Possible GTO-like engine situation?

I'm planning on buying the 5th gen shortly after it comes out, but I'm a little worried that a similar engine situation with the first-year GTOs may occur. I'm referring to the '04 GTOs having the LS1, and the '05s got the LS2. If the 5th gen switches to Gen V motors a year or two after release, I'm going to be a little disappointed. Any of the "winky club" want to provide some insight on this?

LS1 engines ran better than the LS2. I believe that is why they how have the LS3s. Engines size and models change all the time based on demand. I was surprised with the Chevy trucks went from a 5.7 to the 5.3. There is only one constant thing in the universe and that is change. If you want it. Go and get it and don't look back. If you are always going to want the next big thing then a lease might not be a bad option for you. I would be very suprised to see a bigger engine than the 6.2 in the Camaro ever. They might add forced air, but you can always get something bigger, better, and cheaper else where.

LS1 engines ran better than the LS2.

Can you expound on this a little bit, please?

Thanks.

My 'expoundation' is that the LS2 ran better since it was like a 2001 LS6 heads and valvetrain wise with increased displacement.

Can you expound on this a little bit, please?

Thanks.

I don't know what he's getting at exactly, but i can verify that good/better running LS1s can outrun the lesser of the LS2 cars, which is the same for any car really.

Even though my car is one of the freak among freaks, i wouldn't go so far as to make a blanket statement that all LS1 GTos run like mine. I would say that Ls2 GTOs do not run as well as the 50hp paper advantage implies. In general i think they only dyno 30hp or so better to the wheels, and track mph in general only seems to be 2-3mph better on average. Also don't forget that the LS2 cars ALL have horrendous TQ managment form the factory, even the 6 speeds. This is a big factor in their track times. all GTOs are sesnitive to heat soak via the IAT spark correction table, but LS2 cars are that much worse then the LS1 cars too.

Also, FWIW, Ls2 cars are prone to more problems then the LS1. Some seem to eat oil a lot worse then any Ls1/LS6 did. The electronic throttle pedal in them is also complete junk, WAY too many posts on ls1gto about "what does reduced performance mode" mean.

To the OP, there will always be something 'better' down the road. It depends on how much value you put on having what you want *now* as opposed to having something maybe a little better later. I bought my 04 late in the year when i already knew about all the changes for the 05, and i have never regretted it at all.

For example, maybe the 2011/12 camaro will have a few more HP. But maybe it will also have a new ECM that's not cracked so you won't be able to get any tuning done, nor will you be able to remove TQ management. That's what happened to the LS2 GTO folks for teh first year or more (and the C6 vette), and it could easily happen again.

More likely you will see a '93 Camaro situation. In '94 the Camaro got an electronically controlled auto, stronger manual, new ECM, went from speed density to MAF, revised fuel rail, and I am sure plenty of other things. None of these made the car a lot better, but it means there are a lot of LT1 mods that don't work on the '93. There is a similar list of changes for the 98 to 99 and up LS1 cars, 82-83 Camaro, 67 to 68 to 69 Camaros.

I can see what the OP is saying. I will be pissed if I fork over $35-$40k for the new convertible with whatever V8 is available, then the next year they bump the base V8 by 50hp. (Like they did to the GTO) AND the SSR.

I can see what the OP is saying. I will be pissed if I fork over $35-$40k for the new convertible with whatever V8 is available, then the next year they bump the base V8 by 50hp. (Like they did to the GTO) AND the SSR.
GTO and SSR kinda got knocked in the reviews (more so the latter). I kinda doubt anyone is going to complain about "only" 400HP, especially with a top dog car on the horizon. It sounds like GM learned the lesson.

I'm planning on buying the 5th gen shortly after it comes out, but I'm a little worried that a similar engine situation with the first-year GTOs may occur. I'm referring to the '04 GTOs having the LS1, and the '05s got the LS2. If the 5th gen switches to Gen V motors a year or two after release, I'm going to be a little disappointed. Any of the "winky club" want to provide some insight on this?

