The True #1 worst thing that hurts GM....

Is the fact that GM will not let any of their vehicles be in comparision of HP and speed of their #1 Gun Corvette..... That is what is killing all of their awsome concept cars. In a way I think that is why the Fbody is dead: 2003 cobra=390 hp
-In order for an Fbody to beat this it would be faster than the Vette.....NO WAY!

If something or someone would light a FIRE under GM's A** and get the vette into true SUPERCAR status, at least 450+ hp then some of these new cars could come true..... because if they keep up whats going on and dont get the vettes HP up then the rest of their cars wont compeat.....

Just my .02




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BLUETOPTA

1995 Trans Am covnvertible. LT1, A4, White w/white leater + blue top and accents
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-98 grand prix GT

I couldn't agree with you more. There will be no 5th Gen till this happens. Unless GM make it so it could be modded cheaply to smack a Ford. The Vette need to get into the Viper range. A 400 RWHP Vette.

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95 Formula M6, Cags, SLP shifter, Grant SFC,Hooker Catback.

Good point!


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It is a good point, BUT you have to remember that Chevy will not let a Mustang be faster than a Vette. That said, we all know the Camaro gets the "Vette" engine which is supposed to be detuned, but not really. The Vette will still always be faster because it is lighter and more aerodynamic. The illusion is all in the hp ratings. As long as the Camaro is rated a little lower, then it will be fine.

GM could make a 500hp na vett and then tune down the maro to lets say 499hp na

Well.... Why shouldn't the Corvette be the fastest GM car???

I'm sure the Vette yields a higher profit marging. GM drop the ball with the Fbodies. They got lazy and stupid.

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95 Formula M6, Cags, SLP shifter, Grant SFC,Hooker Catback.

I really think if there is a fifth generation alot of people are going to be dissapointed.Its all fine and good to keep bumping up horsepower, but insurance companies are going to rape you. You notice how lame the GT's hp still is?? It will problably say that way. The lst thing GM wants are 18 year old kids with 450hp cars on the street. I think the new SS model will be fast, but like the Cobra will be priced out of teenagers range (assuming most teenagers can't affors 34 to $40k cars)

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87 Grand National, 9 sec street car

2002 NBM WS.6 A4

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BLUETOPTA:
Is the fact that GM will not let any of their vehicles be in comparision of HP and speed of their #1 Gun Corvette..... That is what is killing all of their awsome concept cars. In a way I think that is why the Fbody is dead: 2003 cobra=390 hp
-In order for an Fbody to beat this it would be faster than the Vette.....NO WAY!

If something or someone would light a FIRE under GM's A** and get the vette into true SUPERCAR status, at least 450+ hp then some of these new cars could come true..... because if they keep up whats going on and dont get the vettes HP up then the rest of their cars wont compeat.....

Just my .02


</font>

I couldn't DISAGREE more. In my opinion, the death of the camaro had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's horsepower is lower than the current vette, or the 2003 mustang cobra. From 1993 to 2002 the camaro and firebird were undisputed performance champions in their class, and yet still were discontinued. Another 100 hp wouldn't have saved them.
Also, the current base and z06 corvettes are the greatest corvettes of all time. If you want supercar performance, you'll get supercar price, and then how many people will buy corvettes? The current corvette gives you 95% of viper performance, for tens of thousands less.
One more thing, the corvette is GM's performance flagship, get used to it. How happy would camaro owners feel if gm put out a grand am with higher horsepower?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ckt101:
One more thing, the corvette is GM's performance flagship, get used to it. How happy would camaro owners feel if gm put out a grand am with higher horsepower?

</font>

I dont think he meant to make a camaro faster than a vette. I think he was saying to make the new camaro's as fast as the current vettes and make the new vette's even faster. So that the camaro is faster than the cobra and that the vette is faster than a viper... a big ole snake eating family. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

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Urban Legend alert!!!

Many GM Cars actually had the same or higher horsepower numbers than same year Corvettes!

