Sporty coupe's come back & other future happenings

guionM · 06-15-2002, 11:30 AM

As I'm sure that anyone here who keeps track of what's going on in the industry will tell you, there is alot of things going on. There seems to have been a rediscovery of the automobile & suddenly everyone is in a race to bring out new models, but with a twist.

Cars like the Thunderbird, PT Cruizer, & Beetle may make it seem like the retro style is in, but the Cadillac CTS and Ford Focus are selling quickly as well. Seems the public still wants cars, but wants style and well made cars as well... and performance!

Cars are without a doubt quicker today than they have ever been, with even economy cars running as fast as many ledgendary muscle cars of the 1960's. But even that will be eclipsed soon. Damiler-Chrysler will soon produce a Neon that will run 0-60 well under 6 seconds & a 345hp RWD sedan, Cadillac's CTS will soon boast Corvette's LS1 with at least 400 horsepower, Lincoln will have a supercharged V8 also with 400 hp, and GM is known to be working on a class of rear-drive sedans and coupes known internally as the "mid-lux" chassis, which no doubt will be competitive with Chrysler's rear-drive mid-price LHX derivitives. Ford's RWD program (previously described as cancelled) is simply on hold till finances improve, though it currently appears that instead of a new chassis, it will be a variation of Lincoln's LS car, and instead of a 2004 introduction, it may be a year or two later.

But, one of the areas that is showing shocking activity (an area seemingly all but given up for dead not long ago) is the mid-price sporty coupe market. Ford Mustang's strong sales show that if done right, it is still a viable market, and competition is comming in droves.

Nissan brings back their 350Z soon, price? under $30,000. Mazda's next rotary RX coupe will be a 4 passenger sub $30,000 car. Even Infinity, normally a luxury carline, will be bringing over a version of the Skyline with V6 power for about $30,000.

But, so you don't think it's only Japan getting involved, Daimler-Chrysler recently approved a RWD sports coupe based on the upcomming LHX chassis to be called Charger. It's starting price will be in the $25,000 range. Pontiac's imported, but still GM made GTO will come in around 30 grand as well. And finally, the worse kept secret in the industry, the market leading Ford Mustang will be all new for it's 40th anniversairy as a 2004 model Possible introduction? Fall of next year!

That leaves the question of Camaro.

I think along with RP, no one in GM wants Camaro to return more than Bob Lutz & Chevy's General Manager (can't think of his name at the moment, but he's also all but said Chevy was going to get a version of "mid-lux" as well). Make no mistake about it. It seems the entire Chevrolet Motor Division WANT'S Camaro!!

However, GM's top priority is to sucessfully get the big hitters out. This includes next years Grand Prix & Malibu, the next Regal & the Cavilier/Sunfire (currently GM's biggest selling car), the new Grand Am in less than 2 years (Pontiac's current best seller), and finally GM's RWD "mid-lux" chassis. All with much higher volume and potential profit than a low priced, low volume sports coupe.

Just to show you how full General Motors plate is at the moment, all of this and more (GM intends to replace or redesign all their carslines) is going to happen within the next 3 1/2 years!

To make sure it all happens without a hitch, GM hired the best product person they could find, Bob Lutz. Most all of GM's programs were set before he arrived there, however, cars developed completely under his direction won't appear before the 2006 model year.

Cadillac is in the middle of a tremendous remake, Buick is NEXT, Pontiac's remake is more of a fine tune, & Chevrolet (believe it or not) will have AT LEAST 1 new car in their showroom for at least the next 4-5 years, starting next year.

Finally, the word I'm getting is that barring a national ressession or further collaspse of the sporty coupe market, bank on Camaro comming back, just not right away.

There IS alot of really good things happening in the industry, especially at GM. The problem is they're late to the party, but I think they're going to make a big splash.

IZ28 · 06-15-2002, 05:03 PM

I would bet on them making the best 1 as always when they decide to REALLY compete. How do you find all these things out?? It sounds like you work for GM or something LOL. If I was working on this stuff though I'd get the Camaro (and maybe Firebird) out around the same time as the new M*****g, GTO, Charger, and anything else thats gonna be put out in that market instead of taking years and getting there a while later.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 15, 2002).]

stars1010 · 06-15-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by guionM:

There IS alot of really good things happening in the industry, especially at GM. The problem is they're late to the party, but I think they're going to make a big splash.

