Nissan does worse than GM, Toyota/Honda worse than Ford

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/02/by-the-numbers-november-2008-brother-can-you-spare-a-dime-ed/

I wish the news would talk about how bad Nissan and the rest of Japan are doing and stop focusing only on the Big 3

BMW Group -26.8%
Chrysler LLC -47%
FoMoCo -30.6%
General Motors -41.3%
Honda America -31.6%
Nissan NA -42.2%
Toyota Mo Co -33.9%

Have you checked out a world map lately and noticed which country you live in?

i believe i'm suppose to insert some sort of uninformed media bias comment here.

oh wait this is the lounge and not the automotive news/future vehicles forum

:D

It might, just might, have something to do with the fact none of them have asked for a bailout. With talks of coughing up more money to bail out non-productive companies, it's hard to focus on the guys doing a better job.

Nissan has a larger market cap than Ford/GM combined. Toyota has a larger market cap than pretty much all the automakers combined.

It might, just might, have something to do with the fact none of them have asked for a bailout. With talks of coughing up more money to bail out non-productive companies, it's hard to focus on the guys doing a better job.
and thats the problem every one thinks the 3 big suck ass make ****ty cars/trucks and now complain that they shouldnt of put so much money into trucks/suvs when guess what NO ONE COMPLAINED BEFORE THIS "DEPRESSION" HAPPENED OR BEFORE GAS PRICES WENT UP! so whos fault is it really? the big 3 or the AMERICAN PEOPLE who bought the bigs 3s large trucks and SUV's and made them so profitable more so then small cars

I don't think Nissan, toyota, or Honda are potentially facing bankruptcy, that's probably a big part of it.

and to quote Shock for the Kayne West post

The blame lays as much with us as anyone.

the us market wanted the large trucks and suvs and didnt care about gas mileage etc but now a "depression has hit and gas prices are up and people are now bitching "OMG it only gets 12 MPG" yea considering it weighs 6k and has a V8....

Its all about marketshare, that is a tell tale sign of the future to come to the big 3.

... so whos fault is it really? the big 3 or the AMERICAN PEOPLE who bought the bigs 3s large trucks and SUV's and made them so profitable more so then small cars

the big 3

i didn't see toyota, honda, et al exactly failing in the 90's by making small cars. they managed to figure out how to make small cars for a profit, the big 3 didn't and abandoned the market to the competition.

then the market shifts just like it has in the past and guess who got caught with their collective pants down...

the big 3

i didn't see toyota, honda, et al exactly failing in the 90's by making small cars. they managed to figure out how to make small cars for a profit, the big 3 didn't and abandoned the market to the competition.

then the market shifts just like it has in the past and guess who got caught with their collective pants down...
yet again who wanted the large trucks and SUVs tho? we the AMERICAN PEOPLE did... GM was trying to do small cars but when they saw people bought their large trucks and suvs before small cars their priorities changed

yet again who wanted the large trucks and SUVs tho? we the AMERICAN PEOPLE did... GM was trying to do small cars but when they saw people bought their large trucks and suvs before small cars their priorities changed
so by your reasoning no one bought small cars and toyota, honda, et al all were on the brink of collapse and its some sort of miracle they didn't go out of business?

It is sad how they let themselves get into this situation. They can blame the economy as much as they want, but the fact remains that they didn't see the writing on the wall with fuel prices, and they didn't care about the quality of the product that they were putting on the road.
To top it all off, GM is dropping to 4 brands-Chevy, GMC, Buick and Cadillac. It amazes me that they are even keeping GMC. It makes perfect sense to have 2 divisions that make pickups, and to drop Pontiac/Saturn that focus on cars/fuel efficient SUVs.

so by your reasoning no one bought small cars and toyota, honda, et al all were on the brink of collapse and its some sort of miracle they didn't go out of business?

the big 3 saw it more profitable to sell trucks and suvs over small cars period that is business if you had a store andonly had 2 items for sell and sold out of ITEM A but never ITEM B which do you think you should supply more for your customers?

yet again who wanted the large trucks and SUVs tho? we the AMERICAN PEOPLE did... GM was trying to do small cars but when they saw people bought their large trucks and suvs before small cars their priorities changed

But...

Honda, Toyota, etc for some reason saw that eventually, efficiency would prevail. Thus, they invested more into fuel efficient cars. The big 3? they were drunk with ignorance. It was not the american people's fault that the big 3 were so ignorant, they could not see that gas prices generally have an upward trend.