A short list: TransAm T/A 6.6 of 1977-1979; Buick Grand National, Buick Grand National GNX, Cyclone, Typhoon, 1989 Turbo Trans Am(Car&Driver June 1989: 0-60 in 4.6 seconds/ Road&Track January 1989 0-60 in 5.3/ Z51 L98 Vette R&T magazine 6.2 0-60), and most recently Camaro SS's 345 horsepower (that 15 horsepower spread between it and the Corvette doesn't exist).

The GNX, Typhoon, the 89 Turbo T/A and Cyclone (all Automatics) were more than capable of outrunning automatic Corvettes, matching the manual Corvettes, and in the instance of the 1989 Automatic transmissioned Turbo Trans Am, outrun manual Corvettes till at least the end of the quarter mile!

The 1978-79 T/A 6.6 TransAms had the same horsepower as Corvettes, but had more torque & near identical weight. The quarter mile between those 2 boiled down to who was a better shifter.

Also

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GN1270:
I really think if there is a fifth generation alot of people are going to be dissapointed.Its all fine and good to keep bumping up horsepower, but insurance companies are going to rape you. You notice how lame the GT's hp still is?? It will problably say that way. The lst thing GM wants are 18 year old kids with 450hp cars on the street. </font>

Two wrong areas here:

First,
Mustang insurence (along with same year Integras & Turbo Eclipses) have a slightly higher insurence rates than same year Z28s. I mentioned this in another thread, so I'll do the same here. Camaro's average buyer's age is over 40, while Mustang's is about 32. Mustang (and the other cars I mentioned) are owned by younger and more experienced drivers, therefore have more claims. Just so you don't think this is an odd case, the 1994 230 horsepower Thunderbird SC had lower insurence than the 215 horsepower Mustang GT. The T-bird was within .2 seconds to 60 mph, had a higher top speed than GT OR Cobra, had more torque than either car, was only 10 hp off of the Cobra, cost alot more, yet.....had lower insurence!!!

Second,
If you think Mustang GTs are slow, think again: http://members.tripod.com/~Camaro33/camarovsmustang.htm It's off only .3 of a second to 60 compared to an LS1 Z28 (roughly the time it would take you to blink your eye....try it!) so a good GT driver with a good launch (easier said than done) can beat you!

We still have them in top speed by a horrendous margin though. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
..Camaro's average buyer's age is over 40, while Mustang's is about 32. Mustang (and the other cars I mentioned) are owned by younger and more experienced drivers...

</font>

Meant to say younger and LESS experienced drivers. Proofreading button didn't work.

Sorry, BLUETOPTA, but you missed it completely. Corvette has NOTHING to do with the f-body hiatus.

Know what percent of the driving public who can afford a car that is $30k list care about top horsepower, quarter miles, etc? Answer: Almost none! Why do you think that SUV's, 4 cylinder's, and pick up trucks sell well? The answer lies in the fact that the vast majority of car buyers have priorites that often take precedence over raw power.

I would be willing to bet that if GM made a 600 hp f-body, it would sell less than the current car because too many people would be afraid to drive it.

Contrary to popular belief, it is NOT GM's purpose in life to build fast cars. Their primary job like that of ALL publicly owned companies is to maximize the wealth of their stockholders -- period.

Don't think that I wouldn't want an f-body that run's 11's right from the factory -- I would! But there aren't enough people with a warped brain like mine and others here to make a good business case for GM. They have to sell a whole bunch of V6's in order to build a smaller number of fire breathing V8's.

Sorry, but that is just the way it is....

Juion..i agree with todays version of the f-body, now put in the 03 Cobra and do the rates, then imagine what a car with 50 more hp will be. I'm not talking current rates, i'm talking future rates, and of course insurance companies don't necessarily go by average age. I'm sure everyone here is talking about an affordable 400+hp version, which would mean affordable to teenagers. I just think the affordable versions would problably still have the LS1 or comparable HP. You can go hog wild with hp #'s on special edition or limited production cars because there will always be some enthusiasts with deep pockets, but i dobt we'll ever see a $25k 400hp f-body, maybe a limited edition SS for $40k.

