ProCharger and Callies update (post some info here about your blower drive)

Ok first off I called ATI today about the broken bolt in the blower. Surprizingly they gave me a RA number and said just box it up and ship it there. I have heard tons of horror stories about their waranttee stuff so this came as a deliteful surprize this morning

Now on to Callies


Well I called and after playing phone tag for a while I got a hold of them this morning. We talked back and forth about how many miles were on it with and without the blower, how it was put together, I told him the front bearings looked brand new, and what all happened to the motor when it broke. He told me that after looking at it the timing gear looks like it make just a slight score line around the crank when it was seated. Which is no big deal 99% of the time, however for some reason this time it must have just started a stress risor and that is where it broke. He said that he had never had one break like mine did and that a race shop had just called in yesterday and it sounds like they have the same thing going on with the blown Z that they built as well (they haven't torn it apart just yet). He said out of the 3000 or so cranks they sell a year they might get 2-3 back broken for one reason or another. He is going to talk to Nu-Tek (right down the road from them, they specialize in LT1 motors http://www.nu-tekmotorsports.com/ ) and see what they have to say because they use a lot of Callies stuff as well. One of the possiblities is that they might start making a blower spec crank for LT1 motors with a BBC snout on it. One problem this might lead into is that a special crank gear will be needed, special balancer, hub, and the front cover is going to have to be machined as well for the BBC seal. We had aslo talked about going to a cogged system as well, and he agreed that it would eliminate all of the rolling stress that was caused by the tension on the 12 rib belt setups. The only problem would be a slight harmonic that was caused by the belt to pulley interacting together but said that as long as it was balanced (which Callies balances all rotating assemblies and cranks) there would be no problem with that at all. So they are going to send me back the snout and hub. He wanted me to do some hw on different pulley setups and how they work, the distances that the different blower pulleys stick out off of the crank and to see if we could find out how much tension that blower is putting on the crank.

We didn't talk about getting a replacement crankshaft just yet because we're still trying to figure out how and why it happened and to see if we can stop it from happening again but so far I must say Callies looks like a real stand up company that really wants to get to the bottom of the problem to make sure that it doesn't happen to you or anyone else again. Once I get some information about the blower setups I'm going to call him back and I guess we will go from there and see what he has found out from Nu-Tek and see if maybe a new designed crank is in order, if I just get a free one and start over with a new belt drive or what. But anyway at least we are making progress

So for those of you with Vortech and ATI blowers could you take some measurements on how the blower drives on your setups mount and how far they stick off of the front of them motor. Also if you can get some belt tension figures on the 6,8, and 12 rib belts as well as come cogged figures that would be very very very nice.



------------------
1994 1LE Z28 T56
383, 6.0" rods
GTP Stage III heads
ATI D1 15psi Intercooled
LG Motorsports suspension goodies
GrandSports 17x9.5/17x11"
http://members6.clubphoto.com/anthony545868/guest-1.phtml

Thumper: I to have a Callies crank and I will try and get the info oyu asked for.

I'm glad to hear that the 2 companies seem to be helpful and given that they only loose "2-3 cranks" a year out of 3000, one hopes they will send you a new one at no cost.

------------------
1997 T/A WS6 Con

383, ATI Procharger D1-SC @15#, relocated MAF, FLP's, Borla, Kenny Brown DD SFC's, Hal's, SLP-Springs, STB, sway bar, shifter-Lou Salzano SS, 5-point chrome roll bar, ZR1 rims, KTRE 12 bolt 3.73's. etc etc.

Best 12.30 @ 121.79- "Traction.....we have a problem"
527 RWHP / 570 lbs.

Thanks for the update. I'm really curious to find out how Callies will ultimately handle this, since I just placed an order for their Racemaster crank. Mine will be used with a Vortech S-trim to start with, and eventually a T-trim so I'm very curious what they come up with.

Mike

can someone fill me in on this...PLEASE !!!

My callies crank broke on me friday night..

I have the ATI D1 set up....When i called and told them about it, I was told that this has "NEVER" happened...

------------------
James007
1993 Z28 ProCharged 6sp
10.48@136.72w/ 1.59 60 ft

69 Camaro w/Z28 emblems
9.98 on motor
9.07 on 1 stage of NOS
8.40 on 2 stages of NOS

Sounds to me that there is a problem specific with the Callies crank, maybe incorrect heat treat, incorrect material, or something along that line. When I tore down my motor several years back, the stock hub had gouged some grooves into the crank snout, like the hub spun on the crank. I smoothed out those grooves with a die grinder. No problems yet with the stock gm LT1 crank. I have also heard the mustangs suffer the same problem, sheared off snout.