:)

yet again who wanted the large trucks and SUVs tho? we the AMERICAN PEOPLE did... GM was trying to do small cars but when they saw people bought their large trucks and suvs before small cars their priorities changed

And? Many companies go out of business for that same reason every year. Why are any of the big 3 any different? Part of running a business and making that big money is to keep an eye on trends and try to be ahead of the game, right?


They failed, again.

the big 3 saw it more profitable to sell trucks and suvs over small cars period that is business if you had a store and 2 items and sold out of one item but never the other which do you think you should supply more for your customers?

This is true, but a good business owner knows that any product, it does not matter how profitable, eventually will be replaced.

A little thing called forecasting. The big 3 should learn it. :)

the big 3 saw it more profitable to sell trucks and suvs over small cars period that is business if you had a store andonly had 2 items for sell and sold out of ITEM A but never ITEM B which do you think you should supply more for your customers?
you left out the part on how the guy across the street was selling the hell out of ITEM B and making good profits doing it but yet they ignored that fact and branded it unprofitable.

yet again who wanted the large trucks and SUVs tho? we the AMERICAN PEOPLE did... GM was trying to do small cars but when they saw people bought their large trucks and suvs before small cars their priorities changed

In the past the big 3 had something in all parts of the market. This time they put everything into the most profitable part. The market and fuel priced did what they occasionally do. As was mentioned, they were caught with their collective pants down without anything strong in the market segments where they need to be.

the big 3 saw it more profitable to sell trucks and suvs over small cars period that is business if you had a store andonly had 2 items for sell and sold out of ITEM A but never ITEM B which do you think you should supply more for your customers?

Economic downturns aren't anything new. Neither are fuel price spikes. Did they honestly think that these possibilities were extinct?

Even in the 70s, the big 3 had small cars and even the Camaro grew in sales because it was small & economical (by standards of the day). This time around, even Chrysler... a company that has ALWAYS had small economical cars in their lineup... hasn't a single vehicle smaller than a midsize. A less than great midsize.

(

What's this bull****? GM wasn't the only one making SUV in the 90s. Off the top of my head: what about Toyota with the 4Runner and Passport, Honda with the Passport, Nissan with the Pathfinder?

What's this bull****? GM wasn't the only one making SUV in the 90s. Off the top of my head: what about Toyota with the 4Runner and Passport, Honda with the Passport, Nissan with the Pathfinder?

A niche segment for them. The bulk of their attention was in their cars.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/02/by-the-numbers-november-2008-brother-can-you-spare-a-dime-ed/

I wish the news would talk about how bad Nissan and the rest of Japan are doing and stop focusing only on the Big 3

BMW Group -26.8%
Chrysler LLC -47%
FoMoCo -30.6%
General Motors -41.3%
Honda America -31.6%
Nissan NA -42.2%
Toyota Mo Co -33.9%
Be careful what you wish for...and you need to be careful with stats; they don't always say what you think they say. One might also suggest that you spend at least as much time looking at the YTD numbers as you do looking at sales year on year if you really want to have an idea of how the various manufacturers are doing

In case you missed it...

BMW: -6.8%
CHRYSLER: -27.7%
FORD: -20.6%
GM: -21.9%
Honda: -5.4%
NISSAN: -9.1%
TOYOTA: -13.4%

Makes the picture a little more clear doesn't it?

Put another way, companies like BMW, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. are likely looking at a lackluster year and significantly reduced Net Incomes (but still with a Net Income) while Chrysler, Ford and GM are looking at continuing, large Net Losses.

Per: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081202/ANA05/812029986/1078

In the same vein that you can talk about the Detroit 3 chasing the easy money of the truck/SUV sales............... you can also talk about the banks chasing the easy money of the mortgage and home sales bubble.

It is the same. The difference is, the banks and investors get a huge, next to no strings attached bailout. The Detroit 3 look for $25 billion in a bridge loan, and get thrown to the wolves.

They all made mistakes.

