GTO Designer speaks ...

Here ya go - straight from the Horses mouth:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
DESIGN CHIEF CONFIDENT

HOLDEN design chief Mike Simcoe is confident the new generation Monaro-based Pontiac GTO will find an enthusiastic buying audience in the US despite some criticisms that the car is not built there.

Debate has raged on auto enthusiast websites for months about the validity of the Monaro as a GTO, and the release of the first official sketch of the car last week has done nothing to quieten things down. "As long as the car delivers what they expect of it – that's performance and delivering the brand – then there shouldn't be a problem," Mr Simcoe said. "The performance of the car will be what sells it."

The redo of Monaro was performed by the same team that styled Monaro, led by chief designer Richard Ferlazzo with Jeff Haggerty handling the restyling of the nose.
Rather than hark back to the GTO's heritage, the Holden team has come up with a look that uses the front-end of the Solstice concept
unveiled in Detroit last January as its
inspiration. "What we have done is embody what they understand now as the Pontiac brand
cues in the vehicle," Mr Simcoe said. "The vehicle in the studio actually looks good, much better than the sketch. So don't judge it by the sketch."

But does he like it as much as the Monaro? "We designed the car that we are producing right now – any iteration beyond that is in my mind not as good as the original," Mr Simcoe said. "However, you can't sell a car over there without having a brand attached to it."

And what of the internet debate about the suitability of Monaro as a GTO? "My method on that one is 'grow up a bit, this is a car that will take you three or four steps above where a GTO left the market', so that's probably appropriate," Mr Simcoe said.</font>

Flogged from www.goauto.com.au (http://www.goauto.com.au)

Man, the room stinks of pure arrogance!

Basically he's saying:

"We don't care if you like how it looks... you aren't buying it for looks"

That is a horrendous attitude.

Darth,

I'm totally with you on that man. Can you detect the "Here's what we want you to have" mentality in this project? How much effort would it have taken to get a little feedback from some GTO clubs or even forums like this?

GM's got some funked-up management issues to deal with right now. I really hope Lutz can bring some change around quickly.

And this guy Jeff Haggerty that "redesigned the nose"... WTF!!! I wish I could just call up someone else's old machine design and change a few hole locations/sizes and call it my work! How long did it take this guy to perform this revolutionary masterpiece? Bad thing is, he did exactly what he was told to by his super-v.

Somebody shoot me with Halon. Man, that article just set me off bad. What blatant attitude. We all have lots of work to do to get GM to hear us, y'all know this, right?

http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]

Other than the big, flush fog lamps, I don't see Solstice in there at all.

Call it insight...

Y'all recall all the comments about "we've only seen it from the front"? Well now you know why. The front is all that is mentioned in the article above, but mentioned in detail. Don't hold your breath for a different rear appearance or another significant change to the front before production begins. Time is running out.. August releases for MY2003 are just 5 weeks away.

HuJass, I agree with your comment about the Solstice too. Maybe it was a typo in the article... it should have said, "...the Holden team has come up with a look that uses the front-end of the Grand Prix - period". Oh well.

I think I may shed a little light here. Austrailians tend to be very straightforward, cut-through-the-BS type of people. Think of the totally opposite of whiners, & you have the typical Austrailian.

Knowing as many as I do, I can see where he is comming from. If we take a look at this site regarding the car, there is alot of complaining about a car that isn't even out yet from a country whose only RWD 4 seater performance car is a Mustang (the Cobra, which is sold down there is viewed as a cheap rip-off, just to give you some perspective).

Basically he said in Aussie-speak "quit your whining till you actually see the car & it's performance". Sounds fair to me.

Those people who designed the look of that GTO are idiots. That is it.

Lets make no sense. Again.

------------------
Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg




[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]

Oh how horrible. No retro styling, and a resemblance to other Pontiac models. This totally stomps on everything the GTO stands for!

