My NAIAS Report and some GTO Musings

Here's my token NAIAS report for whatever it's worth...well I know you've been waiting Darth. ;) Give me some time and I hope guys like guionM can answer my GTO question at the end.

Let's start with Ford first.

*Mustang concept looked even more retro than it does in pictures. To me, the car is a spitting image of Eleanor from Gone in 60 Seconds. The convertable was not there so I can't comment on it. I can say after seeing those funky glowing taillights that there can't be any way they make production.

*427 is actually quite slick, it is exactly how you would expect a Ford sedan to look. The front end still appears to, ahem, "borrow" some cues from CTS or even the Mercury Mountaineer.

*New Lightning didn't look too bad, but something was kind of odd to me about the proportions of the bed. The beltline looked very high. Not sure if it was because of my vantage point or what. My friend said it was because they chopped some height off the roof, but if that's the case they really needed to lower the beltline. Maybe others who have seen it can comment. It is certainly more blocky and edgy than the current model.

Now for Dodge. Wow, what to say? I think we spent more time in the Subaru section looking at freakin' WRX's than at Dodge. They had nothing of great interest to me. Their biggest concept was the Tomahawk motorcycle, :rolleyes: a rediculous-looking piece of machinery that drew oohs and ahhs from some of the little kids standing in front of it. If that thing can possibly hit 300 MPH like the guy on the stand claimed then I'm Lee Iococca. Sorry Dodge, go pull someone else's chain.

GM

*The SS was nice, the fenders are NOT as bold as they appear in pictures, they are actually quite tasteful. The front end just doesn't sit right with me though. First thing to go would be the maligned silver bar. The front actually comes to a point which IMO doesn't look right with the smooth rounded fenders. I really liked the side profile and rear.

*G6 will make a very nice next gen Grand Am. You can see a natural progression there. It's sleek and has nice lines. For God's sake GM please offer the supercharged V6 with the same amount of power as in the showcar, just for once?

*Sixteen was unreal. Big crowd around it. I'm undecided about whether I liked the Cien of a year or two ago or Sixteen more. The thing is HUGE and has that "I'm rich and snooty" presence. Hope I can buy one someday. ;) BUILD IT! As a side note, they had the V16 on an engine stand and yikes...never saw headers quite like that!

*Finally, GTO. Here's the thing. It's nice and all, bland but nice. It's a start and I'm sure it's one great car. Unfortunately no one could get close enough to check out the car's strength, the interior. I got the general sense from those looking at it that they were all disappointed. Looking rather emotionless at the car, I started to think about this.

Most people, former GTO owners or otherwise, are demanding more agressive looks out of a new GTO. However we all know that Lutz is looking for cleaner, smoother, more elegant styling for Pontiac apparently to compete with BMW. There's a serious clash of philosophy already brewing here and I'm worried it could get ugly. My question is, does a more agressively styled GTO even "fit in" with Lutz' vision of what Pontiac should be? If not, there is no excuse for the GTO nameplate being back. Period. I had no idea I would be thinking this way just a few hours ago but now that I have seen for myself the relative disappointment in the car combined with Pontiac's new styling goals it has me singing a somewhat different tune. I would love your opinions.

I think the best thing I can do regarding the GTO is to just disregard the name altogether. It's a great car I'm sure but the General screwed up big time bringing back the musclecar designator. If I get one, it will have all GTO badging removed so that BMW driver may ask "WTF was that car that just handed my arse to me?"

I forgot one thing about Dodge, the SRT-8. It's big, I mean BIG, and uhh it's a wagon. Its redeeming feature is the Hemi. Other than that, no big news from the Dodge boys. :)

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
As a side note, they had the V16 on an engine stand and yikes...never saw headers quite like that!



V-16 Engine (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/cadillac16.JPG)
:bow: :bow:

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
*Sixteen was unreal. Big crowd around it. I'm undecided about whether I liked the Cien of a year or two ago or Sixteen more. The thing is HUGE and has that "I'm rich and snooty" presence. Hope I can buy one someday. ;) BUILD IT!



