Can anyone give me a good reason,.......

........a believable business plan for bringing back the Chevelle?? :confused:

My only thoughts on this are weak at best........i.e. a Chevy GTO counterpart.......or because we can't even say Camaro for another 30 months or so???

Which nameplate has more recognition in the general public?

Honestly, doesn't GM already have enough other models that would leach sales from a sports sedan? :confused:

Especially with the new SC'd SS's from the MC and the Impala...and the Bonnevile GXP...and not withstanding the other rumored V8 RWD sedans in the pipline.......?????

I don't mean to step on any toes here.....I simply can't make a business plan for a Chevelle..................:confused: :confused:

Originally posted by Doug Harden
........a believable business plan for bringing back the Chevelle?? :confused:

My only thoughts on this are weak at best........i.e. a Chevy GTO counterpart.......or because we can't even say Camaro for another 30 months or so???

Which nameplate has more recognition in the general public?

Honestly, doesn't GM already have enough other models that would leach sales from a sports sedan? :confused: Especially witht the new SC'd SS's from the MC and the Impala......and not withstanding the rumored V8 RWD sedans in the pipine.......?????

I don't mean to step on any toes here.....I simply can't make a business plan for a Chevelle..................:confused: :confused:

Assuming that Chevelle would be a Coupe, like GTO... and Monte Carlo does in fact go RWD, I don't really see how/why they'd bring it back... maybe I am missing something though.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Assuming that Chevelle would be a Coupe, like GTO... and Monte Carlo does in fact go RWD, I don't really see how/why they'd bring it back... maybe I am missing something though.

Unless a Chevelle would exist as a replacement for the Monte Carlo.

Originally posted by jrp4uc
Unless a Chevelle would exist as a replacement for the Monte Carlo.

Yes, agreed... but we have been hearing that MC and Impala will be going RWD/V8 in the near future, and they used the MC name specifically, so that's why I assume MC will continue... but that could change.

Just to refresh everyone's memory, I originally posted this on 10-14-02...
Concept Buick may come out by 2006

By Jim Mateja (Chicago Tribune)

Auto Horizon, the Automotive Intelligence Internet newsletter, says the concept Buick (for now dubbed Centurion) shown by General Motors at a recent meeting in Pebble Beach and destined for next year's auto-show circuit, may become reality in 2006 as a vehicle aimed at youth and positioned below the current Rendezvous.

(Others, however, such as Global Insider, an industry newsletter out of Detroit, says Centurion reflects the styling cues of the next generation Rendezvous for '06 or '07.)

Also, the Malibu Maxx hatchback shown at Pebble Beach is based on the same Epsilon platform that will be shared by the '04 Chevy Malibu and '05 Pontiac Grand Am sedans, plus an upcoming Saturn Transponder hybrid featuring a 3.2-liter V6 gasonline engine teamed with two electric motors to deliver a combined 250 horsepower and 35 miles-per-gallon fuel economy.

The supercharged Pontoac G6 concept sedan shown at Pebble Beach is said to hint at the styling of the '04 Pontiac Grand Prix and redesigned '05 Grand Am, which comes out as a sedan first followed in '06 by coupe and convertible.

The new Grand Am is expected to have a supercharged 3.2-liter V6 and optional all-wheel-drive.

We've reported that Chevy wants to bring back a Chevelle SS. Auto Horizon says that '06 could be the date and that it might be joined by a return of the El Camino car/truck as well as a revived Camaro.
...

Making a Chevrolet version of the next gen GTO isn't that far fetched of an idea. However as others have pointed out why have both a RWD Monte Carlo and Chevelle SS? Logistically it doesn't sound practical... however, keep in mind this is the same company that is giving us the "SSR" and presumably "Belair."

Perhaps the Chevelle SS will return as a limited run "speciality" car much like those. Not completely out of the question and certainly inline with recent trends from the Bowtie boys.

Im afraid too much performance out of GM will choke our chances for the F5.

Thats weird saying that.

We know GM can't call the performance coupe they are making Camaro (at least for now) so what would you call it untill then?

