SERIOUS company looking for feedback to produce the ultimate F-body turbo kits!

Just wanted to give everyone a head's up on a serious company who is looking to build a selection of OEM quality turbo kits for LS1 and LT1 and possibly even V6 f-bodies.

Be advised, this company IS NOT not taking any kind of prepayment, pre-sale, deposit, etc. on turbo kits at this time. They are first looking hear from your experience on what you think a f-body turbo kit should be all about.

All they are looking for at this time is to interact with the F-body crowd about what they do and do not like about the turbo kits that are currently available for f-body so they can build the perfect f-body turbo kit.

Their site is definitely worth checking out as right now they just want know what the future buyers want, nothing more than that. Once enough feedback has been generated, they plan to start working on the kits. They have already started to jig the kits for LS1 cars and as they do, they need to intereact with people to ensure they continue heading the right direction.

This is YOUR chance to speak your mind about what an f-body turbo kit should and should not be, and help shape what the final products will have to offer. Want a twin turbo kit for a street car that does nor sacrifice daily dreveability? Tell them. Want to pull the front wheels a foot off the ground and hit the traps at 140+ mph? They want to know.

Head over to http://www.turbolocity.com and feel free to surf to the LS1 and LT1 sections of their forums. You may see a lot of Ford-related information there, but don't let that scare you away, these guys are SERIOUS about building the ULTIMATE selection of turbo kits for f-bodies.

One last thought...
This is not some fly-by-night company who is just flying this operation by the seat of their pants. One of the people who is spearheading this operation is a close personal friend of mine and the brawn behind the production of these kits has wants to do this and do it right and has the experience to pull it off.

http://www.turbolocity.com

Let's help make the best turbo kit ever for f-bodies!

Not another fly-by company? I'll reserve judgement. But hey, I'm game.
Well; MY concept of the "ideal" turbo set up would have to include a bolt-in kit complete with water-cooled intercooler, all the plumbing and necessary hardware, an adjustable boost controller, and clear, detailed instructions. Cost? around the same as a set of heads and cam. The kit would be upgradeable, so if I wanted to step up to a bigger turbo, I could without having to change the plumbing.
But, I'm dreaming, and I don't have the money to develop my own.
Good idea though, hope this one can get off the ground;)

Camaro00_ss took the words out of my mouth that would be a for sure hit in the F-body world and for a decent price like he stated them things would be sellin so fast ya couldnt keep up with the demand... just wanted to state my opinion on that :)

Well, i have registered and put in my $0.02. Hopefully this will get off the ground and in a good way!

as a teenager money is a big problem with buying anything like a turbo, heads n cam, or supercharger. So for me price would be very big in determining if i will get it or not. There is no way a I could ever afford a 2-5 supercharger or turbo working a part time job with college coming after the summer. Money is the issue for me.





_____________________-
98 z28 a4 artic white
lid n K+n air filter
80 series flowmaster muffler
black camaro inserts
avs tailshades
cowl induction hood

if you can make a better setup than the guys from ls1motorsports.com did, and you make it cheaper than their price... im game man, and not only that, but i'd make sure that ALL my friends w/ f-bods buy their turbo kit from you as well

either a big ass turbo... or twin turbo kit would be good. i heard about a kid w/ a twin turbo camaro down somewhere in my area (miami), but i have no idea who he is and i cant seem to know anyone who knows where he got his setup from. ill ask around, but yeah, if you're gonna throw together a turbo kit, you better make it bad ass and for a reasonable price. if i decide to get a turbo, i think im going to go w/ the one from ls1motorsports.com unless i can find a cheaper one that's actually better than theirs. i aint in the mood for a supercharger... i wanna hear my car blow off :)

OK this is what would sell me a turbo kit:
1. Reasonable price for a base kit for a stock engine. 4-5lbs boost
2. Easy installation with complete instructions.
3. And most important of all.....a complete tuning solution. I would not want to deal with umpteen trips to the dyno/tuner to get it right.