Who cool comes to a party first anyway? I always show up a bit late and with style.

I have faith GM will show up, do the same and blow everyone out of the water with some badass products. Good times are on the way!

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Stefan

1995 3.4L Camaro, Mystic Metallic Green, M5, 3.23’s, T-tops, every option except the V8

Ignore the future mods on my site, my plans have changed.
See my car here:
http://members.tripod.com/stars101010/

Best time: 10.7 @ 63mph in the 1/8 mile

Aeromaks · 06-15-2002, 06:02 PM

This is perhpas one of the most well put together posts.

Basicly every logical person's post on GM, but all put together, basicly what Red Planet is trying to tell us.

For now boys, we have nothing really that bad to worry about, besides, in cobra example, how many cobras do you really see?

and if you dont want to buy a new car? why dont you make your car nicer with $5k?

That is my plan. The day a new blown cobra will beat me on the street (as in me finally seeing one in person), will be a sign for more mods, or add a nice Blower on it. There is no replacement for Displacement.

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93 Patriot Red Z28 - A4, 3.23 Gears
*Mods*: Hooker Super Competition Catback, Holley 58MM Throttle Body, Holley Powershot Filter, 160* Thermostat, A. Anderson Programming Chip, Aeromaks Cold Air Intake System

Audio: JVC KDSH77 HU, Infiniti Kappa 6.5"
Max's Patriot Red 93 Z

Time: 14.052@98.23, 2.193 60', Street Tires, Hot & Humid

guionM · 06-15-2002, 09:42 PM

One little item, those blown Cobras came from the factory that way, while we have to add things to keep up with them, thats what makes Cobra such a good idea.

But let's not feel toooo badly about it. Just think of those poor turkeys that paid $50,000++ for a limited production Cobra R that can't outrun this 32 grand Cobra that anyone can walk into the showroom & buy.

Chuck! · 06-15-2002, 11:54 PM

Are there any production numbers on the CTS as of yet?

1fastdog · 06-16-2002, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by guionM:

I think along with RP, no one in GM wants Camaro to return more than Bob Lutz & Chevy's General Manager (can't think of his name at the moment, but he's also all but said Chevy was going to get a version of "mid-lux" as well). Make no mistake about it. It seems the entire Chevrolet Motor Division WANT'S Camaro!!

Kurt L. Ritter

Z28Wilson · 06-16-2002, 02:48 AM

Camaro coming back is going to be much like it originally was...Chevy gave themselves 3 years to pick apart the Mustang, find its flaws, and try to offer something better. We probably will see a repeat of that in a few years.

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Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

DropTop91 · 06-17-2002, 01:08 PM

Hmmm... just an observation but anybody else see some similarities...

First mustang - 1964 model year (well 64 1/2) and the Camaro - 1967

Mustang redesign - ~2004 and the Camaro - 2007??

Is there going to be a 40th anniversary/rebirth Camaro coming???

Ken S · 06-17-2002, 08:39 PM

a few years wait for a new camaro/firebird maybe a good thing, as long as they spend those few years wisely..

So if GM actually takes the time to engineer a great fast car and figure out how to put it together perfectly too...and also put together a real marketing plan.. things will look very good for the future..

looking at the "superrice" comin on the horizon of the near future, the next gen camaro/firebird should do at least solid mid 12's stock with a well designed IRS in the back, and still cost about $20k to continue running past the expensive competition with the middle finger raised.

Also, bring the Camaro name into roadracing with GM bringing factory support. But i guess thats a pipe dream.

Snorman · 06-17-2002, 10:32 PM

This is all good news.
~$721 out of each GM car and truck sold goes to legacy expenses (pension plans, retirement, health care for retired workers). This is nearly $10 billion per year.
GM needs to make good things happen and sell cars to remain viable.
S.

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'95 GT...something wicked, this way comes...

[This message has been edited by Snorman (edited June 18, 2002).]

Z28Wilson · 06-17-2002, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken S:
and still cost about $20k to continue running past the expensive competition with the middle finger raised.