According to some, we should just take the automakers out back and shoot them all. The banks................. well................. I guess we will throw more money at them when they come whining again.

yet again who wanted the large trucks and SUVs tho? we the AMERICAN PEOPLE did... GM was trying to do small cars but when they saw people bought their large trucks and suvs before small cars their priorities changed

And there are plenty of people NOT bitching, driving said suv's lovin' em'. It is exactly what the people wanted. This notion that they don't build what the people want is complete BS. People will still buy big suv's! They don't build what the ******** want to force everyone to buy is more like it! People like to spend time in their cars, some people like space inside their vehicles. And sometimes people like to bring other people too, maybe even some equipment based around whatever their hobbies might be. For this they NEED a big vehicle, and they are with V8's and everything, but people in this country want V8 power, and for what they are, the MPG is pretty dam good these days. What people don't want, is to be mandated into tiny little electric ****boxes! The gov't has mandated the big 3 to death over the years, but this could be the straw.

Be careful what you wish for...and you need to be careful with stats; they don't always say what you think they say. One might also suggest that you spend at least as much time looking at the YTD numbers as you do looking at sales year on year if you really want to have an idea of how the various manufacturers are doing

In case you missed it...

BMW: -6.8%
CHRYSLER: -27.7%
FORD: -20.6%
GM: -21.9%
Honda: -5.4%
NISSAN: -9.1%
TOYOTA: -13.4%

Makes the picture a little more clear doesn't it?

Put another way, companies like BMW, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. are likely looking at a lackluster year and significantly reduced Net Incomes (but still with a Net Income) while Chrysler, Ford and GM are looking at continuing, large Net Losses.

Per: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081202/ANA05/812029986/1078


The lower numbers for the quarter also come at a time when Toyota had 0% financing as well and now Nissan has it. Nobody is selling cars right now, no matter what you make or what kind of deals you have.

The interesting thing about Chrysler's numbers is that 16% of that 47% number was a pre-planned reduction in fleet sales. Retail was down 31%...the same as Toyota. Their fleet sales were down a whopping 63%.

Interestingly, Chrysler's RETAIL market share has gone up from a low of 7.6% in July or August to 9.9% in November...proof trucks and SUVs are coming back a little bit.

very misleading thread title.

Sales for the quarter, thats all that is. If you want to counter argue the health of the companies then bring in the balance sheets, etc.

The lower numbers for the quarter also come at a time when Toyota had 0% financing as well and now Nissan has it. Nobody is selling cars right now, no matter what you make or what kind of deals you have.
No offense to you personally but I'm really getting tired of the "nobody is selling cars right now" mantra...it's old...and it's simply not true.

10-11 million units per year is hardly "nothing".

Yes, the market is very weak compared to prior years (why did everyone assume it would stay at historically high levels forever?).

Yes, credit is difficult to come by for poor credit risks (as it should be).

Yes, we are in a recession (as if they never happen).

Yes, the stock market is in the toilet right now (as if THAT has never happened before)!.

People need to get a grip...most people are at least as well off or even better off TODAY as they were at this time LAST YEAR...meaning that unless YOU are or are about to become unemployed (or facing some other challenge that has nothing to do with the economy); you have no reason to participate in this now declared recession.

Be cautions/spend your money wisely? Sure.

Make some investment adjustments? Maybe (but only after taking a long, long candid look at you investment portfolio (if you have a sound investment strategy you probably don't need to "adjust"; you just need to buy because things are on sale right now).

Reduce/get out of debt? Absolutely (unless you like having a weight around your neck).

But there is no reason to succumb to the Chicken Little Sky is Falling mentality going around right now!

the big 3 saw it more profitable to sell trucks and suvs over small cars period that is business if you had a store andonly had 2 items for sell and sold out of ITEM A but never ITEM B which do you think you should supply more for your customers?

Always, always have a plan B down your product pipeline.

Good companies don't respond to trends, they set them. Toyota makes a great maytag and managed to strengthen its brand selling bland, unremarkable grocery getters. Surprise, that's the largest chunk of the market.

Good companies don't respond to trends, they set them.


and anticipate them.

And there are plenty of people NOT bitching, driving said suv's lovin' em'. It is exactly what the people wanted.

This is a very true statement, in my opinion at least. My mom drives a Hemi Durango and loves it. It doesn't get stellar fuel mileage, but for a vehicle its size and power, it does alright.

This is a very true statement, in my opinion at least. My mom drives a Hemi Durango and loves it. It doesn't get stellar fuel mileage, but for a vehicle its size and power, it does alright.

There are lots of people out there, who bought them and would buy one again, because that's exactly what they need!! Imposing on the people what they "should" be driving, IMO is un-American! It won't stop with what we drive either. This country is in serious trouble folks....serious trouble!!!

But...