Even if they do build it I doubt you would ever see one on a road, most would probably end up in a collection.

I'd guess a sub $200K pricetag.

Wish I could get my hands on that engine though

:bow: V16:bow:

Every single report of the GTO is that the car is unspectacular and plain, just the same as myself and others expressed way before the car was ever put on display. But when we were doing it, we got stupid remarks directed to us and excuses how we weren't gonna be right. Well, guess what?! :D

I think we all can agree GM needs to get in gear and start doing things right. When will B.L.'s work and control over the company go into real effect since he is still dealing with things from before he got the job??

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
I got the general sense from those looking at it that they were all disappointed. Looking rather emotionless at the car, I started to think about this.


Add me and all 6 of my friends to the "Wow, the GTO is duller than I thought" list.

Part of the reason for this is that the general public, unlike us board members, only know the car as the new "GTO". They don't know about the high-quality interior. They don't know it's an imported sports car from Australia. Heck, many of them probably don't even know about the LS1 engine.

Everyone is thinking "GTO", "Muscle Car", "Agressive Styling", and then they see this larger cavalier shaped car with a grand prix front end and they are naturally dissapointed.

I actually think the car would have gotten better reactions if it wasn't named the GTO.

Originally posted by Z28Wilson

*Finally, GTO. Here's the thing. It's nice and all, bland but nice. It's a start and I'm sure it's one great car. Unfortunately no one could get close enough to check out the car's strength, the interior. I got the general sense from those looking at it that they were all disappointed. Looking rather emotionless at the car, I started to think about this.


I too noticed a lot of people looking blankly at the GTO.
I think its a bit boring looking myself. And Im not sure its exciting enough visually to be a GTO, even though Im sure its perfect mechanically.:think:

Great report Z28Wlison!!

As expected, I am right in line with just about all my thoughts...

:)



:bow:

It probably would have helped if people could have sat in the GTO. putting 18" rims on was a good move. There sould be tons of aftermarket parts from HSV by the time the car is out. I almost bet that Pontiac will offer an optional Ram Air style hood like they do on the Grand Am.

Nice report Mark. You know you loved the 03 cobra, mention it damnit. :D

I really think GM erred in keeping the GTO interior away from public scrutiny. Beyond the cars performance & handling, that is the highpoint.

I like muscular low keyed confortable cars that have fantastic performance and handling, but doesn't attract alot of unwanted attention, so I'll conceed that my tastes run a bit conservative in styling. That said, I'll also conceed that the GTO will seem dull to alot of people.

To answer your question Z28Wilson, this is most certainly the direction Bob Lutz is taking Pontiac. With that as a backdrop, the GTO fits right in to where it historically was. A muscular car that looked like every other Pontiac of that year.

I'm starting to believe that no nameplate should come back, because it will always have distractors that IMO rewrite history, regardless as to the facts to a particular car's history. When someone actually thinks a new 'Nova' named car 'needs to be done right', we have a very, very serious problem with reality here.

I also am begining to wonder if it was actually a good idea to send Pontiac down the road to BMW performance with Jaguar-ish styling. Jags plain bodies look good because there is tasteful chrome hung on then. Pontiac's seem to be going down the road to blandness. GTO actually is the direction of future Pontiac styling. The heavily cladded & ribbed Grand Am was normally in 1st or 2nd in total car sales at GM. I can't sneeze outside without dampening a Grand Am. Those things are everywhere! Safe to say, the excess body junk wasn't all bad.

BTW, Bob Lutz today announced the Cadillac 16 won't be produced, but that it's design would show up on an upcomming large Cadillac.

Originally posted by guionM
BTW, Bob Lutz today announced the Cadillac 16 won't be produced, but that it's design would show up on an upcomming large Cadillac.

