3SuperSports

This is why I'm no longer "brand loyal". I know everybody makes mistakes from time to time but, it's how they deal with them that counts. Try to sweep them under the rug and charge the customer huge $$ to fix the problems, and you've made an even bigger mistake.

UHP-CAMARO

On the 2002 Black and White CHP Camaros the side mirrors are painted Black. The Black mirrors look better than the White Mirrors on the 1992 CHP Black and White Camaros. The CHP had 16 of them if I remember correctly.

For sure the LED Bars are very stealthy and put out a lot more light than the Strobe and Halagon lamps.

30thZ286speed

And LEDs should last a lot longer, the cost of replacement strobes can be high, and they seem to burn out a lot. LEDs don't require a power pack like most strobes do, so installation and wiring is much simpler.

1992CHPB4C

Incorrect, CHP used 21 1992 L98 350 B4C's. I have unit E892922. Anyway, you say Ford did their homework on the SSP. Well could you imagine what Ford would have done if they sold more Automatic SSP's than 5spds. No one would have bought them again. Yes, the 5.0 is pretty reliable but they didnt really do anything special to them. Yes they rivited plates on the floor boards for fat cops(weak floorboards to begin with). Yes they had silicon hoses(are they really needed, I have originals on both my B4C's). The only thing ever beefed up for a B4C would have been the 1992 with the 1LE Corvette front brakes.

Not so, that was the link in those too. I bought several from the city of San Antonio back in 1994 and 1995 w/ 60,000 miles and they had already had the transmission replaced. All depends on how they were driven. Now, every B4C that I have checked from the CHP through my local dealer to see what has been done under warrenty, none have had transmissions replaced. Rearends, yes, but not trannys. In 2002 they used torque management, which in my belief is helping the tranny to last longer. Now, if you have a careless cop who slams it into reverse, then drive after backing up, well, that will strip sunshells in any tranny. I recently had a 2002 B4C from Colorado with its original trans and ran 13.20's @ 104. Pretty good for a weak transmission.

Your posts seem to down the B4C for not being a purpose built engineered police car. There never has been. You say the 9C1, but it is no different except for silicon hoses and an oil cooler. No great show stoppers built in there. Hell, if Ford really did their homework, why on earth did they sell the Auto SSP and especially with a crappy little 5 cent plastic grommet that was guaranteed to fall out so you would loose you line pressure and fry your Auto SSP. The 4L60 and 4L60E are good transmissions.

You are correct that the rear ends leave something to be desired, but so did the gasket on the 9C1's that caused premature wear on the right axle shaft.

All in all, the LS1 is an awesome engine. Maybe noisy, but runs like the wind. The 9C1 was probably the best police vehicle in history between 1994 and 1996 hands down. Fast enough to where most agencies began ditching their SSP's early because of it. The SSP was also a great car. P71=joke!!

robb4964

Good post. Sorry to hear some of ya arent having good luck from your cars. But out of all the cars I have ever owned I can honestly say the most reliable car was a 95 Camaro z28.I have owned toyotas,hondas,fords, you name it.

The original clutch lasted 135k and the rear didnt make a sound when I swaped it out at 140,000. Out of all the years I had it the only problem I ever had was a water pump that had a minor leak. Of course brakes and tires but thats maint.

And for engines not lasting..I dont understand that one...??? Have not had one friend blow up an LT1/LS1 before 150k accept those who NOS the hell out of their cars. The Camaro made it to 210K before It went south and that was due to a oil pump that gave up. It ran perfect to that point.
I have owned 6 4th gens and never had an engine/transmission failure.

Got another friend with a 93 who just cammed the original engine at 205k and busted out a 12.7 on that tired old engine.

I do understand your concern for future build quality. The cracked doors alone where enough to anger me.

My97 has a Very loud rear end but no other noises. My 99 has cracked door panels and both of the window motors are done in . Other then those few things I have had very very good luck with my cars.

guionM

After checking, they did infact purchase a small batch of Camaros with an eye towards replacing the soon to be discontinued Mustang. The Camaros were less than satisfactory with cooling and tranny problems.

It wasn't till the final year of Camaro 10 years later that the California ordered a batch of 104 B4Cs, this time without the usual trial run (based instead on other agencies record) for "special" useage, mostly assigned to commercial truck enforcement and to the wide expanses of rural interstate where traffic routinely runs 80+ (mine was assigned full time to a officer near Stockton).


As for the SSP Mustang, beyond silicon hoses and reinforced floor boards:

* 2 piece calibrated Vascar speedometer cable
* Engine oil cooler
* Higher capacity, internally regulated and more durable 130 amp alternator.
* Semi metalic brake pads
* Trunk release relocated from glovebox to near steering wheel on dash
* Door light switch bypass (interior lights don't turn on when the door is opened)
* Single key locks (1 key opens everything)
* Full sized spare tire

And that's just off the top of my head and on top of such standard things as a cooling fan clutch, forged engine internals, a rear end that can pull a loaded truck, a clutch that takes gross willful acts to ruin, and carpet and seat material that actually seems to last as long as that on house funiture.



