475HP 7L 3760lb Z/28 $36K - How do we get there?
10-09-2008, 12:01 AM
#31
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Although I've read about people using LS7 blocks the way you described, I seriously disagree with you on your points and Corvette conspiracy theory, and I think the facts bear me out here.
First, GM looks at things as: "What's the cheapest, highest volume way to go where we can cheat the fuel economy tests?".
Because of that, I don't believe there was some dark conspiracy to not produce a "cheap" LS7 because they want to keep it exclusive to Corvette. I know that GM at least looked into an LS7 Camaro & decided against it (which I suspect will be in that Camaro book headed to press soon). But for cost, durability, EPA testing cycles, and power output, GM decided that a supercharged LSa was a superior choice.
First, GM looks at things as: "What's the cheapest, highest volume way to go where we can cheat the fuel economy tests?".
Because of that, I don't believe there was some dark conspiracy to not produce a "cheap" LS7 because they want to keep it exclusive to Corvette. I know that GM at least looked into an LS7 Camaro & decided against it (which I suspect will be in that Camaro book headed to press soon). But for cost, durability, EPA testing cycles, and power output, GM decided that a supercharged LSa was a superior choice.
What spec'd the LSA in the next Z/28 was the Ford GT500. Simple as that. GM wanted a $40K+ bruiser to hand the the GT500 it's *ss on a platter, gas mileage, weight, and handling be damned.
But there's a big, huge, massive, glairing, 800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room, obvious point I feel you may have completely missed in all this:
The LS7 puts out 505 horsepower and 475 lbs/ft of torque.
The LSa puts out 556 horsepower and 550 lbs/ft of torque.
I suspect that alone puts any notion of this latest Corvette conspiracy to rest.
If not, then these might:
The LSa is cheaper to produce than the LS7.
The LS7 puts out 505 horsepower and 475 lbs/ft of torque.
The LSa puts out 556 horsepower and 550 lbs/ft of torque.
I suspect that alone puts any notion of this latest Corvette conspiracy to rest.
If not, then these might:
The LSa is cheaper to produce than the LS7.
Course you can keep quoting the price tag of a hand assembled LS7 with titanium rods and valves and ported heads. I'll still be here to point it out.
The LSa offered inhuman power output next to a comparatively detuned, "mass produced" LS7.
NA 7.0 can run the same tranny as the LS3.
MB ran into the exact same problem on their AMG series. The old 55 stuff had the SC'd 5.5L that required the big heavy duty 5spd auto. They tossed the SC'd 5.5 for the new 6.2L and can run a lighter 7spd auto. And they picked fuel economy, weight savings and PERFORMANCE.
Ford has an excuse for their GT500. They don't have anything other that FI to make up for lack of displacement.
Strike 2
The LSa can be programed to bypass the supercharger at key times during the EPA test cycle and the CAFE rating tests.
But I'd estimate the CTS-V is going to rated about 14/22 a little better than a 5500lb pickup. And the LSA Z/28 would be about the same.
Thermodynamics lesson number 47. Superchargers are ****ty on gas mileage.
Also, the LS3 already has 436 horsepower in the Corvette and easily has factory capability in excess of 450 if they chose to up the power.
Just a decision that gave the most powerful engine possible with the best fuel economy possible at the lowest cost possible.
If you want to build the GM version of the GT500, I say all the way. Along with its weight and $45K pricedtag.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for GM's plans to change and make a "cheap" LS7. It simply is not going to happen. Power and fuel economy boosting direct injection is far more likely the next step.
The 7.0 can be built for cheap and still make big power. And not add weight and not detract from fuel economy. And not require HD tranny's to live behind it.
None of those things apply on the SCed LSA.
Guy, you've got good points on the weight reduction side of this argument. But when it comes to engines, you need to quit while you're behind.
10-09-2008, 01:49 PM
#32
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I mostly agree. But on the issue of the LS3, I do think that they could do a hotter version of it with near 500HP, although it would probably have some more NVH and worse fuel economy. That extra displacement gets you a good deal more torque, but the LS3's that are modded slightly put out nearly as much power as a stock LS7. The torque is not nearly the same, and the difference becomes substantial again if you mod the LS7.
I really think a better answer than an LS3 or a deconted LS7 would be a performance version of the L92. The guys have been putting up some serious numbers playing around with the VVT and upgrading the cam.
I really think a better answer than an LS3 or a deconted LS7 would be a performance version of the L92. The guys have been putting up some serious numbers playing around with the VVT and upgrading the cam.
