The internet and spy shots

Similar subject different voice:
From Automotive News 14Jan08 p. 42

"General Motors design chief Ed Welburn has a message for folks fuming and fretting on the Internet that the 2009 Chevy Camaro will have a cheesy interior:

Chill out.

"It's a great interior. I'm not worried about it. The comments upset me because they are based on little information, no information or the wrong information,'' Welburn says.

After spy photos showing the unfinished interior of a Camaro test mule showed up on several Web sites, Camaro fans peppered the GM blog, fastlane.gmblogs.com, with complaints. They didn't like what they saw and fear GM's reborn pony car will have an inferior interior.

"If that's the interior, I want my deposit back,'' wrote one. "Just plain hideous,'' fumed another.

Don't sweat it, says Welburn.

Of the images circulating on the Internet, Welburn says: "They are development pieces. They don't have the right finishes, and some things are taped in place. It's an engineering vehicle.''

He says the new car will use the same basic interior style and design as the concept car, which got good reviews when it was introduced at the Detroit auto show in 2006. But he says the surfaces and precise placement of the controls have been refined.

>>>>

Kind of kills the talk that it's "only a group of 10" on this site that complained about the interior design, if Welburn feels he needs to address it. :)

Of the images circulating on the Internet, Welburn says: "They are development pieces. They don't have the right finishes, and some things are taped in place. It's an engineering vehicle.''

He says the new car will use the same basic interior style and design as the concept car

Design. Design, design, design. Does no one get it? Ed, we ALL understand it isn't the finished product. It's the general DESIGN that is killing many of us.:bang:

I dont know what/see whats so bad about the "design" you have two main gauges tach and speed. there in pods with more digital information between them(im betting fuel, and temp etc). then you have the reduntant "cool" factor gauges on the center console. its all pretty slick.

what I dont get is if everyone hated the "design" why didnt any of this come up once we saw the concepts design? If we are talking stricly "design" then wheres the issues and why havent we already hashed the out like we did EVERY other aspect of the car? **** we even have threads on the damn gas cap placement! if this was really people bitching about the "design" then we seriously would have already had this conversation but its not, its people thinking they know what is going to look like and basing there judgement on an unfinished pricture.

what I dont get is if everyone hated the "design" why didnt any of this come up once we saw the concepts design?

It did. See Z284ever's comments about the group he went with to NAIAS 2006.

I won't go into all the things I dislike about what I see in the spy pictures, it's been done in other threads and I almost don't have the energy for it anymore. :)

It did. See Z284ever's comments about the group he went with to NAIAS 2006.

I won't go into all the things I dislike about what I see in the spy pictures, it's been done in other threads and I almost don't have the energy for it anymore. :)

I dont know man, all this bitching is annoying. I stood around both the hard top and the vert and never once heard anyone say they didnt like the interior. every comment I heard was people say WOW, or thats sweet, or I hope they make it like this!

I think this is a mute point because no matter how much the haters complain they arent going to change it..... and personally Im happy for that!

It did. See Z284ever's comments about the group he went with to NAIAS 2006.

I won't go into all the things I dislike about what I see in the spy pictures, it's been done in other threads and I almost don't have the energy for it anymore. :)

I made a big mistake at the unveiling. After all was said and done, the lead interior designer came to find me. With a big smile on his face he said, "So how'd you like the interior Charlie"? I didn't have the heart to tell him I hated it, I should have.

I made a big mistake at the unveiling. After all was said and done, the lead interior designer came to find me. With a big smile on his face he said, "So how'd you like the interior Charlie"? I didn't have the heart to tell him I hated it, I should have.

I could understand that being uncomfortable. Talk about a 'push poll'!

Kind of kills the talk that it's "only a group of 10" on this site that complained about the interior design, if Welburn feels he needs to address it. :)
Design. Design, design, design. Does no one get it? Ed, we ALL understand it isn't the finished product. It's the general DESIGN that is killing many of us.:bang:


I agree the complaints were on the style not the fit and finish. And if Mr. Welburn is making a statement then this issue has certainly gone up the ranks.
I know when I first saw the concept car I swooned over the exterior styling and somehow just glanced at the interior and figured GM would change it. Looking back I don't know why I thought GM would keep the exterior and change the interior but thats what popped into my head first seeing the car. I just didn't think the interior matched the exterior style and maybe thought GM knew that. :shrug:

I'll reserve final judgement for the production car. As if we get what was seen in the spy pics and the design that Mr. Wellburn stated then color and fit and finish can go a long way to make it look and feel better.