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87 Grand National, 9 sec street car

2002 NBM WS.6 A4

[This message has been edited by GN1270 (edited September 12, 2002).]

Has anyone seen the C5 Covette in the LeMans racing series? It's a V10 and it lead in points. It's ahead of the Viper. I hope this could be a thought by GM to put this engine in the next gen Vette. They should, because the next Viper has 500HP and even the old Viper still bit*% slaps the newest year Z06.

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96 Z, T-tops,M6,K&N FIPK,HPP+,160*,Borla Cat-back,52mm BBK TB, TB by-pass,Edelbrock shorty headers,Granatelli MAF,Accel Extreme wires,NGK TR55's,FireBall Coil
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The engine inside of the C5R in LeMans is a 7 liter LS1 block. Its a bored and stroked Katech block with a 4 inch stroke and 4.125 inch bore. It has special 11* heads for a higher compression ratio and is built to run at high rpm's. It is still a V8. Get the facts straight. Only the Viper has a V10. GM running a V10 would violate LeMans rules since Chevy never made 50 V10 Vettes.

The HP roof saved GM from going insane. It'd be nice to see Camaros come out of the factory with 400 rwhp, but if they came with 400 hp, people would want 425... then 450, where does it stop? Ford has to top 390 hp now, which wont be overly difficult for them in the next few years, but what about when people want 490 hp?

btw, you can get the 11 degree cylinder head now from GM :) pn 12480005 along with the C5R block pn 12480030

Originally posted by guionM
Urban Legend alert!!!

Many GM Cars actually had the same or higher horsepower numbers than same year Corvettes! Cyclone, etc. .

Syclone dammit! With an S!

And marketing is the worst thing that hurts GM. How many F-bof commercials do you ever remember seeing in the last 5 years? 2? Maybe 3? There you go!

Originally posted by SinisterSyclone
Syclone dammit! With an S!

And marketing is the worst thing that hurts GM. How many F-bof commercials do you ever remember seeing in the last 5 years? 2? Maybe 3? There you go!

I'm not so sure that lots of marketing would have really saved the F-body.....unless they would have spent marketing dollars on advertising the LS1. That would only have appealed to a narrow audience though.

Ford doesn't market the Mustang much in the conventional sense (like TV and print ads)....but they have done a good job of "imaging" it. The "Mustang" name means something...even to the layperson consumer (and really means something to the Ford enthusiast). Mustang's specific models also create excitement with the consumer.

IMO...the "imaging" ball was dropped big time with the Camaro.....all the marketing in the world won't make up for that.

To me, imaging and marketing are one in the same. Both deal with getting the car out there. Make people want to buy one. You are right, Mustangs have a great public image. Nowdays, they dont really need a whole lot of advertising. But I still see commercials though.

The Camaro/Firebird had virtually no public image. Marketing could have helped that. Where are the signs? The TV ads? The magazine spots? I'll tell you: They are nowhere to be found.

GM wants to write the demise off to poor sales. Well, what fixes poor sales? A redesign? Maybe. Whats the best thing though? MARKETING! You could sell a shoebox full of dog crap to people if you had a good enough marketing plan.

Originally posted by SinisterSyclone
Syclone dammit! With an S!

And marketing is the worst thing that hurts GM. How many F-bof commercials do you ever remember seeing in the last 5 years? 2? Maybe 3? There you go!

Ok, ok, Syclone :rolleyes:

I agree GM could have done more to market Camaro. Even if they didn't want to spring for it, at the very least it should have occasionally been in the background of commercials of their other cars, thereby creating the same "mystique" the Mustang has at Ford.


In a related area, this article came from thecarconnection today. I've suspected that the whole Camaro phaseout was purposely done due to CAW issues more than anything (though I don't suspect they have any special claim to the name Camaro ).