10-11-2008, 07:16 PM
#33
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The better question is would anyone pay 5k more for 75 hp and a few less pounds. I would not. I am more concerned about the overall balance and performance of the car and value. As far as saving 40lbs in the area of seats, I doubt it. Safety standards require very stout seats in the U.S. . Simply taking the power portion of the seats out may save a few pounds but not 40. In the Camaro only the drivers seat is power.
2) Autocross guys would. (factory-items are big pluses when picking platforms)
3) Road-race guys would... again, stock classes would make it more attractive... and not just the Z28, but lower models that could be engine swapped, brake swapped, etc... later within rules.
4) High-rollers. The guys who make bucks and PAY for cars as they come from the factory. These are the guys that buy stock Vipers/Vettes/etc.. and leave/drive them that way, but definitely like the status of driving the "big dog" version. These buyers may be sacrifical gains from prospective SS buyers, but not completely as they may be Mustang or Challenger/Magnum/300 or even 350Z converts.
Not everyone looks at a car and thinks "I wonder how much BETTER I could make it"... some just read Car and Driver and read comparisons of factory cars on factory tires and assume that its fixed in stone. There are A LOT of buyers like that.
10-11-2008, 07:23 PM
#34
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Another option would be one of those bad *** 300hp V6's taken to 360 or higher using hybrid technology. A cylinder-deactivating V6 with electric torque plate to boost performance at WOT and economy at idle/low speeds would scream SALES. Not everyone wants to accept the 3+ hours of charging the Telsa roadster and other all-electric vehicles require, and the hybrid tech has already been proven in GM Tahoes and other heavy vehicles with decent torque gains... it may mean a shorter torque-tube/driveshaft, and a few extra pounds, but by dropping back to a V6 platform you may offset the weight gains and power loss. A hybrid-V6 Camaro could be a serious contender in Autocross, 1/8th mile drags, and of course daily drivers.
10-11-2008, 07:44 PM
#35
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1) Enthusiasts would.
2) Autocross guys would. (factory-items are big pluses when picking platforms)
3) Road-race guys would... again, stock classes would make it more attractive... and not just the Z28, but lower models that could be engine swapped, brake swapped, etc... later within rules.
4) High-rollers. The guys who make bucks and PAY for cars as they come from the factory. These are the guys that buy stock Vipers/Vettes/etc.. and leave/drive them that way, but definitely like the status of driving the "big dog" version. These buyers may be sacrifical gains from prospective SS buyers, but not completely as they may be Mustang or Challenger/Magnum/300 or even 350Z converts.
Not everyone looks at a car and thinks "I wonder how much BETTER I could make it"... some just read Car and Driver and read comparisons of factory cars on factory tires and assume that its fixed in stone. There are A LOT of buyers like that.
2) Autocross guys would. (factory-items are big pluses when picking platforms)
3) Road-race guys would... again, stock classes would make it more attractive... and not just the Z28, but lower models that could be engine swapped, brake swapped, etc... later within rules.
4) High-rollers. The guys who make bucks and PAY for cars as they come from the factory. These are the guys that buy stock Vipers/Vettes/etc.. and leave/drive them that way, but definitely like the status of driving the "big dog" version. These buyers may be sacrifical gains from prospective SS buyers, but not completely as they may be Mustang or Challenger/Magnum/300 or even 350Z converts.
Not everyone looks at a car and thinks "I wonder how much BETTER I could make it"... some just read Car and Driver and read comparisons of factory cars on factory tires and assume that its fixed in stone. There are A LOT of buyers like that.
It won't take much to make my SS faster than his Vette 
But he'll probably buy a ZR1 then.
10-11-2008, 07:58 PM
#36
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A lighter camaro would be great, 3800lbs is terribly high for a modern 2 door sports sedan..
However,
I believe GM when they say they have tried their best to cut weight everywhere they can and still maintain safety and quality standards at a reasonable price.
If guys want a radically lighter car, sacrifices will need to be made, to all three. Safety, realiability and affordability.
Not only during its warrenty period but also beyond that. I intend to own my camaro for as long as I can, and like most of us, probably throwing in some extra power and more than a few track days. If I can manage a half million kilometers on it as well, I will use them all up. I will take a heavy(er) car made of good material and quality assembly if it means I can enjoy this car for the next few decades and it will hold up to a few laps around the track.
However,
I believe GM when they say they have tried their best to cut weight everywhere they can and still maintain safety and quality standards at a reasonable price.
If guys want a radically lighter car, sacrifices will need to be made, to all three. Safety, realiability and affordability.