well, another thing...

you should make 2 kits... one for minimal boost that the car will be able to handle that only brings the turbo kit, and then an upgrade kit which would include everything you'd need to change in the engine and misc. stuff, and a bigger turbo, to boost even more. still, price is important, so it would be nice if it wasn't so expensive.

looking at the prices of the current kits on that site, it doesnt look like we are any closer to an affordable turbo kit for these cars

I'd like to see various stages offered. Everything from simple, quick-spool single turbo kits with everything needed and tuning included, to more efficient twin turbo kits, with turbo upgrades. I also want to see DISHED Forged pistons offered in various bores to lower the compression to around 8.5 to 1 for serious boost.

If you can do this :bow: . I will be your customer. I had been planning on buying the LS1 Motorsports turbo kit, but I'd like to see a TT setup offered, and lower compression for more boost. If I'm going turbo, I want to really boost, not settle for 6-7lbs and maybe 9 lbs on race gas.

Clint

Clint, you cant possible ask a turbo company to make pistons can you?

Diamond,
Ross
Lunati
SRP
etc etc etc all make pistons for us already..

that stuff is trivial for a turbo company, its not their market..

the rest of the stuff sounds good..

I do not want a water to air intercooler.. I want an Air to Air Intercooler for the street. maybe an option for the 1000+ dollar air to water for just track use..

I am looking to own either a TA or Camaro Z28/SS but I currently own a miata. The great thing about the car is the cheap turbo solution Greddy has come up with. Basically its the turbo, the plumbing, and a fuel pump regulator all for $1300. The beuty is no need for intercooler it doesnt raise temps "that" much. Really no tuning involved(a simple timing adjustment that seems to work well) no need to beef up the tranny or rear end(not sure if this is an issue for the T/A or SS) and gives almost a 50% hp increase for the miata(granted thats only about 45 hp)..but the best thing is its set at a base 5psi and fully upgradable to about 12psi with intercooler, new electronics bigger injectors etc..enough to at least double the hp to about 200 on a 2000lb car. NOW THAT would sell like hotcakes for the LS1. I sure would look at it!
In short: A cheap into turbo kit that can be upgraded little by little over time. That sounds like a winner.

i would think because of the size maybe the turbo wed use would be more expensive..

Basicly its proven, that forced induction ls1's need "Custom" tuning, injectors and a fuel pump to survive.

We need a kit that come with tthis stuff, and a kit that dosnt.

and it has to be inexpensive.. too many guys are selling 4500-7500 forced induction kits.. we dont drive c5's here

Originally posted by PhantomTA
and it has to be inexpensive.. too many guys are selling 4500-7500 forced induction kits.. we dont drive c5's here

I own a C5 and i can't even afford that TT kit. 11K? Jesus

No, I wouldn't ask them to make pistons, but provide them in a kit upgrade. I wouldn't ask them to make an intercooler either, but I would expect them to outsource to a company like Spearco.

I know it's generally not included, but as a matter of convenience.

Price definitely plays paramount in any decisions I make.

I'd also like to be able to buy a kit but delete certain options that I may have already, like a high-flow MAF, or whatever and save money on the kit.

you guys want a kit thats complete and costs less than $4500 and has the same or higher quality than the LS1MS kit?? it will never happen...you cannot build that kit yourself for less than that...they have to make money somewhere.

Ok first got a question.
Went to the site and saw that the turbo kit on the picture was from turbo technology. That is Jimmy's turbo chevelle from WA state. Do they have any pictures of their current stuff?

Now their is a few diff things for Ultimate turbo system IMO. Of course everyone has their own opinions.

2 kits i would consider ultimate kits.
1.
single turbo 88-91 mm turbo
air-water intercooler system
huge wastegate or wastegates
stainless 321 turbo headers fully tig welded
blow off valve

Tuning, fuel, computer etc.. would all be done on your own or seperate setups. Now for a system like this i was quoted from Kooks custom headers 6k with me supplying all parts minus tubing, and hoses and get back a car ready to drop oil in.