"CAW, GM TALKS TURN CHILLY
The mood in contract talks between the Canadian Auto Workers and General Motors has turned decidedly chilly after the union rejected the company's first offer. Buzz Hargrove, the president of the CAW, called the offer set out by GM negotiators the worst he has ever seen in the 23 years he has participated in negotiations with the Big Three. "I've come to the conclusion that this Friday the 13th might be a bad omen for General Motors," said Hargrove, who said the union would not bother with making any kind of counteroffer and would wait for GM to submit a new offer that could get the talks moving — otherwise a strike was a real possibility, Hargrove said. The blunt strike threat was a complete turnabout from the day before, when Hargrove had appeared at a joint press conference with Michael G. Grimaldi, the president of GM of Canada, and predicted a peaceful settlement. "All the optimism is out the window. I think this is the worst first offer we have ever received, both in terms of its contents and direction," said Hargrove, who has a long history of blunt talk. Officials from GM of Canada, meanwhile, noted there was still plenty of time for the company and the union to reach agreement and that talks were continuing."

Originally posted by SinisterSyclone
To me, imaging and marketing are one in the same. Both deal with getting the car out there. Make people want to buy one.
I'm no marketing guy, (nor have I played one on TV)...but I've worked with dept. loads of them and have on occasion hired some .....so I've had the opportunity to form my own ideas.

To me marketing is....."Buy our outdated Cavalier...$1,000 rebates and 0% financing.....offer ends soon!!!!!"


Imaging is what Ford has done for the Mustang.

This includes clearly delineated performance models ,( allof which, BTW, are desirable in their own way) that excite consumers and enthusiasts (look at how much "Mustang talk" we've had on this Camaro forum).
In contrast, the Camaro program created a counter productive decrease in enthusiasm with their line-up in this regard. WERM has been especially eloquent in describing this condition.


And... Bill Ford himself appears on TV ads boosting the Mustang's image with his own words of praise for Mustang and it's heritage.....can you imagine that!!

Can you imagine Bob Lutz going on national TV and saying "If I could have only one car it would be a Camaro...and since Chevy has such a rich motorsport heritage...make it a Z/28!"

......NOT A CHANCE OF THAT EVER HAPPENING!


The way I see it ...this is just one reason why Mustang lives and Camaro is on hiatus.

Originally posted by Z284ever
I'm no marketing guy, (nor have I played one on TV)...but I've worked with dept. loads of them and have on occasion hired some .....so I've had the opportunity to form my own ideas.

To me marketing is....."Buy our outdated Cavalier...$1,000 rebates and 0% financing.....offer ends soon!!!!!"


Imaging is what Ford has done for the Mustang.

This includes clearly delineated performance models ,( allof which, BTW, are desirable in their own way) that excite consumers and enthusiasts (look at how much "Mustang talk" we've had on this Camaro forum).
In contrast, the Camaro program created a counter productive decrease in enthusiasm with their line-up in this regard. WERM has been especially eloquent in describing this condition.


And... Bill Ford himself appears on TV ads boosting the Mustang's image with his own words of praise for Mustang and it's heritage.....can you imagine that!!

Can you imagine Bob Lutz going on national TV and saying "If I could have only one car it would be a Camaro...and since Chevy has such a rich motorsport heritage...make it a Z/28!"

......NOT A CHANCE OF THAT EVER HAPPENING!


The way I see it ...this is just one reason why Mustang lives and Camaro is on hiatus.

You bring up an excellent point Z. Bill Ford, CEO goes on TV with words of praise for it's heritage & what it represents, yet what we got (actual quote here) were words to the effect that "advertising is the problem with Camaro. Everyone knows what a Camaro is anyway".

Sometimes telling others to "have faith" isn't quite enough.

Originally posted by Z284ever

And... Bill Ford himself appears on TV ads boosting the Mustang's image with his own words of praise for Mustang and it's heritage.....can you imagine that!!

