This post is for the people at GM that are responsible for the Camaro in general, but all law enforcement vehicle marketing in particular.

This post is also for those who want to see the next Camaro be the best it can be.

This post is not for GM or Camaro lapdogs.

If you have owned nothing but GM vehicles, dream of nothing but GM vehicles, and are the type of person who if GM balled up a wad of aluminium foil and stuck an engine in it, you'd still be convinced it's better than anything Ford or Chrysler can make, this post isn't for you, and turning defensive isn't going to do a thing to improve the car, and help it to live to the 6th gen.


I want to make a few things clear before I start.

First,
Police vehicles DO NOT NEED TO BE THE FASTEST ON THE ROAD. I want to emphasize this for the "engine-in-a-box" guys before they surface.

Second
Police vehicle DO have to be dependable, durable, and very cheap to repair. Most law enforcement agencies have extremely tight budgets. Although, some agencies like the California Highway Patrol tend to sell their vehicles once the extended warranty is over (100,000 miles), they still have plenty of parts that aren't covered, run them over that (my car had 108K when I bought it), and like a passenger jet, time in the shop for repairs essentially costs them money since the car's not usable.


Third,
Despite a car's "racing" reputation, running hours on end in California desert heat (including idling), running frequent ***** to the wall acceleration from a dead stop (on many highways here, the CHP focuses on speeders doing over 88 & 90 mph, and they are big on take down times), hard core U-turns, highway crossings, off-ramp/freeeway bridge-crossing/on ramp/ and catch the speeder who went the other way doing 100 all tend to separate the cars that live up to any reputation to those that can't take it.




That established, here the situation,
I've had a long standing connection with people in the California Highway Patrol that dates back to the days when I bought Special Service Mustangs from them and sold them at a modest markup (but cheaper than what everyone else was asking in the Autotrader) and used the profits to finance the upgrades to my own SS Mustang, and later my 1st Thunderbird SC.

Over a year and a half ago, I visited the place for the 1st time in years and there happened to be a B4C Camaro with new brakes, transmission, rear end, bushings, and a few other items for sale. Checked with the guy I knew inside and when I found the car had been assigned to a single officer and had been involved in a shootout (they had the news article & the car still had a bullet hole) I bought it on the spot, despite already having a '97 Z28 and 2 Thunderbirds. This was also one of the 1st B4C Camaros turned in from the field, so there was still the "wow" factor to them (CHP bought 102 in early 2002... the only batch they ever bought).



Today, I went to talk to my buddy at the transportation facility in Sacremento, responsible for recieving & preparing, repairing, and then decomissioning, and final disposal of all California Highway Patrol vehicles in the Northern half of California. A friend of mine was intrested in a CHP B4C Camaro also, so since I was going up there anyway, I wanted to check on them.

The opinion of the Camaro B4C is far different today than it was when I bought mine. And that opinion isn't positive.


The CHP Camaros have had repeated transmission failures. Every single Camaro that went through the Northeren office had at least one of it's power window motors fail, and many have gone through 2 motors ( in all fairness, I didn't ask if it was each side, or the same window motor twice).

The Camaros also have had numerous rear end failures. He mentions that with only a couple of exceptions, the engines all make noise. He also advised me to tell my friend he doesn't want the ones they are getting rid of.

I listened to every item they mentioned.

They match everything that was replaced in my B4C before I bought it.

Currently, both of my power window motors have failed. I've frequently called my B4C a Diesel Camaro because of the clatter it makes till it actually gets warmed up. According to the CHP guys, it gets worse as it ages.

The CHP typically does repairs on the cars they sell to the public. However, the Camaros that have been coming through, according to them, as a group are so far gone that it's far more economical for the state to send them straight to private auction and let them dispose of the cars.

The guy there was still on the lookout for a decent one coming through decomission to turn over to the academy next door.


A conversation I had with another person up there echoed the problems with the Camaros. In this instance, the conversation drifted to the Fox Mustangs they used to use, and the small amount of Camaros the CHP used in the late 70s and early 80s.

His view is that Ford started out with a durable engine and tranny, & actually took the time and effort on their police packages. Items he noted were special hoses & clamps, heavy duty alternators that lasted forever, and during the last few years, external engine oil coolers.

Meanwhile, their view is that GM's B4C Camaros were basically plucked off the aseembly line and thrown out there, and any weakness the car already had was exasperated in heavy use.

Neither were impressed with the Camaro. Both were less than enthusiastic about buying a future GM product, especially another Camaro.


I've owned 3 4th gen Camaros, and although I'm impressed with the speed and the handling, as a group and excluding acceleration and roadholding, they aren't very good cars.

Of 3 Camaros:

* All had power window failures. 2 of them multiple times.

* The '93 & '97 Z28 had fuel guages that went from 1/4 tank to fuel out seemingly within a gallon.

* The 93Z (automatic) and my current B4C (automatic) had their trannys replaced before I got them. The B around 75K, the '93 around 100K.