Honda, Toyota, etc for some reason saw that eventually, efficiency would prevail. Thus, they invested more into fuel efficient cars. The big 3? they were drunk with ignorance. It was not the american people's fault that the big 3 were so ignorant, they could not see that gas prices generally have an upward trend.

:)


They didn't predict jack ****. Honda wanted in on the truck money by adding the Ridgeline and upsizing all of their SUV's and cars over the years. Nissan wanted in too. They brought out the Titan, Armada, and their twins as well as upsized all of their cars/suv's. Toyota? Spent BILLIONS on the Tundra/Sequoia, upsized the Tacoma/4 runner, added the FJ to the line up, the huge ass Land Cruiser is still around, and for the most part have upsized every vehicle they make by a lot.

The reason they could jump to the front of the line in the US market when gas prices went sky high? Their HOME market. Think about it. Japan has a very competitive home market, and one that's not even open to foreigners! We all know how competitive the Japanese can be (meant in a good way.) Japan's automakers have had to build what the Japanese people want as well, which is small, efficient, vehicles. So all Japan had to do was bring them over here.

Not rocket science. Japan was no more prepared for the fuel crises as anyone else was, they just happened to have many years of experience and product already in place when the **** hit the fan.

The mistake the big 3 made was not having their cars "US ready" in all their markets. Japan was because they sell the same/similar cars in the US market as they do in Japan.

If the US home market was like Japan's, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in now. We didn't want detroit to build small cars, hell, most of us (including me) made fun of them/still make fun of people who drive small cars, etc. It wasn't too long ago we were all crying for a larger RWD Impala with a big honkin' V-8, not a 4 cylinder XFE Cruze!

One more note... the Prius? Total luck. What if fuel prices went crazy when GM had the EV-1? Who would we be referring to as the Genious then? Honda also had their insight about that time as well. I think Toyota did have something, but I can't recall what it was, but the EV-1 and Insight were the most notable at the time that I can remember.

They didn't predict jack ****. Honda wanted in on the truck money by adding the Ridgeline and upsizing all of their SUV's and cars over the years. Nissan wanted in too. They brought out the Titan, Armada, and their twins as well as upsized all of their cars/suv's. Toyota? Spent BILLIONS on the Tundra/Sequoia, upsized the Tacoma/4 runner, added the FJ to the line up, the huge ass Land Cruiser is still around, and for the most part have upsized every vehicle they make by a lot.

The reason they could jump to the front of the line in the US market when gas prices went sky high? Their HOME market. Think about it. Japan has a very competitive home market, and one that's not even open to foreigners! Japan's automakers have had to build what the Japanese people want as well, which is small, efficient, vehicles. So all Japan had to do was bring them over here.

Not rocket science. Japan was no more prepared for the fuel crises as anyone else was, they just happened to have many years of experience and product already in place when the **** hit the fan.

The mistake the big 3 made was not having their cars "US ready" in all their markets. Japan was because they sell the same/similar cars in the US market as they do in Japan.
Yes...all manufacturers have been "upsizing" their vehicles (my God, when I compare my '93 F150 to one of today's models it's like 50% larger) but what the transplants didn't do was get into the truck/SUV market while abandoning their cars.

I think your argument about Asian automakers simply bringing product "over here" is simply not true...most do offer essentially the same vehicles in all their markets but I don't think there is any models made in Japan (and not here) that have been brought in when gas prices went "sky high"? There may have been one or two but I honestly can't think of any off hand...can you?

They may have not been specifically in Japan, but when fuel prices went up vehicles like the Fit and Yaris were brought over. Toyota will also be bringing the IQ and Venza soon, I believe both are sold in/will be sold in Japan. The two most notables that have been here (and over there) for a long time have been the Civic and Corolla. If they hadn't been so popular world wide, would they have been popular here? Would they even be here? Look at civic/corolla sales from even around 2004/2005 compared to now. They were selling about 230-250K/year each and are currently on pace to sell 350K or so each this year. If it wasn't for high fuel prices, would american's really want to drive those cars?

My point was, because of their "home market" the Japanise have been "forced" to build efficient and smaller vehicles for many many years whereas in the US all we cared about was size (large) and power (big!)

Heck, look at EVERYTHING we have. It's all huge. Most people live in a house that's way too big, with huge TV's, some have big swimming pools, usually at least one SUV or minivan in the driveway, our restaurants give large portions when we eat out, and most fast food places give you the opportunity to supersize it! We've been a nation of "the bigger the better" for a long ass time while Japan has been a nation of "Efficiency" for just as long/longer.