That is disappointing. From what I've read Bob Lutz really wanted this car to become reality. Good ol' GM beancounters, my gut is they killed Cien and now Sixteen. Do they not understand the concept of image boosting vehicles? Is Ford projected to make money on the GT(40)? I doubt it.

Originally posted by guionM
I also am begining to wonder if it was actually a good idea to send Pontiac down the road to BMW performance with Jaguar-ish styling. Jags plain bodies look good because there is tasteful chrome hung on then. Pontiac's seem to be going down the road to blandness. GTO actually is the direction of future Pontiac styling.

Jaguar-ish styling? Your comparing the new GTO to Jaguar styling? The Jag's bodies are not THAT plain. They have creases and curves in the hood. The side profile's have those "sexy" jaguar curves. The headlamps and grills are not dull and plain.

Here is an example of the curves on a Jaguar sport coupe (ie not a Jaguar sedan):
http://www.jag-lovers.org/include/iv.php3?in=/brochures/xkr/xkr_poster_uk_1_s.jpg

See how sleek the rear end view is? Also, the front view is not what I would consider plain. It's not just a matter of slapping some tasteful chrome on the car to make it exciting. The actual body style and shape of the car very big factors.

Now,for example, take a look at a rear end shot of the GTO:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?010748

Do you see how stubby the GTO's rear end looks compared to the Jag? The GTO also lacks the curves of the Jag. Slapping some chrome on the GTO is NOT going to make it look as sleek or exciting as the Jag.

Take a look at some of the front end shots of the GTO. Are they as exciting as the Jag?
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/*query?ws4d_nav=true&search_criteria=gto&source=all&page=3

Originally posted by guionM
The heavily cladded & ribbed Grand Am was normally in 1st or 2nd in total car sales at GM. I can't sneeze outside without dampening a Grand Am. Those things are everywhere! Safe to say, the excess body junk wasn't all bad.



Interesting how they 'cleaned up' the current Grand Am model by stripping the ribbing cladding off.... leaving behind the ALERO doors...

So, let me get this right... in order to make Pontiac "better", they are making them look more like Olds... and Olds is be shelved permanently because of low sales. :think: :dead:

First off I'd like to comment on what Darth Xed said... I agree that it's pretty strange to just abandon the styling themes Pontiac has had. The Grand Am's for example got a major boost in 1992 when their first 'outrageous' style was introduced... and the 99 (?) - 2002 Grand Am GT's are also popular. Maybe Pontiac doesn't want to take as many risks now - styling like that either works or it flops. I agree the 2003 Grand Am seems to have lost some of its flair. We shall see what that does to sales.

Anyway, today's big excitement was taking the wifey to NAIAS. Here's what I found:

1. The new GTO is a great looking car in person. I was worried about it looking like a Cavalier, from reading stuff on the web. In person it seems significantly larger and wider than a Cav, plus its rear quarter panels are more bulging and muscular. I love the engine details, and the quad yellow leather buckets. It's no Trans Am... but it's not meant to be one. BTW for the cynics here - the car seemed well received by those standing near me.

2. I sat in the new Grand Prix, very nice interior. I like the styling details on the seats, how they come to a point and have some angles in the leather headrests. Controls were all well-placed, including the cool TAPShift buttons :cool:

3. The Chevy SS looked better in person, especially the front end. Seeing the front end there, that was the first time I could picture myself owning one as it is shaped today. The front view is about a 7.5 out of 10 on a beauty scale, side and rear views are 9/10!

4. The G6 - that car is flat out gorgeous. a 10/10 from every angle. If it comes with a HUD I will buy one someday... I read somewhere that Lutz commented at the show that it is virtually identical to the 2005 (?) Grand Am. I am actually quite surprised to feel this way about a Pontiac with no side trim, not even a spoiler, which normally I consider a must on a car (every car I've owned in the last 20 years has had a rear spoiler!). It's just a beautiful, panther-like shape, very clean, modern and powerful-looking.

