Why would it cost a GM employee his/her job to talk about Camaro...

It leads me to believe something is happening with our favorite car.To that end, I also beleive that some people on this board have a bit of insight.

What do you think?

They cannot say anything about future vehicles at all due to insider trading laws, I imagine.

Read through this post: http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55850

OK, here's what I have so far......
The concept of this Gag Order so intrigued me that I've gone back over every shred of information, bit and pieces of e-mails, conversations etc... to come to the following conclusions.
Others here have also mentioned parts of these conclusions.

Here's some highlights....in no particular order:

--Lutz tells the media that there is a Camaro in the future.....and then retracts it about two weeks later.

--Ritter tells several journalists and dealers that there is a future Camaro....and then retracts the statement about 20 days later.

--Reuss tells Automotive News that his group is working on a Camaro replacement....and then denies it about a week and a half later.

--Moss talks about the next gen Camaro...and then denies it later.

--Red Planet tells people that he cannot talk about the 5th gen....yet no-one believes him ...........

We've discussed ad nauseum the concept of GM somehow signing over the rights to their copyrights namesake, Camaro so that they are restricted from building the car elsewhere......but wouldn't they also have to sign over ALL of the other f-body monikers too? Not very likely........not gonna' happen.

I'm now 85%+ convinced that my comment earlier in this thread (and posted a few times before....by others too).......



quote:
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That being said, I can imagine a situation that would include a package of incentives given to GM to bring the f-body assembly to the St. Therese plant that would commit GM to the plant for a period of time and not allow the switching of location unless the model was cancelled.
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....is very, very close to the truth.

I can only imagine the wrath that would be suffered (I told you some had already lost their jobs!) by anyone at GM that would cause GM to be square in the crosshairs of the Labor Relations Board, the CAW and even some spill over to the UAW...if what I have gleaned is correct.

What else could cause even Lutz himself to retract what would otherwise be a beacon of hope for some of GM's most faithfull enthusiasts?

I'll ask all of you to please consider this and know that I didn't just pull this out of my @$$ and let's call off the dogs and drop the ram rods that we've tried to beat down GM's door with to get that small crumb of hope.

I now am nearly convinced that the main reason that we have not been told more is they CAN'T!

I also now believe that we might best consider to be careful what we ask for.....to beg, demand, contrive and try to beat an answer out of GM could be extremely counter-productive.

NO-one wants a major labor revolt at this delicate time for our economy or GM's attempt to recover from the Zarrella dark days.

I hope too that no-one thinks that I am trying to grandstand, one-up, brag or pretend to be arrogant enough to blow smoke up your collective @$$e$....I assure you nothing could be further from the truth. I didn't make this stuff up. Have a look back at everything you've read from the all the sources we have and see if you don't agree.

I know this all sounds too James Bond.....too over the top...too simplistic, but sometimes the truth is right there and you just need to clear out the smoke and see the simple facts.

Now is a time for us to be patient and look foward to the possibility that, as Red Planet has told us "Performance is not dead at GM" and comments like "Keep the Faith" just might be all that he / they can share with us, again as he's said before "In time we will all understand what is happening and the reasons behind it".

I also know for a fact that the Camaro has some very big fans in very high places at GM......but you can't turn a ship as large as GM around on a dime and you have to do the best with the mess that your predecessors left you with.......and the pennies the bean counters let you play with.....

Doesn't mean that we can't keep adding our $0.02 worth!!

I now have been given a renewed hope that we will get our 5th gen...............................in all due time......

Case in point!! :bow: :bow:

Originally posted by phantasm99
I now have been given a renewed hope that we will get our 5th gen...............................in all due time......

Sure.. I share your optimism that some of us will surely see our favorite F-body return. Personally, none of my f-bodies are coming back. :( The Solstice = Firebird rumor is the only glimmer of hope right now, but even that.. it just doesn't do anything for me. The Solstice is a whole different beast. R.I.P. Firebirds.

as much as I think and want the f-body to come back, I admit I'll be very surprised to see it in production again. GM seems to be heading more in the direction of trucks. all there car concepts lately have sucked. Who the fawk wants an SSR? NOBODY. The pontiac vibe? wth? thats no sports car.
The new GTO is the only likely replacement for the f-body from what I see... and I think its being made in Australia, and its going to be imported. what ever GM. You lost a loyal customer when you killed the f-body. Only other GM I'll ever buy at this point is the vette.

hell they are stopping production of the s-10 as well! :death:

It is pretty much how phantasm99 put it. I can't say much more than yea he is very close. There is some deeper issues with the legal end of this deal with the CAW. Things that directly prevent the people listed from talking about anything. But remember this no deal lasts forever....

