Possible GTO-like engine situation?

[skorpion317]

I'm planning on buying the 5th gen shortly after it comes out, but I'm a little worried that a similar engine situation with the first-year GTOs may occur. I'm referring to the '04 GTOs having the LS1, and the '05s got the LS2. If the 5th gen switches to Gen V motors a year or two after release, I'm going to be a little disappointed. Any of the "winky club" want to provide some insight on this?

[scaz]

LS1 engines ran better than the LS2. I believe that is why they how have the LS3s. Engines size and models change all the time based on demand. I was surprised with the Chevy trucks went from a 5.7 to the 5.3. There is only one constant thing in the universe and that is change. If you want it. Go and get it and don't look back. If you are always going to want the next big thing then a lease might not be a bad option for you. I would be very suprised to see a bigger engine than the 6.2 in the Camaro ever. They might add forced air, but you can always get something bigger, better, and cheaper else where.

[Bob Cosby]

Originally Posted by scaz

LS1 engines ran better than the LS2.

Can you expound on this a little bit, please?

Thanks.

[HAZ-Matt]

My 'expoundation' is that the LS2 ran better since it was like a 2001 LS6 heads and valvetrain wise with increased displacement.

[notgetleft]

Originally Posted by Bob Cosby

Can you expound on this a little bit, please?

Thanks.

I don't know what he's getting at exactly, but i can verify that good/better running LS1s can outrun the lesser of the LS2 cars, which is the same for any car really.

Even though my car is one of the freak among freaks, i wouldn't go so far as to make a blanket statement that all LS1 GTos run like mine. I would say that Ls2 GTOs do not run as well as the 50hp paper advantage implies. In general i think they only dyno 30hp or so better to the wheels, and track mph in general only seems to be 2-3mph better on average. Also don't forget that the LS2 cars ALL have horrendous TQ managment form the factory, even the 6 speeds. This is a big factor in their track times. all GTOs are sesnitive to heat soak via the IAT spark correction table, but LS2 cars are that much worse then the LS1 cars too.

Also, FWIW, Ls2 cars are prone to more problems then the LS1. Some seem to eat oil a lot worse then any Ls1/LS6 did. The electronic throttle pedal in them is also complete junk, WAY too many posts on ls1gto about "what does reduced performance mode" mean.

To the OP, there will always be something 'better' down the road. It depends on how much value you put on having what you want *now* as opposed to having something maybe a little better later. I bought my 04 late in the year when i already knew about all the changes for the 05, and i have never regretted it at all.

For example, maybe the 2011/12 camaro will have a few more HP. But maybe it will also have a new ECM that's not cracked so you won't be able to get any tuning done, nor will you be able to remove TQ management. That's what happened to the LS2 GTO folks for teh first year or more (and the C6 vette), and it could easily happen again.

[BitchinCamaro]

More likely you will see a '93 Camaro situation. In '94 the Camaro got an electronically controlled auto, stronger manual, new ECM, went from speed density to MAF, revised fuel rail, and I am sure plenty of other things. None of these made the car a lot better, but it means there are a lot of LT1 mods that don't work on the '93. There is a similar list of changes for the 98 to 99 and up LS1 cars, 82-83 Camaro, 67 to 68 to 69 Camaros.

[christianjax]

I can see what the OP is saying. I will be pissed if I fork over $35-$40k for the new convertible with whatever V8 is available, then the next year they bump the base V8 by 50hp. (Like they did to the GTO) AND the SSR.

[flowmotion]

Originally Posted by christianjax

I can see what the OP is saying. I will be pissed if I fork over $35-$40k for the new convertible with whatever V8 is available, then the next year they bump the base V8 by 50hp. (Like they did to the GTO) AND the SSR.

GTO and SSR kinda got knocked in the reviews (more so the latter). I kinda doubt anyone is going to complain about "only" 400HP, especially with a top dog car on the horizon. It sounds like GM learned the lesson.

[guionM]

Originally Posted by skorpion317

I'm planning on buying the 5th gen shortly after it comes out, but I'm a little worried that a similar engine situation with the first-year GTOs may occur. I'm referring to the '04 GTOs having the LS1, and the '05s got the LS2. If the 5th gen switches to Gen V motors a year or two after release, I'm going to be a little disappointed. Any of the "winky club" want to provide some insight on this?