5. Cadillac 16 - I really don't see what the hype is about this car. I could barely get up thru the crowd to see it, and while it is impressive in size, it looked a little overdone to me. Wheels were too big, engine too big, didn't like the bifurcated hood. I wish Caddy had spent the $$$ on a buildable car like a new Eldorado concept.

6. Buick Centieme - nice-looking inside and out. My only prayer is that if it is produced, it has real power like the concept does.

7. Chevy Equinox - a great design - I believe it will be a hit. I cannot explain it, the thing just looks right to me.

8. Chevy Cheyenne - was quite a nice looking truck and reminded me of my 1978 K5 Blazer. Wifey had to drag me away. She did not like the Cheyenne's slightly thin seats, thought they looked cheap, but I thought overall the truck would be an awesome next fullsize Chevy pickup if it happens.

9. Nissan Titan - winner of my award "vehicle with fewest people looking at it" :o

10. 2004 Nissan Maxima - had two cute little windows in the roof, looked like front and rear mini-sunroofs, plus apparently an option for two rear buckets and full-length console. I sat in the back and it was very nice! Plus it had a really neat shade of yellow-gold metallic paint and camel leather interior. Great colors.

11. I was curious about what competes with my Trans Am. So I got into some back seats of current 2+2 sporty cars. First, a 2003 Mustang Cobra. I was very disappointed - could not even sit up straight in the back seat, my head was hard up against the ceiling (I can sit up straight no problem in my TA!) Also - was disappointed in the interior quality on the Cobra. Misaligned trim where dash met door - off by a half inch! Noticeable mold parting lines on the door pull handles, which felt light and cheap. More mold parting lines on the door panel pocket, whose edge was thin and flimsy enough to make it easy to pull it out about a half inch. Yep Mustangs are affordable alright. :rolleyes: I also got into the back seat of a Infiniti G35 coupe. Actually first I had to stand there and WAAAAIT while the ever-so-slow electric seat mover slid the front passenger seat up so I could get in the back
:mad: ...I got in the back, just like the Mustang, no headroom! I'm not all that tall either, only 5'9". When I got out the next guy wanted to sit in the front, and I noticed he seemed impatient waiting for the silly seat mover to put it back... finally he squeezed in and sat down while it was still going back. Imagine waiting around for that monstrosity on a day like today in Michigan, 15F outside! :eek:

12. My best back-seat experience of the day was in a Mazda. I got in the back of the RX8... it was easy due to the doorlet. Very roomy in the back for my head. As I was getting out, a Mazda rep asked me what I thought of it. This was the first time all day any rep came up and asked ME what I thought! That was cool! Only two bummers with this car - the seat fabric has a weird, ribbed texture to it which does not seem durable and the front passenger footwell has the cat hump so many GM cynics whine about on fbodys. Oh well.

13. Mitsu Lancer Evo V - VII - VIII or whatever it is... gads that spoiler is hideous on that car. I also really dislike the multi-ventilated front end, looks like some teenagers went wild with the sawzall at their high school workshop. The louvers embedded in the hood looked like they were salvaged from the inside of a cheap kitchen oven. And the car had red paint but black & blue cloth seats (where's a barf smilie when I need one?). One corner of the hood was misaligned and touching adjacent trim. Phooey.

14. Dodge Hemi wagon - looks very nice, until you stroll around to that hideous front grille. Please fix it before production Dodge - and a news flash for you, it does not need a ram pickup grille like your trucks!

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
4. The G6 - that car is flat out gorgeous. a 10/10 from every angle.

7. Chevy Equinox - a great design - I believe it will be a hit. I cannot explain it, the thing just looks right to me.

11. I was curious about what competes with my Trans Am. So I got into some back seats of current 2+2 sporty cars.

G6: Cool. All I ever hear about that thing is rave reviews. I love it. I hope the next G/A looks exactly like it. GM listen up!