------------------
1994 Z28 LT1 6 SPD, ATI P600B BLOWER 10# TWIN INTERCOOLED, Speed Pro pistons/rings, PAW H-beam rods, GM HOTCAM Home-Ported LT1 heads, Relocated MAF, FLP headers, custom exhaust w/magnaflow mufflers
Modified fuel system w/42 lb/hr Bosch injectors, Mallory pump, Paxton regulator, AQP stainless braided hoses
MSD digital 6+ ignition, wires, GM 1LE driveshaft, Wolf 6pt roll bar, stock rearend,
Centerline 17" wheels
Dynoed @
478 RWHP & 480 RWTQ
with old exhaust setup
New dyno soon w/flp's

I don't know what is going on with it right now. It does sound like they want to help out with the problem but I want to know how many people its happened to and why it is happening. To me, after looking at the main bearings in the motor there wasn't a lot of side loading on it, or at least not enough to break the crank.

Ok I talked to Callies again last week.

He said that it looked like the crank gear was 'digging' into the crank shaft because it didn't have a big enough chamfer on it to clear the radius on the crankshaft (keep in mind I took the crank gear off before I sent them the snout). This caused a slight stress risor here and if it wasn't for the increased load of the blower pulling on the end of the crank it would not have broken off.

Now...I didn't have the gear in front of me when I was talking to him but I went back out and checked it out myself. Its a Cloyes gear and has a HUGE chamfer on it and comes no where close to the radius on the crankshaft. Secondly if it was digging into the crank and the blower was helping it do that, wouldn't that be like them admitting that the crank has flex in it? Now granted I'm sure that the force of the blower pulley is going to put some forces on the front of the crankshaft but enough that the timing gear can cut into it? And if it did wouldn't that just make one point since the gear is turning with the crank and not on its own?

Anyway I need to call them back one more time to see what happens this go around.


Anyone find any info on belt tension and dims?

Sent you an email on this too....



What was the outcome on 1LEThumper broke crank nose on his Supercharged 1994 Z28?

I too broke a crank nose but it was on a stock cast crank and only running 8psi of boost...it did have 120K miles on the engine though...30K with the SC on.

I'm building a all forged 4340 bottom end but saw your post...yikes! Going to do one of the following may two:

1. light weight Fluidampr dampner (recommend by Scat)
2. Go to a clog belt setup so less tension is on the second SC pulley from the drive pulley.
3. Install a second tensioner so there is more belt contact on the rib pulley.

Here is my post over at the PA truck fourm with detailed pictures!
http://www.pacific-audio.com/performance/messages/196304.html

Sincerely,
Ken
1996 GMC K1500 4x4 3dr pickup 14.10@95.5mph with old 350 engine...building a 383 all forged bottom end right now :)
http://www.kctrading.net/sierra/

I think I spoke with you before.. I snapped the snout off the Stock Crank with an ATI D1 and 12-rib.. Broke Right at the timing gear too.. Interesting things we have noted here.. I really believe that ATI's tensioning system is a joke.. It puts WAY too much pressure on that snout.. SD-Concepts makes one that is supposed to be top notch.. I'm getting one of those shortly..

--Sean

Originally posted by Sean94Z
I think I spoke with you before.. I snapped the snout off the Stock Crank with an ATI D1 and 12-rib.. Broke Right at the timing gear too.. Interesting things we have noted here.. I really believe that ATI's tensioning system is a joke.. It puts WAY too much pressure on that snout.. SD-Concepts makes one that is supposed to be top notch.. I'm getting one of those shortly..

--Sean

Do you have a website for them?

Ken

So as i see it, there are THREE peeps that have had a Callies crank with an ATI D1 blower and the crank has broken.!!!!!!!

This scares the CRAP out of me.

Why is this happening.

I would like to know as you can imagine, it seems that it could as easily happen to me.

Any response from Callies. they providing replacement cranks?

Originally posted by 97TA-WS6-Con
So as i see it, there are THREE peeps that have had a Callies crank with an ATI D1 blower and the crank has broken.!!!!!!!

This scares the CRAP out of me.

Why is this happening.

I would like to know as you can imagine, it seems that it could as easily happen to me.

Any response from Callies. they providing replacement cranks?

And not just ATI blowers but Vortech units as well...they all share one thing in common and that is they use a second crank pulley! You don't hear this problem with Whipple or Paxton that use the stock crank pulley...have you?

I know of two other guys that broke off there crank nose on L31 vortec engines that were using a Vortech supercharger besides me....now we need to see who's got some high mileage on a high boost setup with no falures and copy what they have done.