Sorry but the days of the ~$23k Z28 are about to end. You simply can't expect an all-new car with a sophisticated chassis to come in at that price 5 or 6 years from now. Wherever the competition is priced (Mustang) is about where the Camaro will be.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

LT1runner · 06-18-2002, 09:28 AM

Someone said there is no replacement for displacement. Wrong again. Of course there is. It's called a turbo. Blown apps are great too. I'd hate to leave out those nitrous burners. You may have a 6.0 or 6.1 LS1 (in the futur) and then get tapped by a pullied blown cobra(4.6). I hate it too, but unless GM drops some kind of forced induced SS, I don't think it'll be faster than up to date cobras.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a chevy guy, but have you ever gone to like a truck shoot out and watch 454 SS trucks race the lightnings. It's horrible. Some 454's are bad@$$. That same 454 is lopping and rumbling all over the place. Just to race a pullied, chipped, and a few mods lightning.

What are the goals? If it's beat ford than it'll be time to step up and put some forced air down the pipe. If it's to beat GT's then we'll stop there, but always know that we'll have to drop that turbo or blower on ourselves. Which I don't have a problem with. Somewhere someone said something like:

We've looked at ourselves and have been found wanting.

I guess in the end we're all a pully away from being beat.

------------------
Chris-95Z28M6-Vortech 355 @15PSI
Member of MTFBA (Middle Tennessee F-Body Association)

90 TSi (AWD) T0-4 turbo@12psi(unknown), Bored .040, 2G pistons, Archer Header, Turbonetics Wgate, 2nd Gen MAS, 550cc Inj., APEXi AFC(old style), !Boost solenoid, 2.5" Down pipe, 3" Flex, 3"Exhaust, 3"Ractive Turbo Muffler, Boost Gauge, A/F gauge, Manual Boost controller, Home Depot Intake, ECU caps
Wants to be green'd

92 Laser RS(AWD) TRE Big16G Ported & 10degree clip Turbo, TRE 2G ported Exh Mani., TRE 2G ported O2 housing, 2nd Gen MAS, 550cc Inj., !Boost solenoid, 2.5" Down pipe, 3" Flex, 3"Exhaust, 3"Ractive Turbo Muffler, Boost Gauge, Modded A/F gauge, JoeP Manual Boost controller, Dejon Tool Intake, ECU caps,
But this DSM is drinking milk

BOOST, ADD FUEL!

Chuck! · 06-18-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LT1runner:
Don't get me wrong. I'm a chevy guy, but have you ever gone to like a truck shoot out and watch 454 SS trucks race the lightnings. It's horrible. Some 454's are bad@$$. That same 454 is lopping and rumbling all over the place. Just to race a pullied, chipped, and a few mods lightning.

This is because GM, like every other TBI car/truck, pissed it down their leg from the factory. 2" tbi bores are OK for 350s and modded 305s, but not 454s. Futher the heads, cam and intake manifold were all fairly restrictive, not to mention the exhaust. Yea it created massive torque, but torque only gets you so far.

Id love to see a 454 Stealth Ram or LT1 intake. Not that Im against using TBI, but the only viable solution is the Holley 4bbl TBI which is upwards of $900. You can have a trick MPFI for that price.

So yes, there is a replacement for displacement in technology, but when you use displacement and technology together, its a beautiful thing.

LT1runner · 06-19-2002, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chuck!:
So yes, there is a replacement for displacement in technology, but when you use displacement and technology together, its a beautiful thing.

This, noone can dispute. Leap frog ford, and give us a turbo fbody.

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Chris-95Z28M6-Vortech 355 @15PSI
Member of MTFBA (Middle Tennessee F-Body Association)

90 TSi (AWD) TRE Big16G@20psi Ported & 10degree clip Turbo, TRE 2G ported Exh Mani., TRE 2G ported O2 housing, RRE turbo outlet pipe, FMIC L28"xH10"xW3.5", Bored .040, 2G pistons, 2nd Gen MAS, 550cc Inj., APEXi S-AFC(old style), !Boost solenoid, !EGR, 2.5" Down pipe, 3" Flex, 3"Exhaust, 3"Ractive Turbo Muffler, Boost Gauge, A/F gauge, JoeP Boost controller, Dejon Tool Intake, Dual Fiction Clutch, Locked Diff.
Wants to be green'd

92 Laser RS(AWD) Taking back to stock (selling soon)

BOOST, ADD FUEL!