As for the 21 1992 Camaros the CHP bought, just to put that number in perspective the CHP bought just under 3000 Mustangs over 9 years. The 1st year they bought 400. If my memory serves correctly, they bought over 150 in '92. In 1993, they bought almost every SSP Mustang they could get the state to pay for.




Not the story from the Sacremento office.

Admittedly, I haven't talked to anyone down at Torrance. Also, the area of Northern California includes the large, flat, and pretty brutal oven called the central valley as well as the I-80 mountains, while the SoCal area is primarily south of Bakersfield so there might be a terrain difference. But it's a pretty long and unrealistic reach to say that the reason every B4C tranny out here doesn't hold up is because a careless cop slams the shifter in reverse. Especially after you just pointed out the tranny was a weak point in the 9C1.


Since I started this thread after visiting CHP transport in Sacremento, the post reflects what they have collectively told me. I OWN a 2002 B4C, so this thread isn't made to unfairly bash the car. These are guys who actually maintain the car in heavy usage. They have also maintained Ford Mustangs, Ford Crown Victorias, Chevrolet Caprices, and even Dodge Diplomats.

These guys (the older ones anyway) will tell you the Dodges were "dog cars" (could be outrun by a good Honda). They also love the Caprice. They point out that the interior didn't wear as well as Crown Vics, but it's performance and stability were light years better (they also point out trannies in the 9C1, but say it held up better than the 9C1s). Early 80s B4Cs used to eat their cams.

The early 90s B4C (basically nothing more than a Camaro RS with the 305 and automatics) had cooling issues in severe use in heat, and again, the tranny and rear end.... why only 21 were bought, and no more.

As for Mustangs, they freely critisize Mustangs warp-a-set-a-year front disc brakes which required more than just new rotors every time you chenged them. It wasn't till the final years Ford solved the problem about ruptured heater cores by putting a restrictor tube in them. The struts required frequent alignment to keep from wearing out the inside or outside of the front tires prematurely. At high speeds, the word my friend in the CHP used to describe the handling was "squrrelly". But the CHP loved them, and the warranty work to repair these items rarely had the cars down for more than a day.

Also, the CHP actually collaberated with Ford over the creation of the SSP, and was the 1st agency to buy them. You won't hear any badmouthing about the cars from anyone who was around when they were run (ditto the 9C1, in case anyone thinks there's any brand bias). Alot of the officers bought retired Mustangs off the lot just like the general public.

Talk aboutAs for Ford not doing their homework, same could be said about GM and the Camaro rear end..... and the fact that GM's transmissions were the weak point in the 9C1 and even older B4Cs. Or power window motors. All which have been known as weak points for years.


LS1 is awesome in that it makes great horsepower numbers, is compact, lightweight, and gets good fuel economy. But if it clacks like a box of rocks, when it starts up and sounds like a diesel most of the time, that ruins everything. To accept that as nothing is basically the same outlook that gave Japanese cars their image of being better and our cars as being inferior.

Regardless as to what causes the LS1 engine noise, carbon, cold parts, aluminum transmitting noise easier, underwear gnomes in the exhaust manifolds, it's something that makes the engine seem like junk. I ran my used SSP to over 200K miles.



Again, this isn't a "Bash Camaro" thread, and it's not a rant against GM for not building a "special" police car. I've owned 3 4th gens, and I current own a B4C.

But as you have also read, there are alot of people who have had the same issues with their cars as the CHP have had. These aren't issues where GM can say "OOOPS". These are things that GM has known about, and essentially said, "Why bother making it better?? That's what parts departments are for". Transmission issues have been around for years, as have the rear end issue. As have the power window motor issue. I'm sure the engine noise issue showed up in testing well before anyone signed off on it.

All these problems show up in civilian cars!

Yet, someone felt that marketing the exact same car to a market that will use the car in far more extreme conditions would be OK as well.

There are 2 enforcement agencies that are looked towards for opinions and input for the rest of the country (including Federal). The Michagan State Police's annual tests, and the California Highway Patrol on duty opinions.

It's not good to get areas of concern in either agency.

30thZ286speed

Yeah you can say that again, the one I drive the engine blew last week. Now I am in an even older POS pool car. Just a tick under 150K, it was strange I was sitting at a light and the car began to shake very violently, my first thought was maybe I got some bad gas. Then when the light turned green the car had nothing I floored it and it would barely move shaking and sputtering as I turned into a parking lot it quit and I coasted the rest of the way, afterward it wouldn't start. While waiting for the tow truck I got it started but now it was knocking horriblely on top of the really bad shaking at idle. The car didn't burn oil and oil levels are fine. I don't think there even going to have the car checked out, I think its going straight to the junk yard.