Artists don't generally take criticism well... He is not wild about people trashing his design before they actually see the real thing. His last comment was true, though. This car is several steps above the original GTO in the class it will compete. This new "GTO" is not a modestly equipped mid-size with a hot engine, but a very nicely equipped, high-tech entry-lux mid-size coupe with a hot engine. In fact, he's probably offended that the GTO name be attached to his "baby."

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2001 Pewter/Ebony hardtop Firebird Formula, polished WS6 wheels, BFG CompTA, SLP SFC, BMR STB

[This message has been edited by routesixtysixer (edited June 26, 2002).]

I'm glad to see they went back to the original Monaro designers for this iteration. I'm not going to sell these guys short or take offense. From their standpoint, they've worked really hard on a car that has been a great seller and well received by the press and public. Because of this success, it's being sent to our shores and all they hear is, "well, that's not good enough" and "I don't think so--it's no GTO!". So I can see where they come off saying, "don't worry, it'll surpas anything the GTO of decades past did". They sold out their original artistic expression so it would look like a Pontiac because we asked for it. Come on. I think a lot of you are just looking for soundbytes to jump on or comments to pick apart. The car's coming over here in a year and from the sound of things, as it appears in that sketch. If you don't like it, fine, don't preorder one. I'm sure someone will step up in your place.

There is always resistance to a new iteration of a car. The Viper crowd is going through the same thing. Times change, styles change, cars change. And if you don't like the changes, stick with the '60s renditions you already approve of. My God, you'd think they switched the car to a 2.0L FWD econobox with some of these rants. It doesn't have hood scoops. Get over it.

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

I say dont shoot the designers, they were just doing what they were told to do. That retarded "Brand Identity" thing again. As far as just chanting the company line, of course he will if he wants to keep his job, since he is not union http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif.

But he does manage to imply that he likes the original Monaro clip better, I agree it does look better than the GTO.

And he is also right it will sell no matter what it looks like cuz of it is V8 and rear drive performance. Any port looks good in a storm ya know.

I do think he sounds a little arrogant tho about his car. I doubt he has ever been to the GTO Nationals, or ridden in a real GTO. Nor do I think he really understands what GTO means to current American GTO owners.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:


Knowing as many as I do, I can see where he is comming from. If we take a look at this site regarding the car, there is alot of complaining about a car that isn't even out yet from a country whose only RWD 4 seater performance car is a Mustang (the Cobra, which is sold down there is viewed as a cheap rip-off, just to give you some perspective).


</font>

I don't know about cheap rip-off. The page on Ford Australia's website (http://www.ford.com.au/showroom/passenger/mustang/main.asp) shows that it sells Mustangs for 85-89k aus$. It only has a 240kw v8. Now for another 5-10k aus$ you can buy a HSV GTS coupe with a 300kw v8 engine. Being a sensible person I know what would be a better deal, and for that kind of money many people will pick the hsv over the mustang. It is just better value for money.

It probably isn't a cheap rip-off (expensive rip-off is more like it for us Aussies) when you consider what you can get for that kind of money.

I believe that Ford Australia imported something like 100-120 Mustangs and converted them to right hand drive. Only half had sold I believe but I am getting that from the top of my head (read it somewhere, but I don't remember where from now).

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:

I'm glad to see they went back to the original Monaro designers for this iteration. I'm not going to sell these guys short or take offense. From their standpoint, they've worked really hard on a car that has been a great seller and well received by the press and public. Because of this success, it's being sent to our shores and all they hear is, "well, that's not good enough" and "I don't think so--it's no GTO!". So I can see where they come off saying, "don't worry, it'll surpas anything the GTO of decades past did". They sold out their original artistic expression so it would look like a Pontiac because we asked for it. Come on. I think a lot of you are just looking for soundbytes to jump on or comments to pick apart. The car's coming over here in a year and from the sound of things, as it appears in that sketch. If you don't like it, fine, don't preorder one. I'm sure someone will step up in your place.

</font>

I agree with your points. Mike Simcoe has been know to ruffle some people feathers, like when he said that he wasn't happy when holden commodore owners started taking out their own original headlights and putting the Monaro ones in their place. In his opinion they where designed for the Monaro and they should only be in the Monaro. IMO, he doesn't have a bad attitude, he just likes the cars the way he designs them. And if someone says the designs is crap (or something similar) he will defend it.