I agree the complaints were on the style not the fit and finish. And if Mr. Welburn is making a statement then this issue has certainly gone up the ranks.
I know when I first saw the concept car I swooned over the exterior styling and somehow just glanced at the interior and figured GM would change it. Looking back I don't know why I thought GM would keep the exterior and change the interior but thats what popped into my head first seeing the car. I just didn't think the interior matched the exterior style and maybe thought GM knew that. :shrug:

I'll reserve final judgement for the production car. As if we get what was seen in the spy pics and the design that Mr. Wellburn stated then color and fit and finish can go a long way to make it look and feel better.

I felt exactly the same way. I never thought they'd actually keep that bizarro interior. I just never took it seriously.

Kind of kills the talk that it's "only a group of 10" on this site that complained about the interior design, if Welburn feels he needs to address it. :)

I made the 'group of 10' statement. I wish you would not quote me out of context. That was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the vocal minority on this board, who have made a hobby of wringing their hands over the new Camaro's weight, interior, gas cap location, 'chunkyness' ( :rolleyes: ), model naming (Z28 vs SS vs Z/28 etc) and so on ad nauseum. Whether it's ten, twenty, or a hundred - it's still obvious people are a little too free to criticize when they are tucked safely behind their keyboards.

Design. Design, design, design. Does no one get it? Ed, we ALL understand it isn't the finished product. It's the general DESIGN that is killing many of us.:bang:
Speak for yourself. I breathed a little sigh of relief, in reading that article. I for one am glad to hear the design has not been corrupted by production intent.

I dont know man, all this bitching is annoying. I stood around both the hard top and the vert and never once heard anyone say they didnt like the interior. every comment I heard was people say WOW, or thats sweet, or I hope they make it like this!

Your experience is likely the most common one for the vast majority of those seeing the car. I have been to the Detroit auto show (in 06 and in 07) twice now with a 06 Camaro concept present, and had the same experience both times.

I made a big mistake at the unveiling. After all was said and done, the lead interior designer came to find me. With a big smile on his face he said, "So how'd you like the interior Charlie"? I didn't have the heart to tell him I hated it, I should have.
I have another theory. Maybe part of you knows it is actually the best thing that could happen for the interior. It's true to the rest of the design, and fits in perfect harmony with it. Having seen all your feedback on this site lo these many years, I have trouble picturing you holding back an opinion :D

I have another theory. Maybe part of you knows it is actually the best thing that could happen for the interior. It's true to the rest of the design, and fits in perfect harmony with it. Having seen all your feedback on this site lo these many years, I have trouble picturing you holding back an opinion :D

No, your theory is wrong.

As I said in another post, I just didn't take that interior seriously. I figured, why bum somebody out which I like, if it doesn't matter.

Afew weeks after the unveiling, I had a very long conversation with Gene Stefanyshyn, (VLE for Zeta/Camaro), regarding my input on what was then, a theoretical Camaro. I mentioned the thing with the interior, and he said "Charlie, this is your car, you'd better let everyone know what you think". In Chicago I did. I chatted with the two designers who did the bulk of the interior work. I can't remember their names off the top of my head, one's from Russia and the other from France. They seemed shocked to me.

Later that evening, a couple dozen or so of us, from the Illinois Camaro Club and Midwest F-body, had a GTG with Scott. I didn't hear one nice word about the dash, IP or shifter. Some liked the console gauges though, most didn't.

No, your theory is wrong.

As I said in another post, I just didn't take that interior seriously. I figured, why bum somebody out which I like, if it doesn't matter.

Afew weeks after the unveiling, I had a very long conversation with Gene Stefanyshyn, (VLE for Zeta/Camaro), regarding my input on what was then, a theoretical Camaro. I mentioned the thing with the interior, and he said "Charlie, this is your car, you'd better let everyone know what you think". In Chicago I did. I chatted with the two designers who did the bulk of the interior work. I can't remember their names off the top of my head, one's from Russia and the other from France. They seemed shocked to me.

Later that evening, a couple dozen or so of us, from the Illinois Camaro Club and Midwest F-body, had a GTG with Scott. I didn't hear one nice word about the dash, IP or shifter. Some liked the console gauges though, most didn't.
So two dozen people communicated they disliked it. In contrast, there's the word from FBF himself on here, that the vast majority seeing the car are very happy with it. Sorry... but I'll believe him overall. Especially when in my own gut, I see and enjoy the appeal of a unique interior that matches up well with the exterior styling of the car, and which invariably telegraphs the history of so many authentic, genuine Camaros which came before it.

I think everyone here gets it. You and your little posse don't like it. You're entitled to keep moaning about it from now til the end of time if you like. But if you do - you will see me countering you every step of the way :|

In contrast, there's the word from FBF himself on here, that the vast majority seeing the car are very happy with it. |

Did he say interior? Well, let's see the quote then. I'd say everyone from GM is on the defensive about it right now. Of course I can't wait to hear what sort half baked theory and psuedo-facts you'll pull out of ....umm....thin air, to counter that. Doesn't matter, because that's what the car is getting.

BTW, it wasn't my "little posse". I don't have a posse, nor pretend that I do. They were just regular guys, most I didn't even know, expressing an opinion. Too bad you weren't there, you could have told them all how stupid they're opinions were, because they don't agree with your own.

I still can't get over how offended and angry it makes some people to hear that they aren't in love with the new Camaro.

Did he say interior? Well, let's see the quote then. I'd say everyone from GM is on the defensive about it right now. Of course I can't wait to hear what sort half baked theory and psuedo-facts you'll pull out of ....umm....thin air, to counter that. Doesn't matter, because that's what the car is getting.

BTW, it wasn't my "little posse". I don't have a posse, nor pretend that I do. They were just regular guys, most I didn't even know, expressing an opinion. Too bad you weren't there, you could have told them all how stupid they're opinions were, because they don't agree with your own.
I'll let him speak for himself. I do recall him saying on here that they had gotten feedback both ways on the console gages... but IIRC he's said overall the feedback on the concept has been overwhelmingly positive. (Why would that NOT automatically include the opinions on the interior?)

I wasn't trying to claim all those other guys with you at the GTG were *strictly* your crew. But you did make it sound a little like that. Their, and your, opinions are not "stupid". You've every right to them and any opinion is just as valid as any other. Me too :)

I still can't get over how offended and angry it makes some people to hear that they aren't in love with the new Camaro.
In the remote chance you were referring to me...

I'm not upset if some don't like the new Camaro, or something about it. I wouldn't call it anger, more like exasperation, when some keep going on and on and on about something they don't like. Curb weight for example. If a person thinks the Camaro is too heavy... sorry. Move on with your life instead of carping ad infinitum on here about something that is very difficult to change, if it can be changed at all.

In the remote chance you were referring to me...

I'm not upset if some don't like the new Camaro, or something about it. I wouldn't call it anger, more like exasperation, when some keep going on and on and on about something they don't like. Curb weight for example. If a person thinks the Camaro is too heavy... sorry. Move on with your life instead of carping ad infinitum on here about something that is very difficult to change, if it can be changed at all.

Actually, I wasn't really refering to you specifically and I don't mind the back and forth with you. There have been a lot of comments by people who just can't understand that people could actually dislike aspects of the Camaro and there is definatly a mood of anger and surprise.

I can't speak for others, but for myself, I was really dissapointed when I saw the concept Camaro. This goes for the exterior but especially for the interior. I too dissmissed the interior as just a wild design study that would never make it to market. As other info has been trickling in, concerns about curb weight, lack of t-tops/targa, vehicle height, no hatch, and a few others, have been adding up. I fully understand why GM went with certain solutions, but that doesn't make me like it any more. On top of all of this, I have been trying to convince myself to like the exterior design and I had almost talked myself into buying a 5th gen over a used Vette, but now after seeing the production interior, I don't know if I can make a case to myself to buy a Camaro over a Corvette. I have only owned Camaros (3), and this will be the first time I break the tradition. I feel let down and dissapointed that I can't like the Camaro more.

Actually, I wasn't really refering to you specifically and I don't mind the back and forth with you. There have been a lot of comments by people who just can't understand that people could actually dislike aspects of the Camaro and there is definatly a mood of anger and surprise.

I can't speak for others, but for myself, I was really dissapointed when I saw the concept Camaro. This goes for the exterior but especially for the interior. I too dissmissed the interior as just a wild design study that would never make it to market. As other info has been trickling in, concerns about curb weight, lack of t-tops/targa, vehicle height, no hatch, and a few others, have been adding up. I fully understand why GM went with certain solutions, but that doesn't make me like it any more. On top of all of this, I have been trying to convince myself to like the exterior design and I had almost talked myself into buying a 5th gen over a used Vette, but now after seeing the production interior, I don't know if I can make a case to myself to buy a Camaro over a Corvette. I have only owned Camaros (3), and this will be the first time I break the tradition. I feel let down and dissapointed that I can't like the Camaro more.
I can understand, and relate. I agree I'd rather have t-tops than what will instead likely be a sunroof on my new Camaro. I've adjusted to that, by knowing it will also be safer in rollover and maybe side collisions, and maybe I'll save some on insurance to boot.

There are definitely tradeoffs with any new car purchase. I hope you can muster the patience to wait until the Camaro is out in showrooms before deciding.

Curb weight for example. If a person thinks the Camaro is too heavy... sorry. Move on with your life instead of carping ad infinitum on here about something that is very difficult to change, if it can be changed at all.

I think you should re-phrase that to say: "If GM product planners think the Camaro is too heavy... sorry. Move on with your life and cancel it instead of carping ad infinitum on here about something that is very difficult to change, if it can be changed at all."

Don't for a minute think that this conversation hasn't happened. I think it'll be built. But just as the rest of Zeta seems to be imploding because of it's non-CAFE-friendly weight, so will this Camaro, eventually.

I think you should re-phrase that to say: "If GM product planners think the Camaro is too heavy... sorry. Move on with your life and cancel it instead of carping ad infinitum on here about something that is very difficult to change, if it can be changed at all."

Don't for a minute think that this conversation hasn't happened. I think it'll be built. But just as the rest of Zeta seems to be imploding because of it's non-CAFE-friendly weight, so will this Camaro, eventually.

Blarney. CAFE is on a major collision course with the American lifestyle and the man-made-global-warming myth. CAFE will implode LONG before America's love affair with hefty, versatile, satisfying, and useful cars and trucks.

Let's hope so.

I made the 'group of 10' statement. I wish you would not quote me out of context.

I apologize if I offended you. My point still stands however. Ed Welburn would not be addressing an interior "issue" if there was not an "issue" brought up by many in the community to address.

I'm right along with everyone else. The interior on the concept was so "retro-spaceship bizzare" I honestly didn't give it much of a thought. My focus on the concept was the exterior.

I'm right along with everyone else. The interior on the concept was so "retro-spaceship bizzare" I honestly didn't give it much of a thought. My focus on the concept was the exterior. I was kinda thinking along those lines as well.
But, you know what, the Concept interior actually looked better, flowed better, "TO ME" than the; pregnant dash, huge vented, sega stereo version in the spy shots...IMHO.

I. I think it'll be built. But just as the rest of Zeta seems to be imploding because of it's non-CAFE-friendly weight, so will this Camaro, eventually.


Maybe I'm missing something here -- Are you implying that Zeta is imploding because of weight?

If so, you are wrong.

All manufacturers are putting car and truck programs on hold right now -- because of new CAFE regulations.....it would be foolish not to as it will take some time to see exactly how the new regulations will impact the market --

Charlie - I (and we) know you hate the weight thing. (and I don't think there's a person you haven't talked to and made it crystal-clear.....)

As I said in another post -- we really want you to like this car.

We can't force you to.

You've said over and over that we have to make this car appeal to a wider audience.