Before I hook the blower back on to my new 383 engine I'm going to first get a light weight fluidampr dampner and install a clog belt system, also going to have them double key the crank...I think these three items are the key...as you got to remember a superchager take HP away from the engine...how much?....

With 8 psi of boost after the intercooler an ATI is drawing 58! 11.5psi about 74+HP...running 15psi approx 90HP and when you have a ribbed belt pulling on a second pulley that sticks way out there's got to be some deflection which can also cause some imbalance. An AC compressor draws about 15-20HP....

Here is proof on the HP consumption:
http://www.procharger.com/h2hdt.shtml

Ken
http://www.kctrading.net/sierra/

Ken,

www.sd-concepts.com


No pictures up yet.. Costs around $400-$500 with labor, you need to send them your brackets and pulleys..

--Sean

Originally posted by Sean94Z
Ken,

www.sd-concepts.com


No pictures up yet.. Costs around $400-$500 with labor, you need to send them your brackets and pulleys..

--Sean

Got any pics of your setup you can post? :)

Ken

Well here is what I know so far from Callies and a couple other places. The entire rotating assembly was from Callies and I was using a ATI damper on the crank. The ATI D1SC blower was using a 15 psi 12 rib belt and I was seeing some slipping around 10psi or so. I do not think that the belt was to tight
and the bearings came out looking like new when I tore it apart. I (and Callies) think that the crank timing gear was not clearanced enough for the larger radius's on the crank. This combined with the stress from the blower I think did most of the damage. I also broke the input shaft on the blower as
well but I don't know what broke first. I do not know how both could have broken at the same time. The blower was fixed under warantee from ATI. The crank I had to just get replaced. This was my first stroker blower motor that had done myself so it might have been a couple of things put together that caused it to break but no one can say for sure. I am having the 'new'
bottom end put together by Nick and NuTek so hopefully it will not break again. I am also going to be using a cog setup on it, or at least try to.

If you do use a cog setup I don't think you want a lot of
belt wrap on it. With the reg. ribbed belts you want to get as much around it as you can. Also get a new tensioner because The ATI one isn't that

Ken,

I haven't gotten the tensioner yet.. I am going to do it, just haven't had a chance yet.. Oh well, soon enough I guess.. I asked for pics a few weeks ago and didn't get many replies..

--Sean

Originally posted by 97TA-WS6-Con
So as i see it, there are THREE peeps that have had a Callies crank with an ATI D1 blower and the crank has broken.!!!!!!!

This scares the CRAP out of me.

Why is this happening.

I would like to know as you can imagine, it seems that it could as easily happen to me.

Any response from Callies. they providing replacement cranks?
Actually, there has only been one broken crank snout....... the one belonging to 1LEThumper. The other one mentioned in his previous post, and the one claimed by james007moore are the same one, and were in fact a failed dampner, not a crank problem. I know this because i built his engine about 3 years ago, and he contacted me thinking the snout had broken. He then called back a few days later explaining what he found upon disassembly. Between his first call and his second, I had already been in contact with Callies, which was at the same time of 1LEThumpers problem.
Here's a link to pics & explanation of 1LEThumper's crank breakage, as it's at my shop, and has been thoroughly examined by Duane Boes at Callies. He's a design engineer, and has a lot of experience at failure analysis.
http://www.nu-tekmotorsports.com/customer%20cars%202.htm
Hope this helps clear things up a little.
Nick Norris

Thanks Nick

I appreciate you taking the time to clear that up. One hopes that 'thumper' was a one of situation then.

Of course then I have to find out about the dampener problem. LOL

Thanks for posting the pic up Nick, I have been meaning to do that for a long time now but since I'm about 1000miles away from school, and the car its hard to do.

It isn't much of an area that came into contact with the crankshaft but it does cause a pretty big stress risor there.

Callies did a very good job of working with me on sorting out the problem with the crank and what happened to it as a result. Nick was/is extremely helpful in getting the whole mess sorted out and back together. Hopefully it doesn't happen again.


Like I said this was my first blower/stroker combo that I had done by myself and I didn't think that there would be a problem there. I knew that the bearings needed to be chamfered but I didn't know on the timing gear.

Oh well live and learn I guess.



I agree on the damper stud as well, Nick. I had a 8" stud in the crank before and it went out to the damper but I didn't have a washer and nut all the way out to the blower pulley itself. This time with the ATI damper, and longer stud and new belt setup I hope to get rid of a lot of the problems that was going on with it before.