We have had some problems with newer 4.6s blowing spark plugs out, I thought maybe that is what happened and the noise I heard was the spark plug being knocked around, but I checked the coil packs and all of them were secure. I am trying to get them to check the car out, make sure it isn't something simple or costly.

1992CHPB4C

guionM, where on earth do you get your information from?? You are so misled on several issues.
False, they bought 73 of them.

You believe these to be engineering add ons to make it stronger???

Forged internals my ***. Seat material sucked like any other car. Sorry but it wasnt police spec material they used. By the way, 130 amp alternator wasnt an option until 1992.

I dont know who told you this, but you need to do your research. The 1991 & 1992 B4C were basically a performance axle package Z28 in RS badges. THey came 2 ways, 305 5spd w/ 230hp 330 ft lbs tq, and 350 auto w/ 245hp and 345 ft lbs torque. Also had the same liquid to liquid oil cooler that the Mustang could have had. Chevrolet made it standard on the B4C, it was an option on the SSP.

Have you heard of any engine failures in the field on these cars? Answer, NO, unless they have been off road and knocked a hole in the oil pan. Tranny failures, I have heard of very few. Now, lets look back in history in Tranny failures. #1 would be a Ford SSP mustang w/ auto. Ask any agency that used the Auto. Texas tried some in 1988 and told Ford never to sell them another. #2, I would say about 50% of the 9C1's that I have owned with mileages between 70-110k have had the tranny replaced. Camaro's I would imagine to be less due to being a lighter car.

I dont care who you have talked to at Motor Transport, the CHP did not like these cars from the get go. I talked to them as they received them in 2001 or 2002 and they were bitching because of the lack of room. It was doomed to be a hated car from the start. You seem to think that these problems only appear in civilian cars is what I find hilarious. Until Ford upgraded the T5 in 1989, quite a few 5spds were replaced in the Mustang due to weak internals. Maybe they didnt do their homework for putting a car in such extreme conditions. Brakes too like you mentioned. They warp the first time you nail the brakes slowing from 100mph. Brakes are very critical to those police tests. Maybe try reading the police books where they compared the 1991 B4C to the 1991 SSP. As a matter of fact the Camaro smashed the competition in 1991, the B4C beat it in every aspect Lets talk about putting some engineering thought into the Pony police car wars. GM at least used 4wdb's and also used the dual piston front calipers from the Corvettes to help slow these cars down. Ford chose to NEVER upgrade the brakes in the SSP from 1982-1993. Retarded in my opinion having a hot little car with tiny front rotors and rear drums.

In closing I would add, yes the 5.0 SSP has left one hell of a mark in the police industry. I currently own a 1993 SSP from the USPS investigations unit. I have owned at least 15 1987-1993 Police mustangs from 1990 till now. Same with B4C's and the 9C1's. I love them all, but if I want true performance, I am getting in my B4C. I know it has power, handling and braking. The mustang only had one of those, power and its power is far from the LS1. I to did OWN a 2002 B4C. Yes, when cold, sounded like a diesel, but who cares. Try doing a oil analysis on yours to calm your mind. I ran one and had nothing out of the ordinary.

As far as the 2002 B4C having more problems than any other police car made, well I have two words Bull Sh*t. 9C1's had axle failures, Mustangs had axle failures, 9C1's had tranny failures, SSP had tranny failures, P71 has every failure known to man. They all have their issues but I think you are looking for a car that has never been made yet, a bullet proof perfect car that never breaks down. Enjoy your car, dont believe everything some people tell you as gospel. I have had tons of these cars and work on them all and know all of their quirks. Ask your sources how they like the P71? If they say it is great, I wouldnt trust their word on where to buy an ice cream.

9c1lt1

The fact that thin disc 3/4 clutch packs with non high energy material helped with the failure rate of these units, but I have still owned quite a few 3rd gen '91-'92 B4Cs with the original trannies that shifted just fine, well over 100k on them.

No such vehicle exists that I know of, only '91s and '92s for

Actually, they were available with the 305/5-speed combo or the 350/A4 combo. Both included the G92 package so the 305s got the 3.42 rear gear and the A4s got the 3.23 gears.

Rotors seem to warp as soon as the brakes were applied, they seem to be way undersized from what I've seen. I don't think Ford ever fixed the brake problem as I've seen 93s with warped rotors. I've driven an 89 on a windy day through Northern Cal and cannot believe how unstable the car was at 80mph. I would honestly be affraid to go faster than 100mph without an extra clean pair of underwear

I will admit the rear ends tend to be a week point in the bearing department, rebuilt quite a few lately, but the fact is the Ford Crown Vic and the Mustang never had the power output of the LT1 Caprice or L98/LT1/LS1 B4C Camaro to put as much stress on the drivetrain in general.