Get the car you want, and stop worrying about things like that.

If you are concerned about a later model having a little more power a couple of years after you buy your model, then your're buying a car for the wrong reason if not the wrong car.

The 2004 GTOs were excellent cars, and actually sold in far greater numbers than subsequent years due to GM getting a handle on dealer scalping and adding GTO to incentives starting in September (sales jumped from 6-900 to over 2000 per month).

What made later GTOs better IMO, was NOT the LS2 (which got inferior mileage than the LS1, with only slight gains in performance), but the vast array of improvements such as better and bigger brakes, a better rear facia design with duals that exit on both sides (the 2004 GTo's system was also dual...though exiting on one side... and had a much better sound), and the purely visual options of hood scoops and body add-ons.

As a package, the 2004 GTO was a in some ways better than the 2005. But no one would be saying that if the only difference was just the LS2.

The GTO was a rebadged car.

The Camaro is "all new." I'd be very surprised to see a V-8 engine "change" during the model run. It's already rumored to have mega horse power and the Z28 coming a year later with even more ponies. I could see it tuned or programmed better after the first year or two? This car is being very well thought out.

What I *could* see happening is the choice of V-6's getting swapped around...

I would think the Camaro will follow the engine lines of the base Corvette as it has done in the past. So if the base Vette gets an engine change after the LS3 I would think the Camaro would follow suit. There should be some warning like when the Vette went up to LT1 and then LS1 in '92 and '97 and the Camaro followed soon after in '93 and '98 respectively.

Keep in mind people, the 350cid small block V8 was originally exclusively available only in the Camaro (1967 "SS") while other engine options were available across the Chevy line-up. This is not to say the same thing will happen in 2010, but there's no saying that it won't happen. :D

Yeah the poor Corvette had to make do with the venerable 327 for a little while, even though the Camaro got the 350.

Don't think this will happen in the future though. The economies seem such that it is likely to be largely the same engine.

I don't know what he's getting at exactly, but i can verify that good/better running LS1s can outrun the lesser of the LS2 cars, which is the same for any car really.
If you're referring to a comparison between an LS1 F-body and an LS2 GTO (don't know of any other "lesser" car), then I'll agree they are close. But that's not a real good comparison, as they are two different motors in two different cars. What I was asking is how does and LS1 (the motor) run better than an LS2 (the motor)? The only performance vehicle that both motors have been in (in the US) are the GTO and the Vette. LS2 GTOs are measurably quicker than LS1 GTOs. Ditto the Vette.

Even though my car is one of the freak among freaks, i wouldn't go so far as to make a blanket statement that all LS1 GTos run like mine. I would say that Ls2 GTOs do not run as well as the 50hp paper advantage implies. In general i think they only dyno 30hp or so better to the wheels, and track mph in general only seems to be 2-3mph better on average. Also don't forget that the LS2 cars ALL have horrendous TQ managment form the factory, even the 6 speeds. This is a big factor in their track times. all GTOs are sesnitive to heat soak via the IAT spark correction table, but LS2 cars are that much worse then the LS1 cars too.
First, I don't believe in "factory freaks". Freak drivers, freak tracks, freak weather conditions, all those freaks combining on freak days....sure. Factory freaks? Nope.

Second, I think a good average RWHP difference is ~40 RWHP (305 to 345).

Finally, TQ management is specific to a year of car, and cannot be used to justify that an "LS1 engines run better than LS2 engines".

Also, FWIW, Ls2 cars are prone to more problems then the LS1. Some seem to eat oil a lot worse then any Ls1/LS6 did. The electronic throttle pedal in them is also complete junk, WAY too many posts on ls1gto about "what does reduced performance mode" mean.
Ok, I'll take your word for all of that. Does that explain how/why an LS1 engine runs better than an LS2?