So like I have said on several occasians on this borad this is the quiet time and it needs to be this way. I also said the faithfulness of every F-body owner or lover will be tested. The drought of info will long and cold, so much so that few if any current members whom inhait this board will be here when any new real news breaks.

Originally posted by 99SilverSS
So like I have said on several occasians on this borad this is the quiet time and it needs to be this way. I also said the faithfulness of every F-body owner or lover will be tested. The drought of info will long and cold, so much so that few if any current members whom inhait this board will be here when any new real news breaks.

Like I said when you posted this before I'll be here if the board is still here.;)

I'm going to buy a 05 Mustang, but I might also buy a 06/07 Camaro if GM decides to build it after the CAW mess ends in 05.

Backing up what silverSS and phantasm99 posted, the reason behind the gag order isn't that those in GM (especially Chevrolet)don't want to mention Camaro, and it's not that anyone owns the Camaro name, and it isn't that GM has forgotten Camaro. The reason they can't talk about Camaro doesn't directly have anything to do with a potential future Chevrolet Sports Coupe.

I will say look at what has already been said by GM people before it was retracted, and I'll also say Camaro is at the top of someone's priorities.

Take it from a GM basher & sacred cow prodder. GM DOES have a really good reason for not using or mentioning the Camaro name at the present time. :(

BTW, if it helps, there's an embargo on the use of the name Firebird as well.

Originally posted by guionM


Take it from a GM basher & sacred cow prodder. GM DOES have a really good reason for not using or mentioning the Camaro name at the present time. :(



Well... what exactly is the reason ... ? :p

(Feel free to IM me if you don't wanna post it ;) )

Just wanted to take a second to clarify one thing....My second post was taken from DOUG HARDEN I just copied what he had originally posted.I wish I could take credit for that information, it was however not mine.
Thanks to IZ28 for posting the link that supplied the answer to my question.:)
Since the Contract with CAW will expire in 05, is it fair to assume that looking to the 06 model year is on target?

N/p. :)

I'm betting there will still be alot of us here by 06 or 07 dude. ;)

Originally posted by guionM
Take it from a GM basher & sacred cow prodder. GM DOES have a really good reason for not using or mentioning the Camaro name at the present time. :(

BTW, if it helps, there's an embargo on the use of the name Firebird as well.

Go HERE (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42269&perpage=15&highlight=caw%20contract%20use&pagenumber=4) and go to the 4th post down...
Read very carefully, looking for the words CAW, contract, Camaro, and Firebird. Look at the post date. I got ribbed for this kind of talk in other places... even called "crazy" to think GM would lose the rights to use their "own names". Crazy?

Yeah, crazy.
Like a fox. :cool:

You know whats extremely funny about all this.We are living 63 all over again.BUT back then the Camaro and Mustang were not out yet.We know the vehicles have been around since mid 60's and we think about all the history on both cars but now we have to wait instead of having them come to market with out knowing what they are about.
In April 04 the Mustang will be introduced (provided they dont have any issues like GM did with the 70 Camaro)
It will flood the market as it first did in 64/65.And when the introduction of the new camaro comes Im sure it flood the market as it did in 67 Im sure the new intro will fall on its 40th as well.
But hey Lets not say they are following Fords lead,Just reliving the past with them.
;) :bow:

Yeah, crazy.

"I'm crazy, yeah crazy like a straw...you know crazy straws!"

That would be cool if the gag order was just to build up the excitment...That would be sweet if one month before the 2005 mustangs were to hit the dealerships, chevy just comes out with the NEW 2005 CAMARO!! to just take everyone by suprise! having front page coverage all over everything"...removed...remembered...revamped...reborn..the new 2005 camaro is back! I can picture it now...

Originally posted by ProudPony
Go HERE (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42269&perpage=15&highlight=caw%20contract%20use&pagenumber=4) and go to the 4th post down...
Read very carefully, looking for the words CAW, contract, Camaro, and Firebird. Look at the post date. I got ribbed for this kind of talk in other places... even called "crazy" to think GM would lose the rights to use their "own names". Crazy?