One thing Holden are very good at is marketing and designing a car for the market. If that translates smoothly to the American markets is the big question mark. I can personally see the similarities between the Monaro and GTO. The main one being the years they where produced, around mid 1960 to mid 1970. The Monaro was aimed at people in the middle aged group (35-50) who heard about the Monaro (or GTO) and wanted one, or their parents had one. The years have past and those people are now older. Where as young people tend to like hard aggressive lines, as you get older, have kids and a wife (or 3 if your unlucky http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif) you get soft. Hald lines just don't appeal to that market anymore and that is the main reason why the Monaro has such clean line. Because it has been designed for that market, like the new GTO, and unless the American market goes against what i have said above then the design is on the right track. If the new GTO pulls in younger buyers then GM is appealing to a market that they are not chasing and is a bonus for them (bigger market without trying = excellent).

Another similarity between the 2 is that before the new Monaro was given the Monaro name the press started calling it Monaro, then the public started calling it the Monaro. So what are you gonna call it??? Monaro of course! From what i have read, a similar thing happen with the new GTO. A coupe was rumored to be returning and people speculated that it would be called GTO. It was announced and called the GTO (public pressure?).

In both cases lovers of the old Monaro and GTO are/where/still pissed because it isn't the original and the old name should be left alone with the good memories about the name left as is. It didn't stop them from being call that, some people are pissed, some love it. But the big question is will the target market love it? If they do, then the complaints will lessen (like here in Aus) annd it will be accepted. If it fails the GM gets called idiots for bring back the GTO name. Now we only have to wait 12-24 months to find out which one it is.

Please correct any facts that i have got wrong. this turned out waaaaaaaaay longer than i intended :P

Of course the Monaro guys are gonna be a bit mad. They did after all put a lot of work into the car, making sure it lived up to their own legendary muscle car. Now, they have to share it with Pontiac.
Take a look at these pictures of Monaro development, they will give you an idea of the work that went into this great car.

http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/21/WKA2002022129977_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/21/WKA2002022129841_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/21/WKA2002022129508_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/21/WKA2002022128738_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/21/WKA2002022127753_pv.jpg
http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/2001/011116holden-monaro/images/monaro-studiod2.jpg

Also, check out the story of its development here: http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/2001/011116holden-monaro/index.html

Before you pass judgment on the GTO, or the Monaro with its excellent designers, keep in mind the work that goes into a car like this.


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---Ted Krygier--&gt;

TED ONLINE (http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/)


[This message has been edited by !!!TED!!! (edited June 26, 2002).]

I think we need to step back here and stop the name calling, etc......

Most people who are voicing a dissenting opinion on the GTO only seem to be trying to make a few points:

When GM decided to use the historic moniker "GTO" this strongly implies that it would have strong ties to the original versions. Sure thay gave us a car that followed the same thought proccess as the original (no need to re-re-hash that here) BUT they gave us only the smallest visual tie-ins...dual grills....a victim of "corporate" identity. Remember Chevy tried to make all of us wear that horrid broad brushed aluminum bar in the grille (SSR, got stuck w/ it) With the success of the PT Cruiser, T-Bird, Prowler, etc... GM seems to be pertrified of committing themselves to a project, but choosing instead a defensive approach of "we're not going to invest a ton of $$ in a car that we don't even know will be accepted"....a self-fulfilling prophecy in my book. Remember the re-bodied Chevette they called the Fiero? Wasn't until the car had destroyed it's own reputation that they finally made it live up to the promises it first hit the ground with. GM has waaaaaay too many of these models in their closet....half-@$$ed efforts lead to failure time and again.

It's already been said dozens of times....if you're going to call it something that we all know......then make it familiar....otherwise simply call it something else! This goes for the Camaro too...when it comes back, it sure as hell better look like a Camaro....or just name it something else. We're NOT saying we won't buy it and learn to love it for all it does, we're just making this very point.