Not only during its warrenty period but also beyond that. I intend to own my camaro for as long as I can, and like most of us, probably throwing in some extra power and more than a few track days. If I can manage a half million kilometers on it as well, I will use them all up. I will take a heavy(er) car made of good material and quality assembly if it means I can enjoy this car for the next few decades and it will hold up to a few laps around the track.
10-12-2008, 11:20 AM
#37
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1) Enthusiasts would.
2) Autocross guys would. (factory-items are big pluses when picking platforms)
3) Road-race guys would... again, stock classes would make it more attractive... and not just the Z28, but lower models that could be engine swapped, brake swapped, etc... later within rules.
4) High-rollers. The guys who make bucks and PAY for cars as they come from the factory. These are the guys that buy stock Vipers/Vettes/etc.. and leave/drive them that way, but definitely like the status of driving the "big dog" version. These buyers may be sacrifical gains from prospective SS buyers, but not completely as they may be Mustang or Challenger/Magnum/300 or even 350Z converts.
Not everyone looks at a car and thinks "I wonder how much BETTER I could make it"... some just read Car and Driver and read comparisons of factory cars on factory tires and assume that its fixed in stone. There are A LOT of buyers like that.
2) Autocross guys would. (factory-items are big pluses when picking platforms)
3) Road-race guys would... again, stock classes would make it more attractive... and not just the Z28, but lower models that could be engine swapped, brake swapped, etc... later within rules.
4) High-rollers. The guys who make bucks and PAY for cars as they come from the factory. These are the guys that buy stock Vipers/Vettes/etc.. and leave/drive them that way, but definitely like the status of driving the "big dog" version. These buyers may be sacrifical gains from prospective SS buyers, but not completely as they may be Mustang or Challenger/Magnum/300 or even 350Z converts.
Not everyone looks at a car and thinks "I wonder how much BETTER I could make it"... some just read Car and Driver and read comparisons of factory cars on factory tires and assume that its fixed in stone. There are A LOT of buyers like that.
10-12-2008, 11:26 AM
#38
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Location: Chandler, AZ
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A lighter camaro would be great, 3800lbs is terribly high for a modern 2 door sports sedan..
However,
I believe GM when they say they have tried their best to cut weight everywhere they can and still maintain safety and quality standards at a reasonable price.
If guys want a radically lighter car, sacrifices will need to be made, to all three. Safety, realiability and affordability.
Not only during its warrenty period but also beyond that. I intend to own my camaro for as long as I can, and like most of us, probably throwing in some extra power and more than a few track days. If I can manage a half million kilometers on it as well, I will use them all up. I will take a heavy(er) car made of good material and quality assembly if it means I can enjoy this car for the next few decades and it will hold up to a few laps around the track.
However,
I believe GM when they say they have tried their best to cut weight everywhere they can and still maintain safety and quality standards at a reasonable price.
If guys want a radically lighter car, sacrifices will need to be made, to all three. Safety, realiability and affordability.
Not only during its warrenty period but also beyond that. I intend to own my camaro for as long as I can, and like most of us, probably throwing in some extra power and more than a few track days. If I can manage a half million kilometers on it as well, I will use them all up. I will take a heavy(er) car made of good material and quality assembly if it means I can enjoy this car for the next few decades and it will hold up to a few laps around the track.
10-12-2008, 06:26 PM
#39
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I totally agree. A few weeks ago I posted a list of the weight of cars in the Camaro's class and as many may already know it is about the same weight as the other cars in class. It is lighter than many and with the exception of the mustang it is no more than 100lbs heavier than anything I was able to find. As an example BMW spent a fortune to try and make the weight of the new M3 as light as possible. It weighs in at 3735lbs, this is for a 68k car that is a low production model with the use of exotic materials in the block and use of carbon fiber in the body panels. Heck I was reading the review of the new Acura TL and it will weigh 3900lbs, that is a V6 FWD car!
These cars are what Chevy wants the Camaro to compete with. If the Camaro's weight doesn't bother you, that's great. But to say that it weighs no more - or even less - than it's competitors, is simply NOT true.
10-12-2008, 06:35 PM
#40
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10-12-2008, 07:37 PM
#41
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I mostly agree. But on the issue of the LS3, I do think that they could do a hotter version of it with near 500HP, although it would probably have some more NVH and worse fuel economy. That extra displacement gets you a good deal more torque, but the LS3's that are modded slightly put out nearly as much power as a stock LS7. The torque is not nearly the same, and the difference becomes substantial again if you mod the LS7.
I really think a better answer than an LS3 or a deconted LS7 would be a performance version of the L92. The guys have been putting up some serious numbers playing around with the VVT and upgrading the cam.