Yeah, crazy.
Like a fox. :cool:

GM owns the Camaro and Firebird name. ;)

Now is a time for us to be patient and look foward to the possibility that, as Red Planet has told us "Performance is not dead at GM" and comments like "Keep the Faith" just might be all that he / they can share with us, again as he's said before "In time we will all understand what is happening and the reasons behind it".

That is all well and good if Performance isn't dead. The biggest thing they are doing, which they probably have to do for said reasons, is shutting a door to us. There will come a time in a few years when still no word of Camaro or Firebird(is it still ok if we say those 2 names?) people will start looking around.

It's just like dating a chick when she doesn't put out then she keeps promising you some but doesn't you start to look around and you find something better you go. And ford WILL be there, no I don't like the CONCEPT Mustang but I know that is not the exact car. They also have more stuff coming.

I actually feel Ford is a few years ahead of GM right now in where the ball is. But not saying a thing, it's going to hurt them and I think they know that but contract BS prevents that.

I guess it is time to wait and see what happens and waiting is not one of my good points. :(

tom

Originally posted by 2K1SunsetSS
...It's just like dating a chick when she doesn't put out then she keeps promising you some but doesn't you start to look around and you find something better you go.... tom

Fair enough, and I agree.

But say in this instance, said chick has loose ends with a ex-boyfriend to tie up (perhaps shes waiting till he gets all his things out of her apartment or maybe he still lives there...though nothing is going on between them) who happens to have the potential of being a Charles Manson. Getting you involved would make things impossible. The man is definately moving out, and will soon be gone.

She could put out for you now (she has the goods, is willing, is already planning). However, things could get ugly & out of hand with the other guy if she did.

So she waits till he's completely out of the picture.

But say in this instance, said chick has loose ends with a ex-boyfriend to tie up (perhaps shes waiting till he gets all his things out of her apartment or maybe he still lives there...though nothing is going on between them) who happens to have the potential of being a Charles Manson. Getting you involved would make things impossible. The man is definately moving out, and will soon be gone.

Good metaphor... :p

guionM, So the GM, Camaro-Firebird dilema is a lot like an episode of General Hospital! :p ;)

Just think about this for those who have read "All Corvette's are Red." A 5th gen Camaro story will be much longer with many more loops, or more precisely, more knots but I can see similar endings! I hope.... :(

Originally posted by guionM
Fair enough, and I agree.

But say in this instance, said chick has loose ends with a ex-boyfriend to tie up (perhaps shes waiting till he gets all his things out of her apartment or maybe he still lives there...though nothing is going on between them) who happens to have the potential of being a Charles Manson. Getting you involved would make things impossible. The man is definately moving out, and will soon be gone.

She could put out for you now (she has the goods, is willing, is already planning). However, things could get ugly & out of hand with the other guy if she did.

So she waits till he's completely out of the picture.

So this chick with all the loose ends, and the Charlie Manson boyfriend ,who's not ready to put out for whatever reason.......she's gonna be worth it...right?!

... As the Fifth Gen Forum Turns...

:D heheh :p

Good stuff... :)

Out of curiosity... assuming there is all this stuff, woudln't it have had to have been voted on by CAW members or something?? :confused:

You'd think someone could dig something up... if not from GM's side, then by contacting the CAW and/or the Canadian/St. Therese governments (if tax breaks were involved)

Originally posted by 99SilverSS
guionM, So the GM, Camaro-Firebird dilema is a lot like an episode of General Hospital! :p ;)

Just think about this for those who have read "All Corvette's are Red." A 5th gen Camaro story will be much longer with many more loops, or more precisely, more knots but I can see similar endings! I hope.... :(

From what I understand, it could put General Hospital to shame. :D

Some time ago, RP refered us to read 'All Corvettes Are Red' to understand what was going on with Camaro. Seems the sequel may be even better! :bow:

Ste Therese, Bob Lutz, Zarella's departure, the 4th gen's multiple stays of execution, unions, Corvette, rise of Holden, SUVs, and a whole host of other subjects that seem to make the story in All Corvettes Are Red seem dull & routine by comparison.

I went to the CAW website and did some searching and found this (http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/st._therese_plant_future.asp) that talks a bit about the plant closure, (which is dated sometime back in 1998 BTW)

I also found some speeches that were from the CAW president and he says on this page (http://www.caw.ca/visual&printlibrary/speeches&briefs/speeches/speech24.asp) that their contract with the Camaro expires 2002. (With this link you have to search for the word Camaro on the page to find it unless you want to read the whole speech.)