Charlie -- I'm telling you -- this car gets raves wherever we take it. No -- not everyone likes it.....but it's overwhelming from a perspective of those who do. Go stand by the concept at any number of cities -- and just listen and look at peoples expression.......

Are you implying that we should change it to your standards -- and perhaps alienate those large numbers?

I made the 'group of 10' statement. I wish you would not quote me out of context. That was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the vocal minority on this board, who have made a hobby of wringing their hands over the new Camaro's weight, interior, gas cap location, 'chunkyness' ( :rolleyes: ), model naming (Z28 vs SS vs Z/28 etc) and so on ad nauseum. Whether it's ten, twenty, or a hundred - it's still obvious people are a little too free to criticize when they are tucked safely behind their keyboards.

Acutally your comment about "the band of 10" is totaly in context to this discusion. You made it during a disussion about the interior and while stating that those complaining about the interior are a vocal minority.

Could there really be someone complaining about the illustrious interior other than the few people on this site? No can't be. :)

I know, maybe the members of the "Band of 10" got together and sent mass mailings to GM. Yea thats got to be it. :D

Maybe I'm missing something here -- Are you implying that Zeta is imploding because of weight?

If so, you are wrong.

All manufacturers are putting car and truck programs on hold right now -- because of new CAFE regulations.....it would be foolish not to as it will take some time to see exactly how the new regulations will impact the market --

Charlie - I (and we) know you hate the weight thing. (and I don't think there's a person you haven't talked to and made it crystal-clear.....)

As I said in another post -- we really want you to like this car.

We can't force you to.

You've said over and over that we have to make this car appeal to a wider audience.

Charlie -- I'm telling you -- this car gets raves wherever we take it. No -- not everyone likes it.....but it's overwhelming from a perspective of those who do. Go stand by the concept at any number of cities -- and just listen and look at peoples expression.......

Are you implying that we should change it to your standards -- and perhaps alienate those large numbers?

Hey there Scott. I've seen people rave on the concepts, I'm one of the ravers. I just think the interior looks like it came out of a weird 1950's science fiction movie. It just doesn't match the exterior at all to me.

As far as why Zeta is imploding, well I can't say I'm privy to all that. Obviously, GM has only so much money to spend, and needs to allocate it appropriately, in order to address the upcoming staggering challenges facing the auto industry. I suspect though, that if the Zetas were 3,600 pound sedans, which could knock down BIG mpg numbers, they might be under less scrutiny.

As far as Camaro and weight, it's not even about what I want anymore. Every extra pound on the Camaro, makes it a bigger liability to GM's CAFE efforts. I think my standards on that, not only won't alienate anyone, it'll better secure Camaro's future survival.

I think my standards on that, not only won't alienate anyone, it'll better secure Camaro's future survival.
If they invested the money, time, and resources shaving weight off, however they'd go about it...I daresay that would alienate more than a few people from the price standpoint, yeah?

If they invested the money, time, and resources shaving weight off, however they'd go about it...I daresay that would alienate more than a few people from the price standpoint, yeah?

It's a new world my friend. Expect all upcoming cars to come with a heavy dose of smaller size, less mass and lots more high strength steel/aluminum/magnesium/carbon fiber......and an MSRP tp pay for it all.

In our new world, a roughly 2 ton Camaro has a very dim future. Not having one available, alienates EVERYONE who might want one.

It's a new world my friend. Expect all upcoming cars to come with a heavy dose of smaller size, less mass and lots more high strength steel/aluminum/magnesium/carbon fiber......and an MSRP tp pay for it all.

In our new world, a roughly 2 ton Camaro has a very dim future. Not having one available, alienates EVERYONE who might want one.
I hope and wish we don't see yet another thread succomb to the heavy-dead-horse curb weight debate :death:

That said... I agree with Dragoneye. Chevy needs to be wise about the Camaro's materials. An exotic-material Camaro at $42,000 or worse, simply would not sell. It just doesn't fit the image of the car.