Originally posted by 1LEThumper
Well here is what I know so far from Callies and a couple other places. The entire rotating assembly was from Callies and I was using a ATI damper on the crank. The ATI D1SC blower was using a 15 psi 12 rib belt and I was seeing some slipping around 10psi or so. I do not think that the belt was to tight
and the bearings came out looking like new when I tore it apart. I (and Callies) think that the crank timing gear was not clearanced enough for the larger radius's on the crank. This combined with the stress from the blower I think did most of the damage. I also broke the input shaft on the blower as
well but I don't know what broke first. I do not know how both could have broken at the same time. The blower was fixed under warantee from ATI. The crank I had to just get replaced. This was my first stroker blower motor that had done myself so it might have been a couple of things put together that caused it to break but no one can say for sure. I am having the 'new'
bottom end put together by Nick and NuTek so hopefully it will not break again. I am also going to be using a cog setup on it, or at least try to.

If you do use a cog setup I don't think you want a lot of
belt wrap on it. With the reg. ribbed belts you want to get as much around it as you can. Also get a new tensioner because The ATI one isn't that

Anthony what did your break? Where you on it showing off like me ;)

I had my buddy over who also has a SC Tahoe and we drove his first then mine...we was video mine when it let go...if you listen carefully you can he it let go right at the end of the video!

http://204.250.250.27/kctrading/96K1500-blowing-engine.mov

He was almost in tears when it went...but I told him it would of let go if not now the next time I got on it.

Also funny thing is that it had a bit of ping when I first took off and it never did that before with the huge intercooler that I have...it was also a little down on power on that run as we also had a Tazzo hooked up (like a g-tech) to checking the 0-60mph

Ken

No, I wasn't showing off. The car was way out of tune to be showing off.

I had been cruising around that night trying to get the driveablity worked out on it.

It broke going about 30mph and 2500rpm, nothing more. It was about 1am and I was trying to keep it quiet driving home.

Originally posted by 1LEThumper
No, I wasn't showing off. The car was way out of tune to be showing off.

I had been cruising around that night trying to get the driveablity worked out on it.

It broke going about 30mph and 2500rpm, nothing more. It was about 1am and I was trying to keep it quiet driving home.

Wow! it must of been partially broken and finally broke...when looking at my crank it almost looks polished in 2/3 of one area with the other 1/3 rough.....

Reminds me when I had my 1968 GTO with a 400 engine and the nylon timing teeth decided to let go at idle mine you....and bent every valve in the engine! Guess it could of been worse and let go at red line :)

Did ATI ever say anything about the shaft breaking off on there supercharger? I've never heard of one breaking....did you get any pics on it?

Also thinking of getting an extra key in the crank and dampner...what do you guys think?

Ken

Just asked me what happened to it that was about it. From the outside about the only thing you could tell was that the center bolt holding the blower pulley on was gone.

Yeah I know what you mean about those timing chains....dad had it break on his '70 GTO, boy if that wasn't one of better ideas GM had :rolleyes:

Update:

Here is what I have decide to do to keep the crank snout from breaking again...

1. use a 4340 steel crank
2. double key the crank and dampner
3. Street fluid dampnr
4. Switch from two belt system to a single sc belt accessory system....you can buy a brand new bracket installation kit from vortech for $221...I have one on the way :)...this also gets rid of 5 lbs of extra rotating weight and keeps the leverage off the crank nose.

Ken

I elmininated any possibillity of crank snout breakage completley with one word,,,,,, turbo hehe. ;)

Mike

Originally posted by Mikey 97Z M6
I elmininated any possibillity of crank snout breakage completley with one word,,,,,, turbo hehe. ;)

Mike

I'd love to go with twin turbos if they made a kit that was calif. smog legal!

Ken

Just curious for those that had the breakage.. were your cranks keyed, or just running the stock, pressfit style dampener?

Originally posted by texlurch
Just curious for those that had the breakage.. were your cranks keyed, or just running the stock, pressfit style dampener?

Mine was a stock single keyed crank broke right at the radius:

http://64.246.6.99/~admin6/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39997

Ken

Ken,

Damn, just looked at your sig on that other forum. You got that big huge truck to pull a 14.1@95mph, that's pretty impressive really! I bet you've surprised more than a few quick cars eh! :D

Mike

Originally posted by Mikey 97Z M6
Ken,

Damn, just looked at your sig on that other forum. You got that big huge truck to pull a 14.1@95mph, that's pretty impressive really! I bet you've surprised more than a few quick cars eh! :D

Mike

Should be in the low 13's to high 12's once I get the 383 installed :)

I would of perfered a lite weight car with the engine in it but I can only afford one...can do just about anything in the 4x4 truck and haul 6 people to boot :)

Ken

For those that are still interested, the story continues. The latest 'theory' on why it broke was this.