* My '97 Z28 (bought almost new) 6 speed manual went through 3 clutches within 140K miles. My 80s era Mustang (abused by the CHP before I bought it) had 2 changes in 225,000 miles. One by the CHP, and one when I had the tranny rebuilt at 190K miles. Don't get me started on my SCs. I've NEVER had to replace a clutch!

*My '97 made rear end noises just before I sold it. My '93 had it's rearend replaced before I bought it (120K miles). Again, the rear end in my '85 5.0 Mustang was never replaced. Again, over 220K miles. No noises when I sold it.

What makes this whole thing even more maddening is that these things happen so frequently, General Motors could only puropsely ignore them, and quite bluntly was derilict in fixing these issues. The 4th gen was in production for 10 seasons. The only reason I can come up with for not fixing these issues is the belief that GM viewed Camaro buyers as enthusiastic lapdogs who instead of making an issue over these things would simply cough up the money to go to a GM dealer & buy parts from GM to fix them. No other reason makes a thread of sense.



Getting to the point to this whole post, I get a feeling GM is focusing on things such as interior quality, feel of materials, tight gaps between panels, and tightness of switchgears. But may be missing the parts that are going to make the car legendary.... it's ability to handle extreme use. It's ability to hold up beyond the warranty period. It's this ability that made me a Ford guy for many years, and sold my sister on the idea of getting a Mustang (which Ford promtly blew when they started pinching pennys and cutting costs in the mid 90s). My dad considered getting his 1st Ford truck in nearly 20 years because of how my Stang held up (he was absolutely blown away on how many relatively trouble free miles I raked up especially when I went over 200K.... and he advised me against getting a police car! ). I don't know how many people I've sold on Fords and Mustangs with that car.... I had it for 11 years!

This is what's going to sell cars once the enthusiast have all bought up their share. People are going to see that these cars hold up, stay solid, stay trouble free, and start thinking "I know so-and-so is hard on cars, but his car is holding up. It must be a good car!".


I'm looking forward to Mustang & Camaro competition again (Challenger will be in a league of it's own). As is the case with all good competition, you want both parties to seriously compete against each other, and you want good strong cars on each side. The excitement spreads to the rest of the line in each camp, and I'm pretty sure at least some of the public that has had it's share of bland Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas, will get caught up in this as well.

 

Good read, I can say that I'm a Camaro fan, but am willing to hear out a good argument like this one. I can only hope they address the weaknesses of the Camaros past and make this new one a much more solid piece of machinery.

 

4th gens are decently quick cars that handle decently but are rattle trap POSs. I've come to accept that, as ridiculous as it is. All we can do is hope that the 5th gens will be built better.

 

I can certainly see where this rant comes from. Both my 4th gens were, although in nice shape, not the best cars in the world. Quite a few flaws and design errors get overlooked when you get 300hp in a decent package on the cheap.

However, that was with used cars.

If I walk into my local Chevy dealer in 2008, and sit in the new Camaro, and so much as hear the seat groan, or the seatback move NEARLY as much as the old one did (floppy POS), or have to fiddle with the seatbelt for five minutes to get it un-furled, or any of the other ten thousand myriad annoyances from the 4th gens, Im walking across the street and taking a hard look at a Challenger.

Same thing goes with the rearend, and the window motors, etc etc. Anything fiddly Ive heard goes wrong with the car will certainly be taken into account, instead of discounted.

If they force me to take that walk across the street, maybe Ill pick one up as a toy when its 5-10 years old. But a new car? It better inspire the same confidence as when you sit down in a new Corvette, Silverado, Yukon, etc. I will accept nothing less.

 

I only "accept" these flaws in my car because I'm the GM/Chevy/Camaro "lap-dog" you describe!! I'm a GM faithful, grown up this way (Dad has always been a Chevy guy ... owns/owned several F-bodies over the years) so it's in my blood I guess?

BUT, you are 100% correct on all of those issues, and as much as I'm loyal to GM, and I'll try to defend them to people I know (friends/co-workers) it pi$$es me off that they NEED to be defended!!

Build a good product, and let it speak for itself!!

The Corvette is the "lucky one" ... it's always had a good reputation ... its name speaks for itself.

Let's see, what's been replaced on my 2002 Camaro so far:

- cracked interior panel (rear seat area, passenger's side)
- driver's window motor
- rear hatch glass (malfunctioning rear defroster)
- front right wheel bearing (had about ~40k on it)
- catalytic converter
- differential carrier bearing (actually failed, not as part of a re-build)
- differential pinion gear (technically part of the 4.10's, but factory units die too)
- and the BIG ONE ..... 2nd gear in the 4L60E (about ~60k on it)

... you're right, Guy . GM needs to step up, BUILD this car RIGHT, or just throw in the towel now and forget about it . This has to be the BEST Camaro EVER, or it will fail, and I'll eventually have to get a 'Vette, if I don't get turned onto a Mustang or Challenger in the meantime .

How is it that Ford can put a supercharger on an engine, and still warranty it?? Oh yeah, because the motor is forged. What a concept!!!