Originally posted by jg95z28
Making a Chevrolet version of the next gen GTO isn't that far fetched of an idea. Perhaps the Chevelle SS will return as a limited run "speciality" car much like those. Not completely out of the question and certainly inline with recent trends from the Bowtie boys.

You would only have to assume that by pure logic Monte Carlo and Impala will use the exact same chassis's , motors ect. as the by then all new GTO which will most likely be paired with a Grand Prix as the 4 door on the pontiac side . This has been brought up quite a bit lately ....I just can't see no matter how you look at it where a Chevelle would fit into that anywhere .....unless the very recognizable and somewhat popular Monte Carlo name will get changed to Chevelle in 06 . Not unless they pull the Pontiac thing ( firebird/Trans Am ) and use Monte for the lower end cars and Chevelle for the performace versions . Anythings possible I guess .

Call it what you want. I'd like a Camaro very much. However a properly styled (subtly muscular without being a cartoon) Chevelle would be fine so long as it doesn't become incredibly overweight and incredibly expensive. It must also have a modern chassis, a manual trans and plenty of power.

If those criteria can be met (and I think they would) then I'm sorry to say that this whole Camaro thing would be a distant, unpleasant memory for me. I mean all we're really after here is an affordable, reasonably sized, RWD, V8 coupe right? If we wanted just the Camaro name we wouldn't care what that name was on. If we can't have a Camaro then bring on the Chevelle!

Now where did I put my Nomex underwear? :D

Please keep in mind that I do in fact want a new Camaro. Especially one maybe about 7/8 size of the 4th gen. This post is simply a "What if we don't get one?".

Why does alot of people here think Camaro can't exist if there is another RWD V8 car around? :confused:

Part 1
Monte Carlo has existed next to Camaro. Monte Carlo has totally different demographics as Camaro as Grand Prix has to Firebird, and both have existed side by side for years.

For those of you who can't seem to grip this, check these out:
Monte Carlo: http://media.gm.com/division/chevrolet/products/archive_prod_info/97chevy/monte/demo.htm
Camaro: http://media.gm.com/division/chevrolet/products/archive_prod_info/97chevy/camaro/demo.htm

Part 2
Any RWD coupe that is NOT a small, space challenged 4 seater, does not infrenge on Camaro's buyers. A roomy RWD coupe would be a replacement for the existing Monte Carlo/ Grand Prix. This includes a Chevelle SS, should a version of it be made off the new Monte Carlo line.

Saying that simply because a car has RWD, a V8 and is a coupe does not mean they are competetors to a Camaro. Minivans have 4 tires, bucket seats, and tachometers. Do they infrenge on Camaro's demographics?

Part 3
The RWD coupes GM is planning replaces the Grand Prix, and the existing Monte Carlo. The Camaro is an entirely different ballgame.

Now that that's been settled, what if....
The 2006 Monte Carlo & Impala were FWD V8s, and GM brought companion cars (an Impala SS and a Chevelle SS) that were RWD & V8s as well?

No new news, but just throwing out a far fetched thought.

The MC and the Camaro are apples and oranges as they are today...this ain't 1975...or even 1985.

Why in the world would GM replace the successful MC nameplate with the Chevelle???

What would a Chevelle offer that a V8, RWD Impala / MC will not?

Where does a Chevelle fit in Chevy's lineup? Especially when the Impala and MC get their upgrades to more power and possibly RWD.

The Mustang's sales levels have much to do with the fact that they are not canabalized by other Ford offerings....forgetting the V8, RWD....how many other 2 door sedans does Ford offer??

I personally don't see a need for, or a place in the Chevy lineup for a new Chevelle.......not if I also want a new Camaro that is.......

Why can't the chevelle be part of Chevy's new lineup along with the MC and Impala?It would make the lineup more diverse to me,more to choose from.Chevy only has the MC,Impala,Cavaler,Malibu and the Metro.Not really a lot to choose from if you're a chevy guy that likes cars more than trucks.Aside from the MC SS there isn't a performance sedan in their lineup....so why not?

Originally posted by Doug Harden
The MC and the Camaro are apples and oranges as they are today...this ain't 1975...or even 1985.