2.
Twin turbo system
2-60-1 hifi's or like turbos (poss smaller)
single large front mount air-air intercooler
dual wastegates properly sized (not turbonetics deltagates)
stainless 321 headers, all intercooler hoses, etc... ready to bolt in system

Both of these would not be that cheap but as the ultimate system would be nice.

Steven

Whatever they finally decide to produce ... make it modular. Some people will want only certain parts, so make the individual pieces available at a price relevant to their percentage of the total price of the kit.

You know I have been looking for years for someone to make a 'turbo kit' for a LT1 car and people come and they go and no one has ever actually done it. The only people I have ever seen make a good kit for a late model F car is Incon and it was only for the LS1 cars. And they are not around anymore.

The idea is great.....I just don't actually see anyone doing it.

Originally posted by 1LEThumper
You know I have been looking for years for someone to make a 'turbo kit' for a LT1 car and people come and they go and no one has ever actually done it. The only people I have ever seen make a good kit for a late model F car is Incon and it was only for the LS1 cars. And they are not around anymore.

The idea is great.....I just don't actually see anyone doing it.
I see it happening, and I think everyone will be pleasantly suprised with the results. The test cars will be there this weekend.

if it isnt a log manifold i will be plesently suprised. I am so suprised not many people have had tubular headers made for our car. But custom always works too :D

Hey, if your going to build the turbo systems dont forget the L98 engines in 3rd gen Camaros and Birds.

I think an inexpensive turbo-kit would be awesome! Just stick a turbo (preferably a TT kit!) kit on the car, a few other minor thing such as exhaust, etc, and I would be GOOD to go!

I would like some clarification on what you mean by ultimate turbo system. Now i have yet to see this company post info or do something of the sort so i take everything i see here with a grain of salt.

The definition of ultimate for lots is way diff.

Me ultimate, Lots of hp, looks must be very good.

Others ultimate, LOTS OF HP (of course), cheap etc..

I think most people that argue about the turbo prices need to go out and start to price every part that goes into a kit then start from there to see what they feel they can afford. Some can just afford a base turbo tech kit, which imo is about as entry level as they come. There prices are a little high for the technology they are using, and quality level of the work.

My deffinition:
1- Nice lookin'
2- Lots 'o power!
3- GREAT looks
4- Easy to install
5- Easy to tune/upgrade
6- CHEAP!!

My deffinition:
1- Nice lookin'
2- Lots 'o power!
3- GREAT looks
4- Easy to install
5- Easy to tune/upgrade
6- CHEAP!!

Sorry to say it but all that is not going to happen...
Well not on what i consider cheap. What do you consider cheap?

The install on any of the turbo kits are going to be about the same in all honesty, its just a header/manifold so if you can install headers it should be fairly straight foward.

Now guys just for the record i am not bashing anyone I am just trying to get some people to think about this in diff ways.

Well... majesticturbo.com sells 15psi turbos for about 800 bucks, how much could the manifold and all the other b/s cost? Couldnt be a whole lot! (i am just getting familiar w/ turbo's, so please dont bash me TOO much...lol)

So for what i DO know about turbos, i would consider 1800 bucks for a complete turbo kit a good price. (this would come w/ turbo, manifold/s, and all the other b/s

So for what i DO know about turbos, i would consider 1800 bucks for a complete turbo kit a good price. (this would come w/ turbo, manifold/s, and all the other b/s

I hope you dont plan on this coming with an intercooler for $1800. I dont see a complete kit coming out anywhere near that price. Just my .02.
Scott

Well, how much will a intercooler cost?

