miles I raked up especially when I went over 200K.... and he advised me against getting a police car!
). I don't know how many people I've sold on Fords and Mustangs with that car.... I had it for 11 years!
This is what's going to sell cars once the enthusiast have all bought up their share. People are going to see that these cars hold up, stay solid, stay trouble free, and start thinking "I know so-and-so is hard on cars, but his car is holding up. It must be a good car!".
I'm looking forward to Mustang & Camaro competition again (Challenger will be in a league of it's own). As is the case with all good competition, you want both parties to seriously compete against each other, and you want good strong cars on each side. The excitement spreads to the rest of the line in each camp, and I'm pretty sure at least some of the public that has had it's share of bland Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas, will get caught up in this as well.
This post is also for those who want to see the next Camaro be the best it can be.
This post is not for GM or Camaro lapdogs.
If you have owned nothing but GM vehicles, dream of nothing but GM vehicles, and are the type of person who if GM balled up a wad of aluminium foil and stuck an engine in it, you'd still be convinced it's better than anything Ford or Chrysler can make, this post isn't for you, and turning defensive isn't going to do a thing to improve the car, and help it to live to the 6th gen.
I want to make a few things clear before I start.
First,
Police vehicles DO NOT NEED TO BE THE FASTEST ON THE ROAD. I want to emphasize this for the "engine-in-a-box" guys before they surface.
Second
Police vehicle DO have to be dependable, durable, and very cheap to repair. Most law enforcement agencies have extremely tight budgets. Although, some agencies like the California Highway Patrol tend to sell their vehicles once the extended warranty is over (100,000 miles), they still have plenty of parts that aren't covered, run them over that (my car had 108K when I bought it), and like a passenger jet, time in the shop for repairs essentially costs them money since the car's not usable.
Third,
Despite a car's "racing" reputation, running hours on end in California desert heat (including idling), running frequent ***** to the wall acceleration from a dead stop (on many highways here, the CHP focuses on speeders doing over 88 & 90 mph, and they are big on take down times), hard core U-turns, highway crossings, off-ramp/freeeway bridge-crossing/on ramp/ and catch the speeder who went the other way doing 100 all tend to separate the cars that live up to any reputation to those that can't take it.
That established, here the situation,
I've had a long standing connection with people in the California Highway Patrol that dates back to the days when I bought Special Service Mustangs from them and sold them at a modest markup (but cheaper than what everyone else was asking in the Autotrader) and used the profits to finance the upgrades to my own SS Mustang, and later my 1st Thunderbird SC.
Over a year and a half ago, I visited the place for the 1st time in years and there happened to be a B4C Camaro with new brakes, transmission, rear end, bushings, and a few other items for sale. Checked with the guy I knew inside and when I found the car had been assigned to a single officer and had been involved in a shootout (they had the news article & the car still had a bullet hole) I bought it on the spot, despite already having a '97 Z28 and 2 Thunderbirds. This was also one of the 1st B4C Camaros turned in from the field, so there was still the "wow" factor to them (CHP bought 102 in early 2002... the only batch they ever bought).
Today, I went to talk to my buddy at the transportation facility in Sacremento, responsible for recieving & preparing, repairing, and then decomissioning, and final disposal of all California Highway Patrol vehicles in the Northern half of California. A friend of mine was intrested in a CHP B4C Camaro also, so since I was going up there anyway, I wanted to check on them.
The opinion of the Camaro B4C is far different today than it was when I bought mine. And that opinion isn't positive.
The CHP Camaros have had repeated transmission failures. Every single Camaro that went through the Northeren office had at least one of it's power window motors fail, and many have gone through 2 motors ( in all fairness, I didn't ask if it was each side, or the same window motor twice).
The Camaros also have had numerous rear end failures. He mentions that with only a couple of exceptions, the engines all make noise. He also advised me to tell my friend he doesn't want the ones they are getting rid of.
I listened to every item they mentioned.
They match everything that was replaced in my B4C before I bought it.