Here it is: General Motors is closing a plant in Quebec which is the only plant that builds the Camaro and Firebird. It would not matter if it was a UAW plant or CAW plant or when the contract expired. If the company is not selling the cars the plant will close. You cannot convince me that because our agreement expires this year that is the reason General Motors is closing the Ste-Thérèse assembly plant.

:think:

I also found this:
About 80,000 of our members work in the automotive industry or did, prior to this recession and September 11. We had massive layoffs at DaimlerChrysler and layoffs coming. Immediately following September 11, General Motors announced the closure of our Ste. Therese assembly plant. This plant has been around since 1967, and averaged about 3,000 jobs over all of those years, until the last three or four years when they were building the Camaro and Firebird. The sales of this sports car started to decline and our membership numbers started to decline. A lot of work was done in bargaining in 1999, and a lot of meetings have been held with top management of General Motors, including Jack Smith, Rick Wagoner, and Maureen Kempsten Darkes, and the bargaining committee of Local 1163, and Quebec Director Luc Desnoyers. We met in Detroit. We met in Toronto. We met in Quebec, but to no avail. At the end of the day, with General Motors continuing to lose market share, we couldn't identify a product to keep this plant open.

So what does that mean? A plant closure.


Seems like they want(ed) to blame it on the economy.

Something doesn't add up, why put a gag order on a car that might or might not be built.

A contract with the St.Therese plant doesn't mean anything if it expired when they stopped making the f-bodies, but what does affect the Camaro is how the CAW affects the rest of the cars GM has built in Canada (which is a lot).

If GM said tomorrow they were going to build the Camaro they would get a political ****storm from the CAW, so corporate politics is what is affecting the Camaro's return and no other car in the GM lineup has to deal with this unique situation.

There's so much stacked against the Camaro I don't see how it could return, unless Lutz has a hard on for it. Which I doubt!:dead:

I really think GM is blowing smoke up our a$$es about a Camaro's return to just get the people who have bought other GM cars and trucks with a Camaro or Firebird from buying elsewhere.

Why do they tell us the Camaro is coming back and then retract it? To give us false hope and keep buying GM!!!

**** THAT! I'm going to Ford!!! Let me know when GM stops screwing with it's enthuiasts!:mad:

:death:

Originally posted by cobraeater
I really think GM is blowing smoke up our a$$es about a Camaro's return to just get the people who have bought other GM cars and trucks with a Camaro or Firebird from buying elsewhere.

Why do they tell us the Camaro is coming back and then retract it? To give us false hope and keep buying GM!!!

**** THAT! I'm going to Ford!!! Let me know when GM stops screwing with it's enthuiasts!:mad:

:death:

This is my point guys, more and more people will start to get this way and it could get very ugly for GM. Unless they come up with an awesome sports car that catches are eyes. One that has the looks, the power, handling and whatever else is need to yank people back. If they want to cut into the mustangs niche they have better get it right and soon.

Originally posted by guionM
Fair enough, and I agree.

But say in this instance, said chick has loose ends with a ex-boyfriend to tie up (perhaps shes waiting till he gets all his things out of her apartment or maybe he still lives there...though nothing is going on between them) who happens to have the potential of being a Charles Manson. Getting you involved would make things impossible. The man is definately moving out, and will soon be gone.

She could put out for you now (she has the goods, is willing, is already planning). However, things could get ugly & out of hand with the other guy if she did.

So she waits till he's completely out of the picture.

That sounds like a girl that's making up an excuse to use you for dates and her man for sex.

Originally posted by 2K1SunsetSS
This is my point guys, more and more people will start to get this way and it could get very ugly for GM. Unless they come up with an awesome sports car that catches are eyes. One that has the looks, the power, handling and whatever else is need to yank people back. If they want to cut into the mustangs niche they have better get it right and soon.

I agree. I think even if they dont come back with the camaro they need to bring something amazing to fill that gap and to combat that class of car from other companies...

I just want some firm, solid news. I can wait a few years as long as I know I have something to wait for.

The time will come soon that I will be in the position to buy a new car. I won't hold out more than a year from that point for a new Camaro (and that's only with an official announcement). I have my third-gens: a daily driver, and a (currently not complete) race car. When the time comes, I'll look at an RSX, a Mustang, an RX-8 (even if it is extended-cab, maybe black will hide the lines), a GTO, and whatever else happens to be out in the market the Camaro used to occupy, and pick from those choices. Call it tough love, call it lost faith, but hopefully when they see so many of us doing this, GM will call it a wake-up call.