 

I wont get into the fox Mustang thing so much because its unfair to compare clutch use and rear end noise with a car that is 350-500lbs lighter, has roughly 50-75 less hp (unless you get honest about how much horsepower the LS1 cars REALLY make, then its more like 100 less hp!), and even less torque. Fundamentally, powertrain parts are going to last longer.

With that said....

Guy, everything you have listed has at some point been a thought in my head. Repeatidly and over and over again as Yogi would say.

I can't FOR THE LIFE OF ME understand how (Sorry Scott and everyone else) GM's 2nd most capable performer (barely 2nd in some years) gets the SMALLEST rear end in the parts bin!! It's a car that is Clearly aimed at Gearheads that will illegaly drive the snot out of the cars both on and off road. Over time the "unnecessary" owner abuse becomes GM's problem because the car earns (keyword EARNS) the perception that it isnt a durable piece. And spare me the "Well, if you wouldnt drive it hard....." I wouldve bought a Lumina or pickup if I wasnt interested in spirited driving..

Many times Ive thought "Why dont I just switch to the Mustangs?? Why do I keep doing this?" For me, I was in a group of mostly mustang friends that were driving just as hard and racing just as much as me so I saw the foxes and sn95's were just as vunerable to problems, just slower. They went through T-5's 3:1 at BEST versus my T56, so there was an upside other than "Everyone owns Mustangs," to keeping in the Chevy camp.

Did they actually drive the car after they designed and built it?? They can get the gauge proportioning right in my Isuzu Hombre, but not the Heartbeat of America?? Excellent point that never gets brought up here BTW.

Just from knowing many people with 4th gens, that I can tell, this is another problem that was Never addressed throughout the lifespan. Just chit-chatting with other owners at gas pumps or a family reunion, this is one topic that ALWAYS gets brought up. No matter if it sa 3 minute conversation about "nice car!!" or visiting an old friend, that complaint always comes out. All years included. Not so much with 3rd gen owners though..

I'll stop now..

 

hmmm. I think I am on board. at 20k

1. door panel cracked.
2. T-tops/door handles/dash areas sqeek
3. Headlight doors sound like they are self destructing every time you turn them off.
4. Front rotors hinting at warp.
5. POS clutch hydraulics are done..
6. window motors dirt slow.

Thank goodness my engine does not have the piston slap and so far the tranny and rear are holding up, but it probably is a matter of time.

 

You AREN'T going to believe this, I just got a recall notice in the mail regarding the catalytic converter on the 2002 V8 Camaros. GM will replace them if they fail by 120K miles. Then I came back and got back on the computer & read your post!

You might look into getting reimbursed.

Coinsidence?

 

Like a battered woman we'll keep coming back. Can't say the same for the CHP though.

 

Nice! Luckily (at the time) the converter was done under "factory" warranty . And NOW, I see a set of LT's going in over the winter, so the factory cats will be null & void soon! But my car has set the P0420/0430 codes quite a few times before .

Also, JCS30TH just mentioned warped rotors. Yup! Had those too!!

 

I have warped rotors on everything ive ever owned.

 

I think all alot of those issues are due to the fact, according to what I heard from Scott a few years back, that the LT1 was a very late addition to the 4th gen. Because of this it sounds like alot of engineering couldn't be done to completely validate or test the hardware with the engine.

I'm not making excuses, believe me. None of that is acceptable today.

 

I would say that the driveline, outside of the rear-end, is one of the most reliable parts of a 4th gen, particularly the 98+ cars. Its the ancillaries, body electrical, and general build quality that sucks.

 

Problem. Beyond warranty reliability doesn't sell a car. Extreme use isn't covered under warranty and won't sell a car either.

However.....
All car guys know that if they take car xxxxx and drive the doors off the thing, it will still run. There are numerous videos on the internet of guys taking rabbits, old hondas, old toyotas, etc. and purposely trying to get the things to fail. Jumping ramps, mounds of dirt, running stuff over, slamming on the brakes, and putting a brick on the gas pedal. One video had a car sit at redline for probably 10 minutes before the engine blew.

That is why some of these people buy their newer models. They believe that these cars are too stuborn to break and their new one will run practically forever (even though they will most likely sell it well before 100k miles).
However, not just car guys think this way. I know of many people with great opinions of the old VW bug's reliability.

Beyond extreme use and reliability beyond a warranty doesn't sell a car. (the pubic won't know its a good car for 5-10 years).
However...
Beyond extreme use and reliability beyond a warranty does sell cars.

 

On my 95 Z/28 I've replaced the driver's pw motor twice, and the rear diff seal twice as well. (And I think its leaking again. ).

When I first had it serviced in 1995, the dealer noticed a leaking rear main; also several bolts were missing off the front sway bar, and it looked as if they had simply been missed at the factory.

Twice I've had rattles and squeaks fixed and it looks like the rear seat has worked its way loose again.

Still, I am a Chevy man to the bone, and a Camaro man first and foremost. (Well I do own 5 Chevys, 3 of which are Camaros. ) It doesn't matter what the build quality is, I am still buying a new Camaro in a few years.