Get the car you want, and stop worrying about things like that.

If you are concerned about a later model having a little more power a couple of years after you buy your model, then your're buying a car for the wrong reason if not the wrong car.

The 2004 GTOs were excellent cars, and actually sold in far greater numbers than subsequent years due to GM getting a handle on dealer scalping and adding GTO to incentives starting in September (sales jumped from 6-900 to over 2000 per month).

What made later GTOs better IMO, was NOT the LS2 (which got inferior mileage than the LS1, with only slight gains in performance), but the vast array of improvements such as better and bigger brakes, a better rear facia design with duals that exit on both sides (the 2004 GTo's system was also dual...though exiting on one side... and had a much better sound), and the purely visual options of hood scoops and body add-ons.

As a package, the 2004 GTO was a in some ways better than the 2005. But no one would be saying that if the only difference was just the LS2.

[Silverado C-10]

The GTO was a rebadged car.

The Camaro is "all new." I'd be very surprised to see a V-8 engine "change" during the model run. It's already rumored to have mega horse power and the Z28 coming a year later with even more ponies. I could see it tuned or programmed better after the first year or two? This car is being very well thought out.

What I *could* see happening is the choice of V-6's getting swapped around...

[99SilverSS]

I would think the Camaro will follow the engine lines of the base Corvette as it has done in the past. So if the base Vette gets an engine change after the LS3 I would think the Camaro would follow suit. There should be some warning like when the Vette went up to LT1 and then LS1 in '92 and '97 and the Camaro followed soon after in '93 and '98 respectively.

[jg95z28]

Keep in mind people, the 350cid small block V8 was originally exclusively available only in the Camaro (1967 "SS") while other engine options were available across the Chevy line-up. This is not to say the same thing will happen in 2010, but there's no saying that it won't happen.

[HAZ-Matt]

Yeah the poor Corvette had to make do with the venerable 327 for a little while, even though the Camaro got the 350.

Don't think this will happen in the future though. The economies seem such that it is likely to be largely the same engine.

[Bob Cosby]

Originally Posted by notgetleft

I don't know what he's getting at exactly, but i can verify that good/better running LS1s can outrun the lesser of the LS2 cars, which is the same for any car really.

If you're referring to a comparison between an LS1 F-body and an LS2 GTO (don't know of any other "lesser" car), then I'll agree they are close. But that's not a real good comparison, as they are two different motors in two different cars. What I was asking is how does and LS1 (the motor) run better than an LS2 (the motor)? The only performance vehicle that both motors have been in (in the US) are the GTO and the Vette. LS2 GTOs are measurably quicker than LS1 GTOs. Ditto the Vette.

Even though my car is one of the freak among freaks, i wouldn't go so far as to make a blanket statement that all LS1 GTos run like mine. I would say that Ls2 GTOs do not run as well as the 50hp paper advantage implies. In general i think they only dyno 30hp or so better to the wheels, and track mph in general only seems to be 2-3mph better on average. Also don't forget that the LS2 cars ALL have horrendous TQ managment form the factory, even the 6 speeds. This is a big factor in their track times. all GTOs are sesnitive to heat soak via the IAT spark correction table, but LS2 cars are that much worse then the LS1 cars too.

First, I don't believe in "factory freaks". Freak drivers, freak tracks, freak weather conditions, all those freaks combining on freak days....sure. Factory freaks? Nope.

Second, I think a good average RWHP difference is ~40 RWHP (305 to 345).

Finally, TQ management is specific to a year of car, and cannot be used to justify that an "LS1 engines run better than LS2 engines".

Also, FWIW, Ls2 cars are prone to more problems then the LS1. Some seem to eat oil a lot worse then any Ls1/LS6 did. The electronic throttle pedal in them is also complete junk, WAY too many posts on ls1gto about "what does reduced performance mode" mean.

Ok, I'll take your word for all of that. Does that explain how/why an LS1 engine runs better than an LS2?

I guess I'll have to disagree, and if given the chance, I'd gladly take an LS2 over an LS1 - everything else being equal.

[TrickStang37]

Originally Posted by Bob Cosby

First, I don't believe in "factory freaks". Freak drivers, freak tracks, freak weather conditions, all those freaks combining on freak days....sure. Factory freaks? Nope.

I agree with that 100%. That, and "freak" (incorrect/manipulated) dyno's.