Can you imagine Bob Lutz going on national TV and saying "If I could have only one car it would be a Camaro...and since Chevy has such a rich motorsport heritage...make it a Z/28!"

......NOT A CHANCE OF THAT EVER HAPPENING!


I don't think anybody uses the words heritage and Camaro together anymore. Everybody wants to run out and buy a Mustang because of it's long heritage while the Camaro and Firebird were forgotten by the public.

I can see Bob Lutz saying those things about a Corvette, but not a Camaro.:(

I don't know what's going to happen in a few years, but it doesn't look good for a Camaro.

If there was any desire or enthuiasm for the Camaro at GM wouldn't we hear something instead of all this cloak and dagger bulls**t.

I was always going to buy GM I said 10 years ago, but now that loyalty dies with the Camaro.

F*** GM!!:mad:

Originally posted by cobraeater
I don't think anybody uses the words heritage and Camaro together anymore. Everybody wants to run out and buy a Mustang because of it's long heritage while the Camaro and Firebird were forgotten by the public.





Sadly true:mad: .

But the really sad part is that Camaro has an unusually rich heritage, that has been unfortunately squandered like sea pay by a drunken sailor on shore leave.

What a pity! Now Camaro has been sentenced to GM purgatory.

Maybe a short (repeat...short) hiatus for Camaro may end up being the best thing for it. Maybe a clean break for now, with a later re-introduction to it's actual heritage and compelling history may end up being a good thing.:think:

Originally posted by Z284ever
And... Bill Ford himself appears on TV ads boosting the Mustang's image with his own words of praise for Mustang and it's heritage.....can you imagine that!!


Haha yeah, but I'm not sure Bill sells a ton of cars just by reading a script in a commercial. He doesn't even sound like he knows what he's talking about, or it sounds so contrived it's laughable. My two favorite spots are:

"...Mustang with a throaty V8 and a great sound system." :rolleyes:

"Low end torque is what's important. We have great low-end torque" (truck commercial) :metal: Yeah you rock Bill. Do you even know what torque is? I swear everytime he says it I laugh out loud.

I don't think we need Bob Lutz to counter with his own ads, just a nice, well thought out commercial displaying the Camaro heritage. Words shouldn't even be necessary. Hold the sap please. :)

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Haha yeah, but I'm not sure Bill sells a ton of cars just by reading a script in a commercial. He doesn't even sound like he knows what he's talking about, or it sounds so contrived it's laughable. My two favorite spots are:

"...Mustang with a throaty V8 and a great sound system." :rolleyes:

"Low end torque is what's important. We have great low-end torque" (truck commercial) :metal: Yeah you rock Bill. Do you even know what torque is? I swear everytime he says it I laugh out loud.

I don't think we need Bob Lutz to counter with his own ads, just a nice, well thought out commercial displaying the Camaro heritage. Words shouldn't even be necessary. Hold the sap please. :)

The commercial may sound fake, but he is widely known to be solidly behind and committed to the Mustang & it's future (and to some extent, the Mercury division as well).

At GM, do we have that same level commitment?

Another thing the Mustang has going for it is that it's Fords top sports/muscle/pony car. GM treated the Fbody like a bastard child of the Vette, where as the Mustang doesnt have to compete with anything within Ford.

All the third party ads with Fords in them (like BFG, Blisten etc ads) get Cobras and all the 3rd party GM ads get Vettes. That's just more free advertisment for the Mustang. While Ford doesnt overly adverstise the Stang, a lot of other copanies do it for them.

Originally posted by GN1270
The lst thing GM wants are 18 year old kids with 450hp cars on the street. I think the new SS model will be fast, but like the Cobra will be priced out of teenagers range (assuming most teenagers can't affors 34 to $40k cars)

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87 Grand National, 9 sec street car

2002 NBM WS.6 A4

HA HA, but dont think we wont wait till theyre a couple years old and then buy them!!!

Originally posted by lock down
GM could make a 500hp na vett and then tune down the maro to lets say 499hp na

I like this idea.:D