Why in the world would GM replace the successful MC nameplate with the Chevelle???

What would a Chevelle offer that a V8, RWD Impala / MC will not?

Where does a Chevelle fit in Chevy's lineup? Especially when the Impala and MC get their upgrades to more power and possibly RWD.

The Mustang's sales levels have much to do with the fact that they are not canabalized by other Ford offerings....forgetting the V8, RWD....how many other 2 door sedans does Ford offer??

I personally don't see a need for, or a place in the Chevy lineup for a new Chevelle.......not if I also want a new Camaro that is.......

You asked for a business case? How about this.

Chevrolet has a version of the GTO Coupe (the 2006, US made version). Pontiac's GTO is a Grand Touring car, expanding on the upcomming GTO, pricey, but alot of comfort as well as performance.

Chevrolet's coupe is divided into 2 levels. The Monte Carlo & the Chevelle SS. Monte Carlo is the high value coupe line as it is today. Because of the engineering done for Monaro's CV6, the Monte Carlo even keeps the supercharged V6 comming out this fall.

Meanwhile, the Chevelle SS becomes a version of the Monte Carlo the way mid-90s Impala SS was a version of the Caprice. It's positioned below GTO much the same way it was back in the late 60s-early 70s. Not as fancy (ie: GTO's alumunum-look interior trim vs the comparatively plain look of the new Malibu), but still with much the same performance, say an LS1 while GTO has the LS6.

The Monte Carlo- Chevelle SS would be differentated by grill, taillights, and other modest cosmetics. The difference between Pontiac's and Chevrolet's coupes would be the interior, nose & rear.

Monte Carlo would make up the bulk of GM's RWD coupe sales (and have base & S/C V6s), Chevelle SS, though minus a few cosmetics & a V8 is a Monte Carlo, & would be Chevy's Performance entry representing the mid-price version of the 3, while GTO is (for lack of a better comparison) the Cobra level car. A 4 place, pricey but worth it, comfortable, very quick GT.

This way, the Chevelle SS costs next to nothing to create. Whatever crash testing & certification needed with the V8 has already been done by Pontiac's GTO. By using the Monte Carlo as the doner car, the investment in appearence changes is as cheap as the '94-97 Impala SS changes over Caprice, and the Chevelle SS will fill in the gap between the full on GTO and the family-personal luxury coupe of the Monte Carlo. Creating the Chevelle SS (along with a returned full line Camaro) all but completes Chevrolet's link to it's historic past, for very little investment with the potential for alot of return in public intrest.

I think that would about complete the business case. :)

Where does a 120k units per year Camaro fit in there?:confused:

I just don't see it..........A link to Chevy's historic past is hardly a reason to crowd the field any more than it already is.....almost guaranteeing limited Camaro sales.

Camaro would fit much the same way it always fit in when alongside Grand Prix coupes & Monte Carlo. As a stylish, smaller sports car.

The GTP never affected Camaro's sales. Even the lightning quick Buick Grand Nationals never fazed Camaro's sales.

Simply returning the drive wheels to the rear & subsituting a V8 in place of a supercharged V6 isn't going to turn a car into a Camaro.

Camaro is lower, it has a smaller overall size, it's more "intimate" inside, and as a lighter vehicle, it would most certainly be quicker & faster than the Chevelle SS with the same engine.

Camaro is closer to a Corvette than it is to a GTO-Monte Carlo-Chevelle SS. Corvette's doing just fine, even with the $13,000 surcharge it had over the Camaro SS.

Originally posted by guionM
Camaro would fit much the same way it always fit in when alongside Grand Prix coupes & Monte Carlo. As a stylish, smaller sports car.

But it will have to also fit in the tight spot between the Impala and a new Chevelle too.........

The GTP never affected Camaro's sales. Even the lightning quick Buick Grand Nationals never fazed Camaro's sales.

Apples and oranges.....

Simply returning the drive wheels to the rear & subsituting a V8 in place of a supercharged V6 isn't going to turn a car into a Camaro.

When someone goes into a dealer and finds three or four :alert: 2+2, V8 RWD coupes or sedans to choose from.....why buy a MC instead of the other three? Why buy a Camaro instead of the other three? Why buy an Impala instead of the other three? Why Buy a Chevelle instead of the other three? How slices are there to this small piece of pie?

Camaro is lower, it has a smaller overall size, it's more "intimate" inside, and as a lighter vehicle, it would most certainly be quicker & faster than the Chevelle SS with the same engine.

So the only difference between a Camaro and a Chevelle would be ...you still won't be able to get two adults in the rear seat and it might be a tick quicker?!? Oh, and it might be a thousand or two cheaper??

Camaro is closer to a Corvette than it is to a GTO-Monte Carlo-Chevelle SS. Corvette's doing just fine, even with the $13,000 surcharge it had over the Camaro SS.

You can not compare the Corvette to anything else in Chevy's lineup....it's in a league of it's own......

Unless the 5th gen looses it's attempt at rear seating all together....it will always have to compete with other 2+2, V8, RWD cars........from inside GM and from the outside.......and if they add yet another choice with the Chevelle....the Camaro's slice of the pie gets even smaller.

Scott has beaten this into my skull......this AIN'T 1965......1975......1985...or even 1995...it's a whole new, very crowded, ball game.

Doug, it seems like you've fallen into that all V8 RWD cars compete with Camaro mentality.

As you pointed out yourself, Comparing Camaro to Monte Carlo, Grand Nationals, and Grand Prixs are apples to oranges, and that my friend, is exactly my point!

If you were to walk into a Chevy dealer a year ago, would you get confused between a Camaro, a Impala, and a Monte Carlo? Of course not (at least I hope you wouldn't)! If those same cars were RWD, would you still be confused? Again, the answer would be no way!

Why, and how :confused:, would anyone get spun out if all 3 have RWD and V8s replacing FWD & V6s. Doug, we are talking about the same cars with just the drivetrains and engines changed out. Unless Camaro became a Monte Carlo with a nose job at an identical price, there would hardly be any confused customers.

Using the same logic, again one would have to go back to the 2 closest cars in GM's line up: the sports cars Corvette & Camaro. I'm sure you know how one team felt about a particular car and was glad to see it go. I'm also certain you know the reason why.

Corvette & Camaro were not only competitors inside GM, there were in the same program. That means I can compare them. Afterall, those inside did. ;)

Originally posted by guionM
Doug, it seems like you've fallen into that all V8 RWD cars compete with Camaro mentality.

No, I fully understand the difference.....it's the average car buyer who walks into a Chevy dealership and has to choose between possibly four different cars with only slight differences in style, performance and cost.

Now add to that the cost to Chevrolet to having to build four similar cars......

As you pointed out yourself, Comparing Camaro to Monte Carlo, Grand Nationals, and Grand Prixs are apples to oranges, and that my friend, is exactly my point!

If you were to walk into a Chevy dealer a year ago, would you get confused between a Camaro, a Impala, and a Monte Carlo? Of course not (at least I hope you wouldn't)! If those same cars were RWD, would you still be confused? Again, the answer would be no way!

Why, and how :confused:, would anyone get spun out if all 3 have RWD and V8s replacing FWD & V6s. Doug, we are talking about the same cars with just the drivetrains and engines changed out. Unless Camaro became a Monte Carlo with a nose job at an identical price, there would hardly be any confused customers.

I don't think confusion is the issue at all.....it's the cost of production vs the profit / return of building four very similar cars. I don't think any manufacturer can afford that luxury in today's market.

Using the same logic, again one would have to go back to the 2 closest cars in GM's line up: the sports cars Corvette & Camaro. I'm sure you know how one team felt about a particular car and was glad to see it go. I'm also certain you know the reason why.

Corvette & Camaro were not only competitors inside GM, there were in the same program. That means I can compare them. Afterall, those inside did. ;)

And one of them died because of it........my point exactly.