We think that the blower locked up or something in it broke first because the input shaft on it broke as well. We think when this broke it started to create a vibration (which I felt while driving it trying to get it home that night, felt like it was loading up like it had been) close to my apartment it started to shake really badly and once I pulled into the drive and started towards home I shifted into 3rd around 2200rpm and it just made some noises, the lights on the dash came on and it would not restart. I looked in the rearview for oil and I saw the blower belt come off. Once I got it home I found the crank pulley to not be attached to anything. As was shown in the pictures above it broke right behind the timing gear. Now the timing gear probably had something to do with all of it. I kinda wonder if the crank wouldn't have broken even with it shaking like it was with the blower messed up, but I do think that the vibration caused some of the other stuff that happened.

Total damage was: Callies Racemaster 383 crank, ATI D1SC, 2 collapsed piston skirts, 16 bent valves, 9 guides totaled.


Currently the long block is being assembled by Nick at Nu-Tek MotorSport and is going to be a solid roller motor this time, so the motor should not have any problems. I am currently talking with SD Concepts for a stronger blower bracket and tensioner assembly. So with any luck it should be done, assembled, tuned and running on a track by June. (crossing my fingers)

Thanks for the update. I was wondering.

Rich Krause

You know what.................................

We are all freakin' mad.


:)

Thanks for all of the updates. I dont have a blower, but I am getting a callies crank and building a 396. A d1sc might go on down the road, but very far down the road. I guess I am lucky that ati is close to my house, and I have several buddies that work there.

Hope everything works out ok for ya.:)

Originally posted by 1LEThumper
For those that are still interested, the story continues. The latest 'theory' on why it broke was this.



Good to hear you are progressing! I keep adding to my 383 build up as well...right now I have the vortec heads in the shop getting over size stainless steel valves with some porting work.

Are you still going to be running 15psi of boost?

Ken

I'm going to do my best to try and keep it right around 12-15psi.

I have been back and forth with SD these last couple days trying to figure out the bracket and tensioner issues I had with it last time it was running. There really shouldn't be any reason why it wouldn't be on the road by the first of June. At least I hope it doesn't take me that long to get everything back in the car and find someone to tune it by then.

Its been like 2 years since I have driven my car with out having to worry about something breaking.....or something actually going wrong with it. I forget what it was like to actualy go out and beat on the thing....it would be nice to have a fast car and actualy be able to drive it the way it was ment to. :(

Good luck, make sure the new motor is nice and loose.

Well its been a while and the car is almost back together, so instead of starting a new thread I thought I would just add to this one if anyone is interested in what happened to it......Took a while to sort out most of the problems that came up when it broke.

It'll probably be a couple more weeks before the car hits the dyno but for the most part everything is done.

A few changes I made to hopefully solve all of the other small problems it had include....
Racetronix fuel kit
new solid roller cam (244/257 .611/.609) to replace the 306
REV lightweight valves, new springs, locs and retainers
T&D shaft mount 1.6 rockers
SD Concepts modified bracket and tensioner (highly recomended if you are using a ATI kit)
Solid intake pipe (currently being made at a local shop)
Solid pipe from intercoolers to TB
The long block was assembled by Nick Norris at Nu-Tek

Other changes have been removal of the heater and duct work, stereo and other un-needed items ;) , much larger braking system and some new sticky Yoko RR tires.

So hopefully here in the next few weeks I can have some new pics of it up along with some dyno numbers.....and if everything works out some video of the car at the track in Texas with the guys from LG :D

What does the modified tensioner and bracket do? How is it "modified"?

Thanks.

Rich Krause

The tensioner is converted over to a spring loaded style tensioner instead of the fixed style tensioner offered by ATI. They use your current blower bracket and modify it to incorporate their spring loaded tensioner. I also would highly recommend going this route. My car made 14psi of boost with a 6-rib belt with not no belt slippage.

Well you got the modified tensioner correct.

As for the modified bracket...I was having issues with the bracket flexing, hell I could see it move just by pushing up on the belt when it was on the car. So Scott put did some bracing on it. There is a strap that goes from the pass side across the bottom of the blower thru 2 of its mounting holes. Then there is an additional piece stuck on the drivers side with a steel rod that bolts to it, then to the bottom of the coil bracket to brace the outside of the blower to tie it into the rest of the bracket.

I'm running the 12 rib setup on my car and had all kinds of issues with it when it was just the ATI setup, now its much easier to to put the belt on the car, along with that there is a much more even and constant load placed on the belt where as before it was what ever the ATI tensioner wanted to do that day.