I guess I'll have to disagree, and if given the chance, I'd gladly take an LS2 over an LS1 - everything else being equal.

First, I don't believe in "factory freaks". Freak drivers, freak tracks, freak weather conditions, all those freaks combining on freak days....sure. Factory freaks? Nope.

I agree with that 100%. That, and "freak" (incorrect/manipulated) dyno's.

I agree with that 100%. That, and "freak" (incorrect/manipulated) dyno's.
Nobody wants to talk about dynos inaccuracies and imprecision on the internet, especially bolt on manual owners ;)

If you're referring to a comparison between an LS1 F-body and an LS2 GTO (don't know of any other "lesser" car), then I'll agree they are close. But that's not a real good comparison, as they are two different motors in two different cars. What I was asking is how does and LS1 (the motor) run better than an LS2 (the motor)? The only performance vehicle that both motors have been in (in the US) are the GTO and the Vette. LS2 GTOs are measurably quicker than LS1 GTOs. Ditto the Vette.

First, I don't believe in "factory freaks". Freak drivers, freak tracks, freak weather conditions, all those freaks combining on freak days....sure. Factory freaks? Nope.

Bob, i know you have years of racing experience, so i have no idea why you'd say this. My car does not have much done to it, i ran my first 12.9 @ 110 when i just had the high flow cats and MAF pipe, still on the stock tune. The pass afterwards i didn't get as good a launch and ran a 13.0 @ 110 with an LS2 A4 GTO with just a cat back that ran 13.6 @ 106.

Maybe i'm just an incredible driver. Or then again, i can look at what happened at a local GTO dyno day...http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74582

I accidentally swapped my HP/TQ numbers on the board, but note that i put my the same RWHP as 2 of the LS2 cars, and they both had at least cat backs and CAIs, i think one was an A4 the other M6. The only LS1s that made more power had at least cams in them. The 2 LS1 cars immediately above and below me (and some others) had LT headers and other mods, yet i still put down more RWHP. btw, i'm aware the numbers seem low, but the important thing is, it was the same dyno, same day with the same correction factors.

Same day, same conditions, my car simply made way more HP then it had any right too. And its track times back it up. I'd love to believe i'm just an incredible driver, and jesus raised teh barometric pressure in my stock air filter box to make it put down the numbers it does, but let's be realistic.

What makes a freak? I dunno, maybe i lucked into a thin pair f head gaskets, intake and exhaust manifolds that lined up perfect with the head ports, perfectly matched rocker ratios, perfectly fitting/sealing pistons, some nice loose bearings, maybe my tranny and rear are looser then most. Beats me. But you've been around race tracks enough to know that 'stock' class racers using 'stock' parts can make a lot more power then you'd expect because of painstaking detail in matching things up when they assemble their engines. Looking for exactly the kind of matching parts i mentioned above in stacks of 'stock' take out. Or are you going to tell me you've never met anyone who mic'd 50 stock mustang 5.0 cams looking for the one with the best numbers in the factory tolerances?

Finally, TQ management is specific to a year of car, and cannot be used to justify that an "LS1 engines run better than LS2 engines".

Yeah, no ****. And we're 'specifically' talking about 04 vs. 05/06 GTOs in this thread. And it's a fact that the 05/06 cars have much more invasive TQ management then the 04s, especially on the M6, which the 04 has none but the 05/06 does.

Ok, I'll take your word for all of that. Does that explain how/why an LS1 engine runs better than an LS2?

I guess I'll have to disagree, and if given the chance, I'd gladly take an LS2 over an LS1 - everything else being equal.

Fair enough. The LS2 certainly has more potential but stock for stock, it's not 50hp faster. List below is from ls1gto. There's 5mph difference between the fastest mph LS2 and slowest mph LS1s, more like 3mph on average (108 to 105). True, different tracks, drivers, conditions, etc, but i think the data is pretty clear.

LS2 Stock Classes:
2) NYTIGER 12.920 @ 109.40 MPH
3) Boilermaker GTO 12.9299 @ 106.89 MPH
4) 05torridred60 12.971 @ 108 MPH - SAP mufflers
5) jumbojet 12.974 @ 108.08 MPH
6) BlackSheep 12.98 @ 108 MPH
7) GTOboss 13.007 @ 108.52mph
8) KYGTO 13.035 @ 108.96 MPH
9) Judgethis05 13.036 @ 108.72
10) hookmechanic 13.074 @ 106.76 MPH
11) SLoW SHO 13.082 @ 108.15
12) SloNlo 13.086 @ 108.75 MPH
13) Aerobirdmotorsports 13.098@106.91
14) TheCamel 13.112 @ 108.49 MPH
15) BadGTO 13.14 @ 104.99 MPH

LS1 Stock class:

1) Nutiger 13.025 @ 108.31
2) H82BSLOGTO 13.09 @ 105.00 MPH
3) ls1gto 13.10 @ 107.3 MPH
4) TRU GTO 13.136 @ 105.76 MPH
5) GTwhoa 13.15 @ 105.35 MPH
6) nutiger 13.245 @ 104.86 MPH
7) GTONEWB 13.248 105.99 MPH
8) slammin86 13.27 @ 105.46 MPH
9) nikivee 13.3 @ 104.00 MPH
10) 1meangoat 13.307 @ 104.61 MPH
11) Nmbr1GMfan 13.390 @ 104.54 MPH
12) win98nogood 13.393 @ 105.10 MPH

Edited to tone down my response.

I don't believe in "factory freaks" because of my racing experience, not in spite of it. I've seen a bone stock 98 Cobra run 107 mph. Bone stock - down to the tires and air filter and factory oil. Think about that for a sec. There was a good reason for it. Was it a factory freak?

Were you on a load-bearing dyno? Was everybody's engine cool? Was anybody's? Regardless, that post on LS1GTO.com is a good example of why the dyno should be used for what it was intended to be used for: a tuning tool. I'll agree that some cars run better than others, but I would suggest that the actual power difference is along the lines of ~3%. Certainly not enough for a stock LS1 to make the same 400 HP as a stock LS2.

And it sounds like you a very good driver. I'll defer to my earlier statement about freak air, freak track, freak drivers, etc.

Yes, Factory Stock and NHRA stock eliminator racers absolutely "shop" stock parts. Some are better than others. But they are typically looking for 4 or 5 HP worth of difference at that point. Literally.

I am not argueing that the LS1 GTO is capable of running within a couple of tenths of the LS2 GTO. That is more a function of the car (as you point out) than the engine. My point was related solely to the engine. The LS2 engine is still more powerful, and IMHO, superior to the LS1 in virtually every respect. This was central reason for my entrance into this thread.

Bob

Hm. And here I figured he meant that the reliability of the LS1's was better than for the LS2's....

Maybe he did. If so, I have not researched that enough to make any educated comments on it.

I can see what the OP is saying. I will be pissed if I fork over $35-$40k for the new convertible with whatever V8 is available, then the next year they bump the base V8 by 50hp. (Like they did to the GTO) AND the SSR.

Why?

I'm glad I have the LS1, I didnt want the Ls2 since it was new and I knew the LS1 had a history since it was already out 9 years when I bought my car!

As it turns out, the LS2 was only produced 3 years then droped..... why? Either way, I'm glad with my decision and dont look back wanting more or a different engine.

Why?

I'm glad I have the LS1, I didnt want the Ls2 since it was new and I knew the LS1 had a history since it was already out 9 years when I bought my car!

As it turns out, the LS2 was only produced 3 years then droped..... why? Either way, I'm glad with my decision and dont look back wanting more or a different engine.

This isn't just about the LS1 vs LS2, it's about spending that much money on a car and the following year it get's "one upped" making you feel like you should have waited. When I buy the first convertible I can get with the biggest engine available, I reasonably expect it to remain unchanged (power wise) for about 3 years, so when the power bump comes I'm about ready to trade in. Image the poor slobs that bought a 1985 Grand National. Then the 86 and 87's came out with intercoolers and a LOT more power. Keep in mind that 84 was the first year for those. But the 84's and 85's weren't anything special. But the 86's and especially the 87's acheived cult status.

This isn't just about the LS1 vs LS2, it's about spending that much money on a car and the following year it get's "one upped" making you feel like you should have waited. When I buy the first convertible I can get with the biggest engine available, I reasonably expect it to remain unchanged (power wise) for about 3 years, so when the power bump comes I'm about ready to trade in. Image the poor slobs that bought a 1985 Grand National. Then the 86 and 87's came out with intercoolers and a LOT more power. Keep in mind that 84 was the first year for those. But the 84's and 85's weren't anything special. But the 86's and especially the 87's acheived cult status.

And again, I argue that if one buying a new car is worried about being one upped on horsepower a year or two or three in the future probally shouldn't be buying a new car in the first place because they are buying for the wrong reason. They should buy a used car and change engines as frequently as their hearts content.

The first and key reasons for buying a new car should always be because it fits your needs and you want that car. If it's mead well and offers a great value, you aren't going to give a hoot if it gets a 30 or 50 horsepower jump the next year.

Also, no car maker is ever going to publically say if they are going to up horsepower the following year. In fact, they are likely to keep it secret till the last possible moment. Chrysler 5.7 Hemis are going up to 370hp and 400 lbs/ft of torque this fall. How would that affect the 2007 Charger R/T buyer if Chrysler had let that out, say, a year and a half ago??

Also, horsepower outputs are state secrets nowadays, especially in performance cars. GM is in no way, shape, form, or fashion gonna let known (if at all within their power) what Camaro's horsepower is going to be until it's too late for the competition to react. Neither is Ford, or Chrysler, or Toyota, or BMW.

So, again, don't worry about being one upped the following year.

If you want the car, buy the car.

I agree with you on many levels. I understand that GM isn't going to announce that the 2011 Camaro will have X more power than the 2010. But if I pay upwards of 40 Grand for the new Camaro convertible and the V8 of the same level the FOLLOWING year is throwing down 50 more horsepower I'm going to be pi$$ed. Period. I understand the Top Dog is another deal all together. I'm talking about equally equipted cars. Say 2010 Z28 to 2011 Z28. Now I don't feel that the 2010 Camaro Convertible will be "UNDER POWERED" like say the first SSR's were. So it won't sting as much. It's not like they are going to put the L76 361hp engine in the first year and then FINALLY drop in the LS3 with 430 hp in the next year. But THAT would pi$$ me off tremendously if they did.

Personally, I think waiting to buy a new Camaro with a Gen5 engine might be exactly what I'll do. I won't be in a financial situation to buy a new car a year from now anyway, so I might as well wait a whole year and see what new options pop up. :)

If, at that point, they're still not on the Gen5, then maybe I can pick up a year-old '10 model to hold me over. :)

i think the Z28 will have the 361HP engine, then i think they'll introduce the 405HP version the next year or so as an SS. Just like the G8, kinda makes sense since its built on the same platform that they will have the same engines available right?

Also, no car maker is ever going to publically say if they are going to up horsepower the following year. In fact, they are likely to keep it secret till the last possible moment. Chrysler 5.7 Hemis are going up to 370hp and 400 lbs/ft of torque this fall. How would that affect the 2007 Charger R/T buyer if Chrysler had let that out, say, a year and a half ago??

I think your both in agreement but from different points of view. You’re saying that car companies keep hp numbers secret because of competition and because of a potential sales dips in the current model. I think he is saying that should he be one of those unfortunate to have purchased a vehicle only to be one upped the next year by a different engine or just more power that he would be annoyed. I can't blame him for that.

I wouldn't loose any sleep if I bought a 2007 Explorer or Impala and I found out later that the 2008 models now have more power. However, I would be quite annoyed to be say the proud owner of a 1997 LT1 Z28 only to be upped by the 1998 LS1 F-bodies and their “advertised” 20hp increase in power... :shock: Not that I would know anything about this first hand. ... :mad:

I think your both in agreement but from different points of view. You’re saying that car companies keep hp numbers secret because of competition and because of a potential sales dips in the current model. I think he is saying that should he be one of those unfortunate to have purchased a vehicle only to be one upped the next year by a different engine or just more power that he would be annoyed. I can't blame him for that.

I wouldn't loose any sleep if I bought a 2007 Explorer or Impala and I found out later that the 2008 models now have more power. However, I would be quite annoyed to be say the proud owner of a 1997 LT1 Z28 only to be upped by the 1998 LS1 F-bodies and their “advertised” 20hp increase in power... :shock: Not that I would know anything about this first hand. ... :mad:

The difference is that the 1997 was the 4th year of the LT1 Camaro. So the 98 LS1 upgrade was on time. So those that bought the 93 to be the first with the 4th gen weren't screwed the very next year. (unlike first year GTO and SSR owners). I want whatever V8 they decide to stick in the Camaro to be there for at least 3 years before a major upgrade in power. (except of course for the top dog model which we already know is coming) That puts forth a challenge to GM to forcast BEFORE they release the 5th Gen what the competition will be and plan accordingly. (And I don't think 361hp will cut it.) And not wing it on the fly the next year. Wishful thinking I know.

The difference is that the 1997 was the 4th year of the LT1 Camaro. So the 98 LS1 upgrade was on time. So those that bought the 93 to be the first with the 4th gen weren't screwed the very next year. (unlike first year GTO and SSR owners). I want whatever V8 they decide to stick in the Camaro to be there for at least 3 years before a major upgrade in power. (except of course for the top dog model which we already know is coming) That puts forth a challenge to GM to forcast BEFORE they release the 5th Gen what the competition will be and plan accordingly. (And I don't think 361hp will cut it.) And not wing it on the fly the next year. Wishful thinking I know.

The only thing I can say about this is to keep a close eye out here on this site. I think we will know much more about GM's plans for engine or power far more in advance than I did w/o the net in '97.... once the Camaro hits the streets of course.

I don't think there is any protection from GM placing the new and better SBC in the Camaro when it's available. I think it's safe to say the base engine in the Vette is very likely to be the one in the Camaro either the same year or the next. Note that all recent changes in Vette engine be it LT1, LS1, LS2 and now LS3 have trickled down to other performance vehicles at GM soon after. It's just timing more than GM saying the LT1 will be used for the first 4 years of F-body production and then the LS1 takes over. GM wasn't going to continue LT1 production just for the F-body.

I do think the Camaro will be safe from any engine upgrade from say the LS3 for a few years. Timing for the C7 is around 2011 and if GM follows the intro of the C5 and C6 with a new base engine for a new gen. that will give the Camaro 3 years of LS3 time before moving up to the next Vette base engine.

I've had both. Give me the LS2 ANY DAY!!

......... That puts forth a challenge to GM to forcast BEFORE they release the 5th Gen what the competition will be and plan accordingly. (And I don't think 361hp will cut it.) And not wing it on the fly the next year. Wishful thinking I know.

361HP puts it right in Mustang GT territory (assuming the mustang gets a jump in power) so it shouldnt be very surpirsing if the base V8 (z28) is the L76 and the upgrade (SS?) is the LS3 variant that the GXP will have.

If the Camaro is released with the LS3 as expected the only change in the immediate future is the release of the supercharged Camaro. But with that release the base V8will remain.
I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon, but what do I know? (<--- you get a ?-mark, no winky ;) )