Originally posted by zturbo
if it isnt a log manifold i will be plesently suprised. I am so suprised not many people have had tubular headers made for our car. But custom always works too :D

I really have to say, the two good LS1 kits out now, LS1 motorsports and CAS both seem very nice with nice equipment etc... the one thing that does really bother me though is that none of them have a turbo manifold with seperate primaries... they are all using the log style. Personally I would like to see something along the lines of the LS1 Motorsports kit but without using a log style manifold.

yeah, everyone wants it cheap. But do you have any idea how expensive it is to design and put the parts together for such kits? These guys aren't pulling 50% margins.

An "ultimate" kit, for me, means that it is tops in quality and performance. That means it will be prohibitively expensive for most people..this is kinda the same reason why we don't all live in mansions and drive Ferraris. If you want cheap, go to the junk yard and pull an old turbo and intercooler and get to work. It might be the case that you can't afford to do this until you're older and making more money.

Also, in my opinion, forced induction should be done right...the budget should be large and loose to allow for quality and unforseen problems.

Chris,
Very correct :)
Lots of forseen things :( but it is all fun in the end. I have loved my buildup of my twins, it has taken a while but it is wicked to say yea i did it and it makes XXXX in the end :)

Chris,
Very correct :)
Lots of forseen things :( but it is all fun in the end. I have loved my buildup of my twins, it has taken a while but it is wicked to say yea i did it and it makes XXXX in the end :)

Steve,

Please check your PM:)

Your e-mail has been bouncing back for some reason.

this is a greaaaaaaaaaattttttttttttt ideaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! i've been waitin for a good turbo kit to come out for f-bodies. It would b so sweet if i could throw a turbo on my v6...that would just make my day...my every day!!! to whoever is endeavoring to design this kit, good luck.....also this would help out alot of us v6'ers who can't afford the insurance of the v8 or a regular turboed car, then we could compete and make a better name for the v6 f-body camaros!!!!!!! camaro power baby!!!!:bow:

Jim
Its clear :)

Thanks!

You have a PM:)

so when are the kits coming out?

The kit is in the process of being installed now. We are hoping to have it all tuned and ready by the end of April.. Check it out with some pics at www.Turbolocity.com

Originally posted by 85_LG4
Well... majesticturbo.com sells 15psi turbos for about 800 bucks, how much could the manifold and all the other b/s cost? Couldnt be a whole lot! (i am just getting familiar w/ turbo's, so please dont bash me TOO much...lol)

So for what i DO know about turbos, i would consider 1800 bucks for a complete turbo kit a good price. (this would come w/ turbo, manifold/s, and all the other b/s

And this in a nutshell is the reason why there are few good turbo kits out for these cars and why the companies don’t seem to be around for long.

You can’t buy a new, single, appropriately sized turbo for that price, and you expect someone to build you a kit with the turbo for that? If you want to know why they exist for Hondas and mustangs, let me tell you flat out, I’ve been offered more to let me use someone’s Honda to prototype just the plumbing, and between half the cylinders, roughly half the plumbing, and much easier packaging, I’d be making roughly 3x as much for my time cutting and welding.

If you want to know what it would take to make this worth while for a someone to make money on, pick up a copy of import tuner or turbo, look at the price of a turbo kit there, multiply the price by 2 to 2.5x, and then add the difference between the hybrid turbo that they’re running (probably about $700) and the T70-T90 or so that would be appropriate for a small block (about $2000-3000), and you’ll have a price that will keep someone in business and allow them to have the resources for good tech support, marketing…

Second, there are a lot of misconceptions here that force potential manufacturer’s into building things that are unnecessary/more expensive just so their kits are not looked at as a joke. For example, in this thread the whole log manifold vs header style has come up. There is only one deciding factor there as far as performance goes, which one can be built/packaged with the smaller internal volume without having a ‘choke point’ in it somewhere, that’s it. There is no chance of any scavenging or other effects that headers are designed to achieve. To get scavenging you need very low pressure, high flow velocity and less backpressure after the collector then before it. A turbo system will have more back pressure in the manifold then it will see boost pressure on the intake side. Typically 2x as much. If you’re seeing 15psi boost, you’ve probably got over 30psi backpressure PLUS whatever you’ve got after the turbo, quite often 4-6psi if you’re not dumping the down pipe right away, so you likely have over 35psi backpressure. At 35 PSI a header will not flow any differently then a log. And you will NEVER see less pressure after the collector, that’s where the turbo’s turbine is mounted, which by design has to restrict the exhaust to harness it’s energy.

Originally posted by BlownSilverZ
The kit is in the process of being installed now. We are hoping to have it all tuned and ready by the end of April.. Check it out with some pics at www.Turbolocity.com

I did not find any pictures on their website of the f-body kit.

On the topic of the log versus tuned header I'd argue that pressure pulses are still present even with higher pressures in a turbo cars exhaust. Due to this individual cylinder schavenging is still possible but to a lesser degree than with a non-turbo setup... Cross cylinder scavenging still works also. A well engineered turbo header will not have that high of a exahust to manifold pressure ratio... in fact its very possible for the exhaust pressure to be lower than intake pressure... after all, the majority of the energy to drive the impeller is from heat, not exhaust pressure.

One of the tricks to building an effective turbo header / manifold is organizing the cylinder pulses with individual tube length from each cylinder so that the collector/turbo only has to handle one cylinder pulse at a time. This allows pressure in the header to come down... with it response improves and power to goes up. Both are concerns for me in a higher end setup although I'd not be too worried about it with a 4-8 psi kit.

Another point is materials selection. Stainless in my book is a must due to its heat transfer qualities both for the sake of performance and for the engine compartment. I'd also make arguements for its looks and durability. The only drawback is the cost but if its a tube header, mild steel can be assembled in the same jig for the customer who does not want to pay for stainless. Thick flanges (3/8-1/2")are also a must.

Pulse tuning is a valid issue, but for the most part on a gas engine we’re harnessing heat energy, not the energy of the pulses. If you’re tuning for that there’s only 2 ways of accomplishing it successfully, you’d either have to run 2 header primaries under the engine to cross over to the other side and then make the rest of the primaries that length, or you’d have to run a 180* crank (to get rid of the exhaust pulses that are 90* apart on each side). Both much more difficult, if not approaching unmanageable solutions for most.

I suppose that you could mess with primary lengths and try to get them so all the pulses get to the collectors evenly spaced, but that would only work for a very small rpm on a twin turbo setup. You’d have to go through that whole process over again to tune the crossover length. In the long run I don’t think that with the 4 pulses/revolution of a v8 you’ll get a measurable better spooling by getting the pulses even then you will without. Either way, equal length
“headers” will not get them significantly more even then a “log” and will only gain you extra volume to fill between the exhaust port and turbo and more surface area to cool on, both of which will hurt spooling.

WRT pressure and even scavenging, I’ve never seen any evidence that anyone has ever built a turbo setup on a gas engine that shows less pressure at the exhaust port then intake port under boost. I’m not even sure that I’ve seen any data for anyone who’s gotten below 1.5x the intake pressure. For scavenging to happen at all you’d have to show a negative relative pressure at the exhaust ports. Until anyone produces any real data that you can get even a 1:1 ratio under boost on a turbocharged setup, the argument of if you can get scavenging is moot.

I suppose that you could mess with primary lengths and try to get them so all the pulses get to the collectors evenly spaced, but that would only work for a very small rpm on a twin turbo setup. You’d have to go through that whole process over again to tune the crossover length. In the long run I don’t think that with the 4 pulses/revolution of a v8 you’ll get a measurable better spooling by getting the pulses even then you will without. Either way, equal length “headers” will not get them significantly more even then a “log” and will only gain you extra volume to fill between the exhaust port and turbo and more surface area to cool on, both of which will hurt spooling.

Yeah, I'm thinking of a twin setup when I make this case. It should be possible with a single but lots more difficult to actually package. The type of tuning we are talking here is not RPM dependant. This is not the same thing as the helmhertz effect that is RPM dependant. This is tuning individual primary tube lengths to allow one pulse through the collector at a time. As long as all the pulses travel at the same rate as their companions. RPM is not a factor. Yes the length of the primary tube is a negative due to heat loss but the gains in this case are far superior to the losses. Even so, some of the heat losses can be recouped with better material selection (stainless) or coatings.
John Meanys corvette featured in popular hot rodding is an example that does this with a long tube design while the example I've used below makes use of this effect with a manifold design.

WRT pressure and even scavenging, I’ve never seen any evidence that anyone has ever built a turbo setup on a gas engine that shows less pressure at the exhaust port then intake port under boost. I’m not even sure that I’ve seen any data for anyone who’s gotten below 1.5x the intake pressure. For scavenging to happen at all you’d have to show a negative relative pressure at the exhaust ports. Until anyone produces any real data that you can get even a 1:1 ratio under boost on a turbocharged setup, the argument of if you can get scavenging is moot.

I'll quote for you an example from a magazine article on the old thirdgen twin turbo kit from banks. This should suffice for real evidence.
"The key to this power output is that exhaust backpressure within the turbo system is kept very low. Most turbo systems end up with more exhaust back pressure between the cylinder head and the turbocharger turbing than boost pressure in the induction system, thus preventing the exhaust gases from efficiently leaving the comustion chamber. In fact, many single turbo systems have exhaust pressure that is over twice as high as the boost pressure. Banks' system is designed to always provide more boost pressure than exhaust backpressure, and it is this positive differential between boost pressure and exhaust pressure that really produces power."

Now I'll also say that turbine selection is a very important part of this equation. Its not going to matter how well designed your header is if your turbine is too small.

Originally posted by Ira W
Yeah, I'm thinking of a twin setup when I make this case. It should be possible with a single but lots more difficult to actually package. The type of tuning we are talking here is not RPM dependant. This is not the same thing as the helmhertz effect that is RPM dependant. This is tuning individual primary tube lengths to allow one pulse through the collector at a time. As long as all the pulses travel at the same rate as their companions. RPM is not a factor. Yes the length of the primary tube is a negative due to heat loss but the gains in this case are far superior to the losses. Even so, some of the heat losses can be recouped with better material selection (stainless) or coatings.
John Meanys corvette featured in popular hot rodding is an example that does this with a long tube design while the example I've used below makes use of this effect with a manifold design.

Ira, please reread what I wrote, and then consider the firing order of and SBC/LT1… I was talking about a dual setup, to have the pulses reach the collectors evenly, you’d have to crossover 2 tubes from one side to the other and then make the other 3 on that side the same length.

I'll quote for you an example from a magazine article on the old thirdgen twin turbo kit from banks. This should suffice for real evidence.
"The key to this power output is that exhaust backpressure within the turbo system is kept very low. Most turbo systems end up with more exhaust back pressure between the cylinder head and the turbocharger turbing than boost pressure in the induction system, thus preventing the exhaust gases from efficiently leaving the comustion chamber. In fact, many single turbo systems have exhaust pressure that is over twice as high as the boost pressure. Banks' system is designed to always provide more boost pressure than exhaust backpressure, and it is this positive differential between boost pressure and exhaust pressure that really produces power."

FWIW, I’ve seen that before and never believed bank’s advertising spiel, mostly because they never publish any #’s. If they’re comparing their #’s to OEM setups, yes, they will see lower pressures, because every OEM setup that I’ve ever seen has had what would be considered an undersized turbo from a performance standpoint. To be honest, I don’t believe that they’re seeing less pressure between the port and turbine even most of the time under boost. Second, I’d point out that as far as I know, banks has always used log/manifold designs.

Hey Andris, you reading this? Have you ever tried measuring the pressure on your setup before the turbo?