In reality, there's likely a wide tolerance for a hefty Camaro - AS LONG AS a few conditions are met:
1. Price/value remains mainstream vs. the competition (eg, Mustang)
2. Features (XM, leather, sunroof, etc) are not sacrificed
3. Performance, quality are not sacrificed

What some don't seem to understand yet, is the sheer fallacy of the new CAFE as it now stands. Certainly, CAFE was due for some kind of tightening. But it's all about the details. And the details, I still maintain, are on an unwavering collision course with stark realities in America. Camaro is not alone in this dilemma. Light pickups, comfy-sized crossovers with good interior volume, mid-lux sedans... the list goes on and on...Americans love their roomy, capable, powerful vehicles. They haul soccer teams... stoves... boats... campers... ATV's... snowmobiles... you name it. The new CAFE is just not gonna fly as is here. Americans will revolt, congress people will come under severe heat, and mark my words, the new CAFE will be heavily revised in coming years. In the meantime though, I can fully understand GM must be ready for the worst case (no revision).

You've said over and over that we have to make this car appeal to a wider audience.

Charlie -- I'm telling you -- this car gets raves wherever we take it. No -- not everyone likes it.....but it's overwhelming from a perspective of those who do. Go stand by the concept at any number of cities -- and just listen and look at peoples expression.......

Are you implying that we should change it to your standards -- and perhaps alienate those large numbers?

Back on the interior - I agree 100% with FBF they need to follow the majority response on this car... it can't be everything for every possible buyer.

Charlie -- I'm telling you -- this car gets raves wherever we take it. No -- not everyone likes it.....but it's overwhelming from a perspective of those who do. Go stand by the concept at any number of cities -- and just listen and look at peoples expression.......



I have no doubt that people rave about the exterior, but the question is about the interior. Are you saying that the interior, by itself, has recieved rave reviews?

What some don't seem to understand yet, is the sheer fallacy of the new CAFE as it now stands. Certainly, CAFE was due for some kind of tightening. But it's all about the details. And the details, I still maintain, are on an unwavering collision course with stark realities in America. Camaro is not alone in this dilemma. Light pickups, comfy-sized crossovers with good interior volume, mid-lux sedans... the list goes on and on...Americans love their roomy, capable, powerful vehicles. They haul soccer teams... stoves... boats... campers... ATV's... snowmobiles... you name it. The new CAFE is just not gonna fly as is here. Americans will revolt, congress people will come under severe heat, and mark my words, the new CAFE will be heavily revised in coming years. In the meantime though, I can fully understand GM must be ready for the worst case (no revision).





The problem is, weather CAFE is a crock or not, articles have been popping up everywhere about programs that have been haulted or cancelled due to factors in the market that are related to vehicle efficiency. Cadillac V8 program scrapped, rwd Impala scrapped, most zeta cars scrapped, and the most troubling one of all, the C7 project is apparently on hold. If these programs are in jeopardy, what does that say about a relatively low volume Camaro? Remember, the Camaro is not a Corvette. A Corvette will always be there..........

I have a hard time believing any standards will be relaxed in the comming years, especially with the Dems controlling Congress.

It's a new world my friend. Expect all upcoming cars to come with a heavy dose of smaller size, less mass and lots more high strength steel/aluminum/magnesium/carbon fiber......and an MSRP tp pay for it all.

In our new world, a roughly 2 ton Camaro has a very dim future. Not having one available, alienates EVERYONE who might want one.

It indeed is a new world, unfortunately the changes are now mandated by forced selection according to the mandates of the idiots at Disney On The Potomac. Let's be realistic here, while I am concerned about the weight of a new vehicle (as everyone should be), would there be this much concern if CAFE standards were not in place and the free market was the real determining factor? I don't think so, unfortunately we are being ever trained to focus our wants/desires on what is "politically correct" rather than our true feelings. Sure I'd like to have a 3,200 pound new Camaro, but I'd also like to be able to afford it. Where do you think a lot of this extra weight is coming from? Can you say crash standards and other legislated/mandated "improvements", indeed since at least the late '60s there has been a continuing trend of adding weight to meet these mandates. My '69 Z/28 had an AIR pump and all of the associated tubing, hoses, HP sapping pulley, etc. that my '67 RS Camaro did not have. Over the years since then there has been much added weight, side impact beams, air bags, catalytic converters, etc., it goes on and on. If the government would ever realize that we can't legislate enough safety standards to protect every moron wandering our streets and highways and that our artificial mileage standards are not addressing the real root of the problem, perhaps we could move forward freely and let the marketplace determine what is best. Back on topic, I'm not ready to pass judgement on the interior based on some incomplete prototype renderings. The exterior has maintained a great look and I trust them to do a similar good job on the interior.
Clyde

I have no doubt that people rave about the exterior, but the question is about the interior. Are you saying that the interior, by itself, has recieved rave reviews?
See, that's an interesting question. Does it matter? Do you know anyone who is going to buy JUST a 2010 Camaro interior, and set it up in their living room for lounging in?

No. The entire CAR must be taken in context.

I have a hard time believing any standards will be relaxed in the comming years, especially with the Dems controlling Congress.
I highlighted the key phrase. It's the Dems who got this whole mess going... and it will be the Dems who pay for it when Americans vote. If they don't lose their majority in 2008, they most certainly will by the mid-cycle elections in 2010 (IMAO).

It indeed is a new world, unfortunately the changes are now mandated by forced selection according to the mandates of the idiots at Disney On The Potomac. Let's be realistic here, while I am concerned about the weight of a new vehicle (as everyone should be), would there be this much concern if CAFE standards were not in place and the free market was the real determining factor? I don't think so, unfortunately we are being ever trained to focus our wants/desires on what is "politically correct" rather than our true feelings. Sure I'd like to have a 3,200 pound new Camaro, but I'd also like to be able to afford it. Where do you think a lot of this extra weight is coming from? Can you say crash standards and other legislated/mandated "improvements", indeed since at least the late '60s there has been a continuing trend of adding weight to meet these mandates. My '69 Z/28 had an AIR pump and all of the associated tubing, hoses, HP sapping pulley, etc. that my '67 RS Camaro did not have. Over the years since then there has been much added weight, side impact beams, air bags, catalytic converters, etc., it goes on and on. If the government would ever realize that we can't legislate enough safety standards to protect every moron wandering our streets and highways and that our artificial mileage standards are not addressing the real root of the problem, perhaps we could move forward freely and let the marketplace determine what is best. Back on topic, I'm not ready to pass judgement on the interior based on some incomplete prototype renderings. The exterior has maintained a great look and I trust them to do a similar good job on the interior.
Clyde

Amen, 100%. And the bottom line is - the free market cannot be legislated away. If Americans perceive CAFE has gone overboard and it's harshly limiting their lifestyle, Americans will do something about it... at the ballot box.

It's funny you mention all the safety regs. My Dad always says he wishes they would design cars so everyone drives with their nose out in front of the car (I know, it's ridiculous ;) )... then we'd be amazed how few accidents happen. Too many folks today think airbags and ABS make them somehow invincible and above the laws of physics.

And I agree about the trust thing too :)

See, that's an interesting question. Does it matter? Do you know anyone who is going to buy JUST a 2010 Camaro interior, and set it up in their living room for lounging in?

No. The entire CAR must be taken in context.

I understand that but it almost seemed like a side step of the question concerning the interior. Of course no one just looks at the interior but the importance of the interior can not be underestimated. Was that not the number one complaint about the 4th gen? The die hards won't care, but the people who GM is trying to court with the new Camaro will care. People went to the Mustang because the interior was more user friendly, upright, and familiar. It wasn't the performance, it wasn't the handling, it wasn't for any stat or option in a brochure. To say that the interior plays only a minor role is crazy.



I highlighted the key phrase. It's the Dems who got this whole mess going... and it will be the Dems who pay for it when Americans vote. If they don't lose their majority in 2008, they most certainly will by the mid-cycle elections in 2010 (IMAO).

I don't see the Dems loosing thier majority in Congress anytime soon, unless a Dem gets in the white house.............but then the veto looms. It's not looking good. I hope I am wrong.