Just reminds me that the engine is running

After owning many L98, LT1, and a few LS1 B4Cs along with many 9C1 Caprices, I can say that the forementioned engines are some of the most durable units out there. Especially after folks like us mod them and run them another 100k+ miles

PaintBallR

That was a great read and a great post. Yes, I am the true born GM guy that will drive nothing but GM... because of quality and history. My family has owned 1 Ford, nothing but problems and that was all it took for my family to stick with GM. I own a 91 Z28(summer) and a 86 2.8L (winter). Both Camaro's are a blast to drive and they are reliable as can be.

I haven't did any big repairs on my 91 for 5 seasons now and the 86 was running great...until it was stolen and destroyed.
For the prices that car makers are charging these days you would think that you are also buying the peace of mind that your car is not going to stop dead in the middle of nowhere.

I have never bought a new car becase it's the worst investment I will ever make so I always buy second hand (the new Camaro might be the first new car I buy). It may take me a long time to find one(5 years to find the 91) but when I do it's well taken care of. I have only owned 4 cars since I started to drive and I'm 32 now they have all been GM. I live in Alberta and it gets real cold down here so the cars need to be reliable, thats why I drive only GM.

These days I think GM is starting to go down hill in quality of the cars they are building. My Father just bought a new 05 Impala and he has had alot of problems with it. Now he says,

"For the amount of money I paid for this car, I could have bought a Honda or Toyota they are alot more reliable"
That seems to be what most of the ppl are thinking now cause all I see on the road is imports and less domestic. The resale alone is worth buying an import. My Dad will maybe get half of what he paid for his car if he's lucky when he sells it.

If GM wants to still make cars in the future, they can't make POS cars, especially when it's the police driving them. They risk their necks everyday for us and the least the car maker can do for them is having a safe and reliable car. What better testimony is their than from the ppl who drive them everyday and put them under the hard conditions.

In my city, the police drive Ford, we just put sherifs on the highways here and they drive Ford also. GM had always kicked the crap out of Ford but now times are changing, actions speak louder that words.

GM better get of thier butts and start making good quality cars if they want to stay in business and compete. The 5th gen better be a damn well built car because it's going to represent the entire company. It's going to draw more ppl in the show rooms and maybe that guy who was thinking about buying a mustang will buy the Camaro instead.

I hope the police buy at least a few 5th gens,mustangs and imports to put on the road to test them out and I hope GM doesn't give them crap.
If the police don't buy any 5th gens.... I agree with you, it's GM's own fault and it's going to be thier down fall in the future cause no one want to drive a money pit.

Thanks for letting me blow of some steam.

UHP-CAMARO

I wonder if GM will bother to go through the trouble and cost to develop a Fifth Generation B4C Camaro and get it certified at the Michigan State Police Test's.

Sales numbers to Police Departments would be pretty dismal IMO, GM would sell some for sure but would the sales numbers justify the cost's.

Other than for braging rights of a Police Package Camaro I don't see a 5th Gen B4C being produced. I would love to see one but time will tell.

Sixer-Bird

I learned from my first two 4th gen f-body experiences. My 01 V6 had but one option: t tops. Crank windows, manual door locks, not even remote hatch release. Nothing went wrong in the two years I owned it. Best car I ever owned. Even the Acura is second to it. (I had a regulator on one of my Xenon headlights go out just after the warranty expired. Luckily Acura agreed to cover the $300 for the part and I just had to pay the labor.)

BADAZZ_Z

I really don't think that the repairs that the B4C Camaro's needed to have were any different than any other domestic vehicle with a little age on it. Surely the standards today will yield a much finer product, one I fully intend to purchase!

DPDoldhead

You guys are starting to scare me. I just bought a 2002 SS 35th Aniv. edition w/14000 miles. It does have a rear end squeak but Im to old to realy dog it much. The only other Camaro I owned was a 74 z28 type lt that I custom ordered. It went through two engines in 50000 miles. Thermostat stuck from factory and it overheated to say the least. This almost soured me on Chevy's. Are there any good cures for the squeaks. Mine is a convertible and i read one post about silicone grease sprayed on the springs and bushings. Any other sugestions???

DPDoldhead

You guys are starting to scare me. I just bought a 2002 SS 35th Aniv. edition w/14000 miles. It does have a rear end squeak but Im to old to realy dog it much. The only other Camaro I owned was a 74 z28 type lt that I custom ordered. It went through two engines in 50000 miles. Thermostat stuck from factory and it overheated to say the least. This almost soured me on Chevy's. Are there any good cures for the squeaks. Mine is a convertible and i read one post about silicone grease sprayed on the springs and bushings. Any other sugestions???