Equinox: LOL .. next to the Tracker, *anything* looks right. I agree though, the Equinox is a darn nice small SUV. I smell 150K+ units.

Back seats: Any chance you got into the back of the GTO? They say those rear buckets are roomy as hell but the steep glass is too low. Just curious.

GT

kizz - I couldn't get in the GTO since it was up on a turntable... but it appeared to have plenty of room in the back; plus the lower rear seat cushions were low like on my TA. That is what allows my TA to have adult-sized rear headroom even with its swoopy roofline.

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
BTW for the cynics here - the car seemed well received by those standing near me.

Hmmm....what time did you go to the Auto Show? I went from about 8:30 to 10:00 pm (closing time). This was when most people in their 20's and 30's were at the auto show.

Perhaps if you went in the morning, when the older crowd is usually there (the younger crowd is still sleeping, hehe), that might be why you seen the crowd more enthusiastic than the crowd when I was there.

When I was there, the Mustang got most of the attention.

I was there from 10-noon. I looked around me, it wasn't a bunch of old geezers. But also, I do not gather the GTO is aimed at gen-Y's. They generally buy Sunfire GT's. The average age of LS1 Fbody buyers is higher than maybe you think, and so will be the case for the GTO. Younger folk should stay with a weaker car, like a Mustang GT :p

Hmm, I see.


Originally posted by BigDarknFast
First, a 2003 Mustang Cobra. I was very disappointed - could not even sit up straight in the back seat, my head was hard up against the ceiling (I can sit up straight no problem in my TA!) Also - was disappointed in the interior quality on the Cobra. Misaligned trim where dash met door - off by a half inch! Noticeable mold parting lines on the door pull handles, which felt light and cheap. More mold parting lines on the door panel pocket, whose edge was thin and flimsy enough to make it easy to pull it out about a half inch. Yep Mustangs are affordable alright. :rolleyes:

Oh c'mon now:p The Mustang IS affordable PERFORMANCE, not affordable luxury, or interior amenities. I can't picture myself driving an 03 cobra, and saying: "Oh, this 390 hp is nice, but man, the dashboard is misaligned with the door by almost a half inch! And where are the woodgrain inlays? I got ripped off!"

It all related back to the GTO, really. You are most likely building your case for the GTO, but the GTO will cost several thousand dollars more than a Mustang Cobra. If you want a better quality interior, you'll be paying for it.

Originally posted by Pentatonic
I can't picture myself driving an 03 cobra, and saying: "Oh, this 390 hp is nice, but man, the dashboard is misaligned with the door by almost a half inch! And where are the woodgrain inlays? I got ripped off!"


While I don't disagree with you, those are the exact same things some people were saying about our LS1 F-bodies. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
While I don't disagree with you, those are the exact same things some people were saying about our LS1 F-bodies. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but the Mustangs are still here, and the F-bod's are gone. Maybe GM's F-bod marketing wasn't very good.:confused: Who knows.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Interesting how they 'cleaned up' the current Grand Am model by stripping the ribbing cladding off.... leaving behind the ALERO doors...

So, let me get this right... in order to make Pontiac "better", they are making them look more like Olds... and Olds is be shelved permanently because of low sales. :think: :dead:

I think the reputation and stereotypes that went along with the brands name, "Oldsmobile," were more of the reason it got axed, not poor products. For a car associatated with old people, having "old" in the name isn't going to help.

Originally posted by jrp4uc
I think the reputation and stereotypes that went along with the brands name, "Oldsmobile," were more of the reason it got axed, not poor products. For a car associatated with old people, having "old" in the name isn't going to help.

Oh, I definately agree... I think Olds offered a much more interesting lineup, than say Buick...

But, at the same time, it is kind of an odd move... making one of your best selling car's (Grand Am) look more like a car from a division that you are axing (Oldsmobile)...

:think: