NewbieWar

the problem with sports cars is styling is also important aside from performance... thus increases reasoning to do an overlap...

when you need an aveo or cobalt... you dont need 5 choices from one company... when you are looking for a midsized sedan, you dont need 5 to chose from, you will only pick between 2 or 3...

with sports cars however... the camaro for me... used to be awesome, but I have never owned one... only 2 firebirds... and now the camaro styling (4th gen) seemed to bland... too smooth, i'm more for the boy racer look that the firebird had... this is why I think a "Second Try" car would be good for the sports car arena... The corvette has the ultra luxuary XLR sister... so i dont see why the camaro couldnt have a more agressively styled luxurous version... better interior more refined...

but thats just my thought... that style is extremely important when choosing sports cars... so why not have 2 styles to choose from? you have 3 or 4 epsilons, plenty of deltas... 2 kappas... why not 2 sigma lights?

KevinZ44

Don't count on anything released before '09 to carry the Camaro or Firebird names. GM made an agreement at the discontinuation of the Camaro & Firebird that the popular nameplate would not be used again until several years later.

This, however, does not mean that the two door car will not be a Camaro or Firebird later or that models are not planned for both nameplates. The most current rumours suggest that a new, four door muscle car will be called a Chevelle; after the Chevelle, then the Camaro nameplate will be used again on a pure muscled 2 door car.

The four door Chevelle will have two suicide rear doors and two full front doors. After all, GM needs something to compete with that Dodge Charger.

We will see what happens.

Hoodshaker

Yes, I want to count. Both cars had the the exact same # of noses/hoods/tail lights/ bumpers with the single exception that the Firebird used a different front/rear bumper for the Trans Ams. The '93-'97 V6 Birds had all red tailights, while V8 cars had black lines in them ('98 up all got the same tail lights). But wait, the Camaro had an export only tail light that cost just as much to design. So the net difference is the '93-'97 and the '98-'02 TA bumpers. Hardly a budget busting life of priviledge for the Bird, in my opinion.

And about those much higher #s the Camaro sold in...From 1997 to 2003 (includes left over 02's) The Camaro sold 182,396 to Firebird's 134,966. That means the Firebird sold 73.9% as many cars with FAR fewer dealers and a higher price. That sounds about right to me. We do know that Chevy is GM's VOLUME brand, right? Does GM have a platform where a Chevy is out sold by one of its' sister cars?

Without those additional 134,966 cars how long would the F body have survived? The next Camaro will have platform mates or it won't exist. Period. If you would rather the car had to make compromises with its 4 door sedan brethren without the additional pontiac sales to help its case, then I don't know what to say, other than 3,650lbs and McPherson struts here we come.

I really don't understand the Firebird hate. The cars both need and help each other. Personally I steer clear of the Z28/SS debate, but rest assured that without Pontiac and SLP taking the risk (in 1992!)and doing a Firehawk and later the WS6, then we would not have seen the return of the SS package.

In the immortal words of my brother Rodney, "can't we just all get along?"

RussStang

Uh, you haven't done much reading around on this forum, at least not for very long, have you? At this point we are sure there will be a Camaro concept at NAIAS this January. The use of the name is not a problem to GM anymore. Getting the car out in a timely and orderly fashion (i.e. in the next year or two) probably will be though.

RussStang

You won't find any coming from me. I really do hope the car comes back, and not in another 25 or 30 years, but maybe a few years after the Camaro. Although it has been discussed many times on this board what it might take to bring a Firebird back, the truth of the matter is that although there may be a chance in the next few years, it is likely a really small one.

dav305z

So, how much is GM spending on the Saturn Sky? Is that entirely fresh sheetmetal worth the additional sales it will net? Will those sales come close to what the Firebird did in its final year, when it was hobbled with a horrible interior and a frightening nose.

I don't understand GM's logic for what constitutes worthy of badge engineering.

Aklaim

I love how every newbie in the world comes on here and trys to inform of us of what we already know, or already know not to be true. Or how somebodys cousins brother in-law works for GM and they've seen the car or Bob Lutz told them blah blah blah..... SEARCH!!! It's the button on the top!

NewbieWar

how many people would feel the saturn is a better car? better interior and better exterior styling.. the pontiac is unique, the front bumper's angles are amazing... but thats all... so you pay 5k more for the saturn, because it's been taken care of more...

but still with a car that is basically hand built badge engeneering doesnt matter...

Maximum Bob

As has already been stated, the Camaro HAS to be a sales success for there to be any chance of a Firebird. But allowing for that, I don't see any problem with Pontiac getting one. Chevy has & will have multiple models with v-8's. So why can't Pontiac? The GTO would remain the flagship with sophisticated styling & come standard loaded with about a $35-40,000 price tag comfortable seating for 5 & a usable trunk. The up & coming family man's hot rod in other words. The Firebird would be the entry level sport coupe with a base v-6 model for about $20,000, possibly an Esprit or S/E model loaded with the comfort & convenience features, a Fomula which would be the base car with a v-8, both of these basing for about $25,000, & finally a Trans Am which add a killer susp. & brake pkg. & more agressive styling to the Formula & should base for about $30,000. Also as has been pointed out the car could share platform & still look almost completely different. Just like 'Vette & XLR, Solstice & Sky, Cobalt & Ion, Monte Carlo & Impala & Grand Prix. Anyway you get the idea. So I'm hoping the new Camaro is a Grand Slam!

SFireGT98

Search this forum and ye shall be enlightened and thus stripped of ye false info

BigggD222

Agree with you up until the Formula part........A Formula should be the one with execellent handling and brake package, and the Trans Am have the bigger faster engine for strait line speed! I know alot of hardtop Formulas were converted to road racing cars for SCCA, NASA, and a lot of those other series...And on the topic of road racing, if the Camaro does end up hitting showroom floors soon, do you think they will have any kind of racing efforts with the car? Like in the Rolex Grand-Am series or the American Le Mans Series? It would be sweet to see a C6-R and "Z28-R" on the track at the same time!

Z284ever

There's no Firebird hate, on the contrary. I hope one day GM can make the business case for a new Firebird.

But personally, I really don't see the point of a new Firebird if it's merely a restyled Camaro.

Last of a Breed

Well there might not be any hate from you, but there plenty is from others on here.

And I'll agree to an extent if it's just a restyled Camaro, the case might not be made ( though I bought my car because I preferred its styling over Camaro), there still is enough GM rebadging as was posted above, that Pontiac could use an intermediate RWD coupe if GTO is suppsoed to stay at the upper level.

NewbieWar

its just because some people are selfish, all they want is what they have always cared about... but what to me makes the camaro great is its companionship with the firebird... so they must go hand in hand in my opinion

RussStang

Just curious, what was the business case for the Sky? That is just a fully loaded Solstice.