Personally, I wouldn't shed any tears if Chevy transformed it's whole line up into RWDs. But how many V8 RWD Coupes can you realistically have? Won't Camaro and GTO pretty much have the whole GM RWD V8 coupe segment covered?
Especially if Camaro is earmarked for 120,000 units and a next gen, home built GTO for 80,000?

I can see room for a RWD V8 4 door sedan, like Impala , though.

Originally posted by guionM
Doug, it seems like you've fallen into that all V8 RWD cars compete with Camaro mentality.


To a large extent I have to agree with Doug.

RWD appeals first and foremost to the enthusiast. I would think that that's a much smaller market that would cannibalize on itself.

Considering that GM is going to be late to the party, they will have to come with incredible product just to be a player.

Originally posted by Doug Harden
No, I [b]fully understand the difference.....it's the average car buyer who walks into a Chevy dealership and has to choose between possibly four different cars with only slight differences in style, performance and cost.

Now add to that the cost to Chevrolet to having to build four similar cars......



I don't think [b]confusion is the issue at all.....it's the cost of production vs the profit / return of building four very similar cars. I don't think any manufacturer can afford that luxury in today's market.



And one of them died because of it........my point exactly.

In that case Doug, I suspect the choices would be easier. !st, each car has it's own name association and demographics. Let's face it, the average buyer is not going to walk into a dealership, and drive out with the most powerful version of a car. Going back to the Impala/Caprice example, a loaded Caprice not only had the same engine as Impala, but also went for the same price when loaded. Yet, both appealed to entirely different groups. As far as expense of the 2, the Impala, when you get down to it, was a trim package. Everything else was already installed on either Caprices or Police cars.

Going back to a case to produce the various Chevrolet models, I think you can agree that 1st, Impala can be dropped from this discussion since it's a sedan, leaving us a hypothetical Monte Carlo-Chevelle SS & Camaro.

Your point as I understand it is why produce these cars if they are going to be the same style, price & performance, and in the narrow confines of that, I'd have to agree with your point.

However, Camaro's lowslung, shorter, possibly hatchback design most certainly wouldn't be confused with a car that's 55" tall, seats 5 with alot of room, and has a large trunk. A car with those qualities would attract the same people like it does now. Families, people who do alot of long distance driving, & anyone who want's something sporty, but needs the space. Wouldn't you agree that Camaro isn't in that catagory, and it's buyers don't fall into that group?

The tougher case is for a Chevelle SS with a Monte Carlo in the room. As a separate car, it simply can't happen. But if I would make a business case for it, I would reach directly to the 94-97 Impala SS playbook, and base it on the Monte Carlo. Impala SS did extremely well, and made GM a pretty penny the was the Camaro SS has.

Taking a step down, a RWD Monte Carlo would be an extremely easy case to make, being that it's already in production & has a base of customers, and would serve as a more basic & genaric GTO.

It's safe to believe that Monte Carlo & Camaro will not look the same or be anywhere near each other stylewise, and therefore wouldn't confuse anyone. No matter how much they wanted to be. :)

poSSum, Thunderbird sold almost 80,000 cars it's last year 1997. Low end BMWs outsell their higher performance versions. Every Japaneese luxury brand jumped on the RWD bandwagon (except Acura). RWD has a stigma of being the realm of luxuorius, well balenced cars. RWD appeals to enthusiast (though that wouldn't explain the explosion of the FWD racer crowd), but in SALES RWD is more the domain of quality by association. Cadillac didn't go RWD to appeal to enthusiasts, and neither did Chrysler.

Hot RWD cars DO NOT make up the bulk or majority of any car line. They are the halo cars for the line they are based on. There are rare times it happens the opposite way, but you have to look at the carline. Camaros are sports cars, so the percentage of hot versions are going to be higher than say the Monte Carlo.

Badging the "sporty" Monte Carlo "Chevelle SS" and calling it a business plan strikes me as agreeing with Doug. :)

I appreciate what you are saying about RWD and its allure .... we may just define "enthusiast" differently. Also, our perception, U.S.A. vs. Canada, and probably more significantly, California vs. Manitoba, will be very different. That's part of what makes this forum so interesting.