It indeed is a new world, unfortunately the changes are now mandated by forced selection according to the mandates of the idiots at Disney On The Potomac. Let's be realistic here, while I am concerned about the weight of a new vehicle (as everyone should be), would there be this much concern if CAFE standards were not in place and the free market was the real determining factor? I don't think so, unfortunately we are being ever trained to focus our wants/desires on what is "politically correct" rather than our true feelings. Sure I'd like to have a 3,200 pound new Camaro, but I'd also like to be able to afford it. Where do you think a lot of this extra weight is coming from? Can you say crash standards and other legislated/mandated "improvements", indeed since at least the late '60s there has been a continuing trend of adding weight to meet these mandates. My '69 Z/28 had an AIR pump and all of the associated tubing, hoses, HP sapping pulley, etc. that my '67 RS Camaro did not have. Over the years since then there has been much added weight, side impact beams, air bags, catalytic converters, etc., it goes on and on. If the government would ever realize that we can't legislate enough safety standards to protect every moron wandering our streets and highways and that our artificial mileage standards are not addressing the real root of the problem, perhaps we could move forward freely and let the marketplace determine what is best. Back on topic, I'm not ready to pass judgement on the interior based on some incomplete prototype renderings. The exterior has maintained a great look and I trust them to do a similar good job on the interior.
Clyde

Crash standards are an unbelievably complex set of standards which add LOTS of weight and affect every aspect of car design. I'm all for safe cars and all, but some of the things that automakers have to design in are alittle ridiculous.

Back on the interior - I agree 100% with FBF they need to follow the majority response on this car... it can't be everything for every possible buyer.


Did I miss the part where Scott said the majority of responses have been positive for the interior?

Originally Posted by BigDarknFast:
It's funny you mention all the safety regs. My Dad always says he wishes they would design cars so everyone drives with their nose out in front of the car (I know, it's ridiculous )... then we'd be amazed how few accidents happen. Too many folks today think airbags and ABS make them somehow invincible and above the laws of physics.
I have to somewhat agree with him. I remember riding up in the back window of our car when I was very young.
Before the days of "antilocks" and "air bags" and energy eating crumple zones.
People drove like they had a lot more sense then.
Originally Posted by Z284ever:
Crash standards are an unbelievably complex set of standards which add LOTS of weight and affect every aspect of car design. I'm all for safe cars and all, but some of the things that automakers have to design in are alittle ridiculous.
Every car doesn't need and shouldn't be overengineered to Volvo or Mercedes standards...I agree.
We need more emphasis on driver's training, including accident avoidance and defensive driving, to a degree...before we hand over a license to everyone who can breathe.

As far as Camaro and weight, it's not even about what I want anymore. Every extra pound on the Camaro, makes it a bigger liability to GM's CAFE efforts. I think my standards on that, not only won't alienate anyone, it'll better secure Camaro's future survival.


........and I think if you go back and look at my posts over the past year, I have been SAYING THAT........and the point has always been that we'd LOVE to have it come in at 3,000 pounds (just as I'd love to be sleeping with Sandy Bullock and Daisy Fuentes tonite.......) -- but every engineer will tell you that to do this car right -- it simply can't be done and bring it in at a Camaro price with a 5-star crash rating........all around..........

I have no doubt that people rave about the exterior, but the question is about the interior. Are you saying that the interior, by itself, has recieved rave reviews?

No -- what I am saying is that there are a few 'naysayers' on this (and other boards) - and they are in the minority.....and they say the same thing about the exterior as they say about the interior.........

Let me ask you (as a collective group) a few questions:

When was the last time you took a petition to a club meeting or car show and had people write letters or sign petitions to change CAFE to a free-market-- or perhaps insist on a realistic energy plan in this country?

When was the last time you asked your state and federal officials to pass a comprehensive Driver Education Plan?

Someone a few posts above talked about the absurd laws that continually get passed by a cowardly electorate...........

(just as I'd love to be sleeping with Sandy Bullock and Daisy Fuentes tonite.......) .....


Both of them!

You dog... :bow:

Let me ask you (as a collective group) a few questions:

When was the last time you took a petition to a club meeting or car show and had people write letters or sign petitions to change CAFE to a free-market-- or perhaps insist on a realistic energy plan in this country?

When was the last time you asked your state and federal officials to pass a comprehensive Driver Education Plan?

Someone a few posts above talked about the absurd laws that continually get passed by a cowardly electorate...........

Your right, we should be doing something about it instead of just complaining. To tell you the truth I never even thought about it.