They may have not been specifically in Japan, but when fuel prices went up vehicles like the Fit and Yaris were brought over. Toyota will also be bringing the IQ and Venza soon, I believe both are sold in/will be sold in Japan. The two most notables that have been here (and over there) for a long time have been the Civic and Corolla. If they hadn't been so popular world wide, would they have been popular here? Would they even be here? Look at civic/corolla sales from even around 2004/2005 compared to now. They were selling about 230-250K/year each and are currently on pace to sell 350K or so each this year. If it wasn't for high fuel prices, would american's really want to drive those cars?

My point was, because of their "home market" the Japanise have been "forced" to build efficient and smaller vehicles for many many years whereas in the US all we cared about was size (large) and power (big!)

Heck, look at EVERYTHING we have. It's all huge. Most people live in a house that's way too big, with huge TV's, some have big swimming pools, usually at least one SUV or minivan in the driveway, our restaurants give large portions when we eat out, and most fast food places give you the opportunity to supersize it! We've been a nation of "the bigger the better" for a long ass time while Japan has been a nation of "Efficiency" for just as long/longer.
Now wait just a minute…

I know that other people are guilty of having stuff they don’t need but I need my three bedroom/two bath home (even though I live alone except for my hound) and I need my 67” high def TV; Blue-ray player, Dolby 5.1 channel Bose sound system and two brand new vehicles. :)

Getting back to Japan's vehicles; it is true that Japan (like Europe and most of the rest of the world for that matter) have a lot more expertise and choices in "small" vehicles and in a sense, have been "forced" into building those types of vehicles because of difference between the U.S. and the rest of the world.

That said, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that as an explanation for the import's increasing share of the U.S. TVM...recent spikes in fuel prices have certainly helped small/efficient car sales a lot recently but the overall slide of the Detroit Three (in loosing market share) has been going on for quite a lone time now.

Be careful what you wish for...and you need to be careful with stats; they don't always say what you think they say. One might also suggest that you spend at least as much time looking at the YTD numbers as you do looking at sales year on year if you really want to have an idea of how the various manufacturers are doing

In case you missed it...

BMW: -6.8%
CHRYSLER: -27.7%
FORD: -20.6%
GM: -21.9%
Honda: -5.4%
NISSAN: -9.1%
TOYOTA: -13.4%

Makes the picture a little more clear doesn't it?

Put another way, companies like BMW, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. are likely looking at a lackluster year and significantly reduced Net Incomes (but still with a Net Income) while Chrysler, Ford and GM are looking at continuing, large Net Losses.

Per: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081202/ANA05/812029986/1078

Bingo. Bingo bingo bingo. Sales are down across the board because Americans, as a general rule, aren't buying as many new cars lately.

When you look at the overall hit and the overall health of the companies listed, it's clear that pretty much all but the American Automakers will likely weather the storm.

We can argue about products until we're all blue in the face, but the fact is that the formerly Big 3 are now, and have been on the losing end of the market. It's that simple. Make up your own reasons, but the rest of the car manufacturers will likely push through this without huge restructuring or bailout. This isn't a "this year" problem for American automakers...this is the culmination of years of poor financial planning and inattentiveness to trends.

Isn't the Acura TSX the foreign market Honda Accord?

Isn't the Acura TSX the foreign market Honda Accord?
I don't think so.

I think the "Accord", whatever it might be called in Japan is still differentiated from the Acura TSX (I don't know their entire line-up but Acura became a brand name this year in Japan and Europe for the first time).

Isn't the Acura TSX.....just another POS! <<<There fixed that for ya!

Isn't the Acura TSX.....just another POS! <<<There fixed that for ya!

Do you bring anything to the table?

Isn't the Acura TSX the foreign market Honda Accord?

It's the European Accord.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/entry_luxury/2009_acura_tsx_european_honda_accord_auto_shows

It's the European Accord.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/entry_luxury/2009_acura_tsx_european_honda_accord_auto_shows

Thank you.
That's what I thought.

And that's just one example of the ability of the foreign automakers to just bring to the U.S. a car they already have elsewhere to fill a spot here in this country. Pretty smart if you ask me.

That's another problem for the Big 3 (or at least the Big 2). All the cars they built for their overseas markets should have been certified for the U.S.
So that, if needed (such as NOW), they could simply put these cars on a boat and have them here.
They build a lot of good stuff overseas and it would have probably helped over the past year.