Currently, both of my power window motors have failed. I've frequently called my B4C a Diesel Camaro because of the clatter it makes till it actually gets warmed up. According to the CHP guys, it gets worse as it ages.
The CHP typically does repairs on the cars they sell to the public. However, the Camaros that have been coming through, according to them, as a group are so far gone that it's far more economical for the state to send them straight to private auction and let them dispose of the cars.
The guy there was still on the lookout for a decent one coming through decomission to turn over to the academy next door.
A conversation I had with another person up there echoed the problems with the Camaros. In this instance, the conversation drifted to the Fox Mustangs they used to use, and the small amount of Camaros the CHP used in the late 70s and early 80s.
His view is that Ford started out with a durable engine and tranny, & actually took the time and effort on their police packages. Items he noted were special hoses & clamps, heavy duty alternators that lasted forever, and during the last few years, external engine oil coolers.
Meanwhile, their view is that GM's B4C Camaros were basically plucked off the aseembly line and thrown out there, and any weakness the car already had was exasperated in heavy use.
Neither were impressed with the Camaro. Both were less than enthusiastic about buying a future GM product, especially another Camaro.
I've owned 3 4th gen Camaros, and although I'm impressed with the speed and the handling, as a group and excluding acceleration and roadholding, they aren't very good cars.
Of 3 Camaros:
* All had power window failures. 2 of them multiple times.
* The '93 & '97 Z28 had fuel guages that went from 1/4 tank to fuel out seemingly within a gallon.
* The 93Z (automatic) and my current B4C (automatic) had their trannys replaced before I got them. The B around 75K, the '93 around 100K.
* My '97 Z28 (bought almost new) 6 speed manual went through 3 clutches within 140K miles. My 80s era Mustang (abused by the CHP before I bought it) had 2 changes in 225,000 miles. One by the CHP, and one when I had the tranny rebuilt at 190K miles. Don't get me started on my SCs. I've NEVER had to replace a clutch!
*My '97 made rear end noises just before I sold it. My '93 had it's rearend replaced before I bought it (120K miles). Again, the rear end in my '85 5.0 Mustang was never replaced. Again, over 220K miles. No noises when I sold it.
What makes this whole thing even more maddening is that these things happen so frequently, General Motors could only puropsely ignore them, and quite bluntly was derilict in fixing these issues. The 4th gen was in production for 10 seasons. The only reason I can come up with for not fixing these issues is the belief that GM viewed Camaro buyers as enthusiastic lapdogs who instead of making an issue over these things would simply cough up the money to go to a GM dealer & buy parts from GM to fix them. No other reason makes a thread of sense.
Getting to the point to this whole post, I get a feeling GM is focusing on things such as interior quality, feel of materials, tight gaps between panels, and tightness of switchgears. But may be missing the parts that are going to make the car legendary.... it's ability to handle extreme use. It's ability to hold up beyond the warranty period. It's this ability that made me a Ford guy for many years, and sold my sister on the idea of getting a Mustang (which Ford promtly blew when they started pinching pennys and cutting costs in the mid 90s). My dad considered getting his 1st Ford truck in nearly 20 years because of how my Stang held up (he was absolutely blown away on how many relatively trouble free miles I raked up especially when I went over 200K.... and he advised me against getting a police car!
). I don't know how many people I've sold on Fords and Mustangs with that car.... I had it for 11 years!This is what's going to sell cars once the enthusiast have all bought up their share. People are going to see that these cars hold up, stay solid, stay trouble free, and start thinking "I know so-and-so is hard on cars, but his car is holding up. It must be a good car!".
I'm looking forward to Mustang & Camaro competition again (Challenger will be in a league of it's own). As is the case with all good competition, you want both parties to seriously compete against each other, and you want good strong cars on each side. The excitement spreads to the rest of the line in each camp, and I'm pretty sure at least some of the public that has had it's share of bland Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas, will get caught up in this as well.
is not news. Why not at least wait until the car has time to prove itself before going on a tirade.