What it seems to me is a strong willed artist/designer (aren't they all) and a corporate culture of hiding behind the blanket of security have given us a great car in a forgettable design....with the name of a legend. (forgetting the prostituted versions of the late 70's, etc...).

Who here doesn't honestly believe that IF they had only given us the front fascia/hood that DutchInjun drew the car would have sold many times the anticipated volume? Sure they may sell all 20k........but wouldn't the really been happy with 3-4 times that?? (well maybe the UAW wouldnn't have been happy, but the rest of us and the stockholders would have been tickled).

JMHO........


[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 26, 2002).]

And what of the internet debate about the suitability of Monaro as a GTO? "My method on that one is 'grow up a bit, this is a car that will take you three or four steps above where a GTO left the market', so that's probably appropriate,"

Ah, so true! This car is gonna rock, and it will be a great GTO. I like how a person stands behind their work, and isn't just a push over when it gets a little bit of criticism.

------------------
-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6 (http://ws6bird.cz28.com/)
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Decromin:
Here ya go - straight from the Horses mouth:

"this is a car that will take you three or four steps above where a GTO left the market"
</font>

Very intsresting choice of words.. anyone remember where the GTO *left* the market? Three or four steps BELOW where its predecessors entered it. Maybe I'm just looking for something to pick apart, or maybe the guy is sincere but simply doesn't know his GTO history.

------------------
1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

I think this car is going to sell, for people who can't wait for the next camaro, who can't afford a vette and those that will not buy a mustang. If the car sells good, do you think GM is going to spend money for the 5th Gen. camaro? What happened to the SSR?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
I think we need to step back here and stop the name calling, etc......

Most people who are voicing a dissenting opinion on the GTO only seem to be trying to make a few points:

When GM decided to use the historic moniker "GTO" this strongly implies that it would have strong ties to the original versions.
It's already been said dozens of times....if you're going to call it something that we all know......then make it familiar....otherwise simply call it something else! This goes for the Camaro too...when it comes back, it sure as hell better look like a Camaro....or just name it something else. We're NOT saying we won't buy it and learn to love it for all it does, we're just making this very point.
</font>

Doug, awesome literary articulation! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif
As Yoda would be proud to say, "The Force is with you!" http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

As for many others, well... The Dark Side of the force pulls strong. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

I am getting tired of trying to explain such a simple concept. I'm not mad at all, a little frustrated, but mostly saddened. Sad because most of the people who come to a forum like this should be enthusiasts who have a passion for cars, what they are about, and where they come from. This is not exactly the make-up aisle in Wal-Mart, so in-depth car talk should be passe here. Yet so many posting in here seem not to grasp what heritage and/or legendary qualities are really about.

I wish that everyone that approves of this new GTO could spend a weekend at a Ford or Chevy Nationals event, and experience the electricity in the air when those old cars come thumping onto the track. The feeling is indescribable when you smell the burnt rubber and non-cat exhaust, and hear the roar. The respect afforded the old cars like the Cougars, Chevelles, Novas, Talladegas, Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Cudas, Challengers, etc as they all lived/died doing battle with one another was EARNED, not given by a carefree naming process.

Sermon over. Doug, thanks again for a credible and well written post of this GTO situation in defense of those passionate about "doing cars right, in every respect". http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I do think he sounds a little arrogant tho about his car. I doubt he has ever been to the GTO Nationals, or ridden in a real GTO. Nor do I think he really understands what GTO means to current American GTO owners.[/B]</font>

Actually, before the designers even lifted a pen, they gathered a group of GTOs (yes there are quite a few in Austraila) and brought them together & let everyone associated with the project to look, ride or drive, and talk to the owners and get a feel of what GTO was all about. I am also pretty sure more than a couple of them have checked in with the GTO scene here in the US. This WAS NOT done by a group of hacks.

Remember the GTO concept done by Pontiac a few years ago? The US based designers of that car had NO exposure or experience of GTO at all prior to looking at old GTOs pictures and coughing up that design which went over like a lead balloon.