I really think a better answer than an LS3 or a deconted LS7 would be a performance version of the L92. The guys have been putting up some serious numbers playing around with the VVT and upgrading the cam.
The LS3 has NO CHANCE of making anything near 475hp let alone 500hp and be emissions compliant for a factory engine.
Ask yourself why GM had to CNC port the current LS3 head and add .8L and build the engine by hand to get 505 emissions legal hp?
10-12-2008, 07:42 PM
#42
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Superchargers let little engines make big power. And those little engines can get better mileage than a big engine making the same power.
But when your comparing 2 engines of roughly the same displacment and same design. I.E. a blown 6.2 LSx vs a NA 7.0 LSx, the blown engine is going to suck on the comparative mileage. If we were comparing the LSA vs the Dodge Viper 8.3 V10, then yeah the FI guys can make a case for efficiency.
10-12-2008, 07:48 PM
#43
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OK bottom line.
If GM built a 475hp 7.0 Z/28 with titanium exhaust(like the Z06), tubular steel manifolds(like the Z06), lightweight aluminum frame seats, lightweight forged wheels and got the weight down by 70lbs to 3790.
Would people buy it for $36K MSRP?
I WOULD.
If GM built a 475hp 7.0 Z/28 with titanium exhaust(like the Z06), tubular steel manifolds(like the Z06), lightweight aluminum frame seats, lightweight forged wheels and got the weight down by 70lbs to 3790.
Would people buy it for $36K MSRP?
I WOULD.
10-12-2008, 09:03 PM
#44
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Camaro's direct competitor is the Mustang. Model for model, Camaro outweighs it by about 350 pounds. Also, according to the Camaro Team, aspirationally, they'd like the Camaro to get cross-shopped by G37 (3616 pounds) and 328i (3351 pounds) intenders. And again, according to the Camaro Team - they'd also like to draw some interest from those looking into the the Civic Si (2895 pounds).
These cars are what Chevy wants the Camaro to compete with. If the Camaro's weight doesn't bother you, that's great. But to say that it weighs no more - or even less - than it's competitors, is simply NOT true.
These cars are what Chevy wants the Camaro to compete with. If the Camaro's weight doesn't bother you, that's great. But to say that it weighs no more - or even less - than it's competitors, is simply NOT true.
10-12-2008, 10:59 PM
#45
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I agree that the folks you identified would buy a version you are describing. The problem is GM is not trying to make a niche product. They want to sell more than 100,000 Camaro's per year and they want to make a substantial margin on every car. The demographic you describe is a very small number of people and trying to make a car for such a small demographic would take away from their ability to make the mass produced Camaro the hit that it must be for their survival. I just saw a post on Corvette Forum from a dealer in California. He is selling a brand new 2008 Corvette 1LT, Z51 with NPP for $38,740. Knowing that this is what Corvettes are selling for explain to me how a specialty Camaro like the one you have described would make sense. Give me the choice between the stripped down 36k 475hp Camaro or a 436hp Corvette for 2k more and I will be driving a Corvette without a doubt.
Do you think the Corvette division thinks having a top-dog ZR1 has no sales impact on base-model vettes?
Do you think the Camaro division plans of making as much profit on each SS as they do the base model V6?
The point is that simple trim-level-only, or for that matter, model-level-only advertising just doesn't exist in a vaccum. Why is the Corvette a Chevy and not it's own make?... because the Vette's in Car and Driver sell Chevy cobalts and Malibus in the SAME way that Mustangs sell Taurus SHO's... People love winners, and will do anything to be like them. Basic advertising principles.
If it DIDn't work that way companies wouldn't model names, interiors, and exterior lines to "mesh" with very expensive flag ship models that typically make very little cash for the manudfacturer (economies of scale... unless you clear $100,000 profit on each vette, you sure as hell arn't gonna clear more profit in that product line than a Malibu line with massively more sales). flagships work, that's why this is a valid topic.
Some feel the SS was "enough", much like some feel the Vettes ZO6 was "enough". Raise the bar with a low-production product and attract attention.
I think a 427 may be excessive, focusing on weight-loss for the SS would be cooler IMO, but it's really a matter of cost. You can make a flag ship bad *** multiple ways (i.e. Porsche makes a light-weight GT3 with LESS hp than the GT2 but it's top dog due to weight loss) but like you said, an aluminum frame an't cheap. Vetts, Lotus, Jaguar... these are not cheap aluminum-frame cars.
Maybe GM will acquire Chrysler, kill the viper and use that fancy magnesium casting for Camaro frames.