Originally posted by guionM

Using the same logic, again one would have to go back to the 2 closest cars in GM's line up: the sports cars Corvette & Camaro. I'm sure you know how one team felt about a particular car and was glad to see it go. I'm also certain you know the reason why.

Corvette & Camaro were not only competitors inside GM, there were in the same program. That means I can compare them. Afterall, those inside did. ;)

I would like to hear more about this little story.... if you could tell us more.

Originally posted by poSSum
Badging the "sporty" Monte Carlo "Chevelle SS" and calling it a business plan strikes me as agreeing with Doug. :)

I appreciate what you are saying about RWD and its allure .... we may just define "enthusiast" differently. Also, our perception, U.S.A. vs. Canada, and probably more significantly, California vs. Manitoba, will be very different. That's part of what makes this forum so interesting.

In a way you and Doug are very right! There is no way to justify a separate car just to wear the name Chevelle SS, unless it's heavily based on a Monte Carlo.

But if being challenged to make a case to bring back the car name, and to keep it as separate from Monte Carlo as possible (even if both has an SS version) it would be a matter of engines, front end, and taillights. That would be the only way to both make it profitable, give it a separate identity, and place it in it's historical position.

This forum is one of the best...why I virtually live here every morning (in between working ;))

Might I also add this thought... although the "original" Chevelles and GTOs were both based on the A-body chassis, there's nothing saying that the "new" Chevelle SS has to be a sister car of the GTO.

Don't forget... Chevelles also came with four-doors.... ;)

You can see where I'm going with this, correct?

Pop-over to chevrolet.com and the "SS" pop-up window shows first an early 70's Chevelle SS, then the SS concept car. It's very likely the Chevelle SS will be a production model based on the current concept, and much like the SSR and Belair, a Chevrolet one-off custom limited production model.

That would leave the Monte Carlo as the mass-produced RWD 2+2 coupe (sister to GTO) and also Chevrolet's NASCAR mainstay.

Originally posted by jg95z28
Might I also add this thought... although the "original" Chevelles and GTOs were both based on the A-body chassis, there's nothing saying that the "new" Chevelle SS has to be a sister car of the GTO.

Don't forget... Chevelles also came with four-doors.... ;)

You can see where I'm going with this, correct?

Pop-over to chevrolet.com and the "SS" pop-up window shows first an early 70's Chevelle SS, then the SS concept car. It's very likely the Chevelle SS will be a production model based on the current concept, and much like the SSR and Belair, a Chevrolet one-off custom limited production model.

That would leave the Monte Carlo as the mass-produced RWD 2+2 coupe (sister to GTO) and also Chevrolet's NASCAR mainstay.

Though I still think the SS concept was a Corvette styling preview, why would it be a Chevelle SS preview when the new Impala is due in less than 3 years? Wouldn't it more likely be a preview of that?

J

Originally posted by guionM
Though I still think the SS concept was a Corvette styling preview, why would it be a Chevelle SS preview when the new Impala is due in less than 3 years? Wouldn't it more likely be a preview of that?

J Are you saying the SS could be the new Impala? It's possible, however Chevrolet's own website hints to a connection with Chevelle. Maybe for once they are actually giving us a "real" clue.

I honestly believe Chevrolet intends to bring back the Chevelle name. With Monte Carlo, Impala, Malibu and Camaro already in the possible mix, a limited production super-coupe may be the only way that happens. :confused:

I think that I completely agree with GuionM, as most always.

The common person, to me, generally does not care if it is RWD, FWD, whatever, as long as the quality, and reliablity are there.

I say the more the merrier, give us some options here, I think someone has said that since they are all pretty much donors of one another, they can be built for pennies and probably in the same plant.

Give us options!!! Consumers want options!!! I want to be able to go into a Chevy dealership and decide if I want the sporty fast 2+2(camaro), or the more family oriented MC or Impala depending on my personal styling preferences, or maybe I want more of a performance oriented family car, Chevelle with 4 doors and an LS1, and if I want complete 'luxary' and performance, the GTO. All are different demographics, and all would sell to that demographic. Look at BMW for example, they are about to have the 1-7 series. Now that is options.