Holden worked under some pretty intense guidelines (First it had to bear a Pontiac family resemblence, and Second, it had to be ready to go no later than next summer) and what they came up with, short of just throwing on Pontiac badges, is pretty amazing.

Just the same, let's save judgement till it get's over here.

So I keep seeing more and more complaints that the new GTO doesn't look like the old GTO. The old GTOs didn't even look like EACH OTHER.

The 64 and 69 GTOs don't look anything alike.

No car can please everyone, if this car would have come out looking all gaudy like a T/A then the other half wouldn't like it.

The GTO competes with the 3 series and the IS300 and the like well. As it's supposed to.

If anything, I'd like if they kept it looking exactly like the Monaro. Great looking car.

Btw, I didn't really see an arrogance in the article. Even if there was, so? Monaro is a nice looking car, people are just nitpicking based off of a sketch.

------------------
Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

It looks like a Grand Am/Prix. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif They should've chosen 1 of the years to make it look like or mixed a few in. Even if they came up with a new design that looked just a little like the current cars and not exactly would have been cooler.

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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 27, 2002).]

IZ28, a few issues.

1. The Grand Prix will be reskinned to look like the G-Force, so when the GTO is introduced, you will have two completely different looking vehicles.

2. The target group for the GTO will be an older audience unlike the Camaro/Firebird. So therefore, this less radical, more smooth styling like that of the Solstice is perfect.

3. This thing from the pictures of the HSV GTO and GTS instead of the Monaro look awesome. I have a feeling Lutz won't approve of a dull GTO and it will look something more like them. Look at your own picture you assembled in your signature. Its kinda strange how the rims on the GTO sketch looks JUST LIKE THE ONES on the HSV GTO right next to it. I wonder what else it looks like on the side.

4. I look at the HSV GTO and I saw M3. That's the reaction I think they're trying to get. Nothing wrong with that. I love it personally. But we're just not the right audience.

5. The layout of this vehicle, 2+2, RWD, V8, seems perfect for GTO. Honestly, GM is trying to get a spark to bring itself back and the excitement behind the name GTO, the power and memories it holds is perfect for this car to create excitement with Pontiac. This car perfectly fits the GTO formula.

This thing is GTO. What better name to use than GTO for GTO's 40th anniversary in 2003?

So really is this "GTO the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars? The front end will be different, have different dimensions, have a different powertrain, target market, etc. This is a different car and will be visually different than a W body. This IS GTO.

And for looking like an old GTO? That's retro styling. This is a new, modern GTO that lives to the old name. I look at a lot of cars as being targeted to a new audience. The classic muscle car enthusiast is a very small population and to sell this car you cannot cater to the small minority. This is a wider appeal car. This is meant for a NEW GENERATION to fall in love with GTO, much like 40 years ago. This car is destined to create a new liking of GTO. That's how Camaro has survived for so long until recently. The new generation of Camaro owners had to be catered to so that they would buy the car and fall in love with it like many people had before. Catering to a newer generation ensures its survival and the creation of a following. This is how heritage originates. I fully support this GTO and wish I could have one myself.
This is the new GTO.
This IS "The Muscle Car Reborn"
BTW, there are rumors floating around on this board that for now GTO is a stopgap measure but after that stopgap it might make a footing here in the United States as more than a stopgap.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Burmite:
Smarty stuff</font>

You said it so well you killed the thread. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

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Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

On the topic of the polished "Power Bar" grille bar, that's still on. I remember three years ago (IIRC), on the day they unveiled the Chevy Traverse, an interview--I think it was with Wayne Cherry--where he said that Chevrolet cars are going to start showing up with the "power bar", same as on the Traverse.

SSR Upcoming Malibu Avalanche Cavalier? (Seen concepts that look similar to the upcoming Malibu) Silverado pickup Colorado Upcoming Tahoe/Suburban


[This message has been edited by cmc (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MunchE:
You said it so well you killed the thread. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

</font>

Lol. Thanks. It's partially why I don't reply much. Whenever I do, I have a habit of killing that thread.