Paging Roadie or 97WS6Pilot

Hey guys. I understand you are sucessfully runnning a FAST ECU and Delteq together. Interested in how you accomplished this and if you are having any problems with it. Also interested in anyone else who may have some insight on this subject. Looking at the schematics from FAST and Delteq it seems possible. Delteq says yes, FAST says not sure. Looking for someone who knows for sure. Thanks, Rob. I'll be running the XFI ECU.

I'm interested as well. I have the older FAST system and am also going to be running the coil packs.

Jerry

Well I know for a fact the delteq works w/ the classic FAST box as both Roadie and 97WS6pilot are running it. The BIG question is whether the XFI can do the same and I was hoping to have that answer today but I still can't get the damn car to fire. Only conclusion I can come up w/ is the wiring diagram I have is a bad diagram OR I really suck at following instructions. :D I'm known to do the latter. I'm almost tempted to ship this SOB back stateside and have a pro look at it and ship it back but I've only got 12 mos left over here so I'll just wait.

I changed the crank ref angle from 10 to 6* and that didn't help. Only thing I haven't done is changed to a different ign setting like northstar's or GN buick but I don't think that would matter either. I hate the opti but if I can't get this SOB to start I may have to go back to it. :(

Hopefully Rob you'll have better luck than me and keep me from ditching the Delteq.

Roadie had some weird "invisible" rev limiter on the dyno that him and the experienced FAST tuner couldnt figure out. He is working on figuring it now, so hopefuly he can shed some light on the Delteq + FAST topic.

I had a non-start issue, but it was 2-fold... I first went to Delteq with my problem and they made a bypass cable for me. Instead of letting the Delteq brainbox process the signal before sending it to the ECU, the new cable fed the opti signals directly to the ECU (sharing them with the Delteq brain box).

However, that didn't solve my non-start issue. I took RealQuick's FAST box, plugged it in, and the car fired right up. The problem wound up being that my FAST box had "GM HEI" internals instead of "GM Opti" internals. FAST fixed my box and sent it back to me and all was good...

I haven't tried to put the original delteq cable back on the car yet, but that is going to be part of troubleshooting my mysterious 4800 rpm rev limiter (once I replace a header gasket this weekend).

Just a side note, there's a lot of different information around for the opti. FAST states the opti reference angle is 1* BTDC and to use 40uS as the inductive delay. BS3 states 6* BTDC and 24uS as the inductive delay. These numbers are very important because the first one can put you off 5 degrees of timing right off the bat. The latter affects how timing changes as rpm changes -- too high of number and timing will advance with an RPM increase and too low of number will make timing retard as RPM increases.

I'm attempting to get the right numbers for both and will share them when I figure it out. The inductive delay number I will find out by setting my timing to 30* across the board and using a timing light, making changes until timing stays the same regardless of RPM. The reference angle is going to be tricky since I have no timing pointer to reference.

Roadie when you sent your box back for the revision do you know what revision you got? I wonder if it's the same for the XFI as I sent mine back w/ the update "Opti revision" but I still can't fire it. Never heard anything about bypass cable from Delteq. Guess I need to give them a call.

Roadie when you sent your box back for the revision do you know what revision you got? I wonder if it's the same for the XFI as I sent mine back w/ the update "Opti revision" but I still can't fire it. Never heard anything about bypass cable from Delteq. Guess I need to give them a call.

sounds like you got it figured out from the other thread... I have the classic box and don't know what version of firmware is on it (off the top of my head).

Hey Roadie. Could you possibly send me a pic, or schematic of the bypass harness Delteq sent you. Still waiting on mine to show up from J.C. I'm pretty sure I can modify the harness' I already have and come up with the same thing. Kinda in a different ball park than some of you since I'm running XFI ECU and FAST harness', with no stock PCM or harness. I definately think the delay has a major part in this whole thing. It would be nice to see if one of us could get this working so we could pass the info onto everyone else. Thanks, Rob.

I'm still using the stock pcm and delteq. Sorry I couldn't help.:)

Still running stock pcm huh? I had heard you were running a FAST. Oh well. Are you running a proportioning valve on your ABS delete? I didn't see one. Thanks, Rob.

Still running stock pcm huh? I had heard you were running a FAST. Oh well. Are you running a proportioning valve on your ABS delete? I didn't see one. Thanks, Rob.

Stock PCM seems to be working great on my blower setup. Its pretty easy to control fueling with the PE vs RPM table and I get good driveability with my MAF on the pressure side. I just wish I could control the timing a little better.

I didn't need a proportioning valve because my fronts lock up first with the C5 brakes. I love having the additional space where my abs modulator used to be.

Roadie did you ever find out anything? Mine acts like it wants to fire but it just doesn't. I had to mess w/ the cranking fuel table as I wasn't getting no fuel but plenty spark. Once I did that it burped a few times but would never start. I tried 10* and 6* for the reference angle and it reacts the same way in either setting. According to the help file us using the opti requires 1* for crank ref angle. Gonna try that next and see what happens.

Roadie did you ever find out anything? Mine acts like it wants to fire but it just doesn't. I had to mess w/ the cranking fuel table as I wasn't getting no fuel but plenty spark. Once I did that it burped a few times but would never start. I tried 10* and 6* for the reference angle and it reacts the same way in either setting. According to the help file us using the opti requires 1* for crank ref angle. Gonna try that next and see what happens.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner... My truck was bent into a pretzel by a pair of Dodge Neons last week and I've been dealing with everything but my car since.

Still haven't fixed the rev limiter, but it does run...

I'm not sure how accurate that help file is... FAST XFI manual says 6* for opti (so does BS3). In all honesty, 6* or 1* won't make too much of a difference for first time firing.

I've tweaked that and the inductive delay in trying to fix my problem, but to no avail. Right now it's set to 6* and 24uS (settings recommended by BS3) and it seems to be pretty good. Timing does go just a tad bit to the retard side as it climbs RPMs, meaning the inductive delay should be increased a bit. I just haven't had time to find the perfect number yet.

First look at RPMs... Is the FAST box seeing RPMs while cranking? That's where I found out my box was the problem. It wasn't reading any RPM. Turns out my FAST box was set up for HEI, not Opti. Once I had that changed, it fired right up...

What does your VE table look like? At idle, mine was already in the 55-65 range. I expected it to be much lower than that. Even at 55-65, injector pulse width was only 1.2-1.3ms.

If you can take a log file while cranking, send it to me in email - jhuegen @ gmail.com - and I'll take a look. Just an FYI, the Delteq box will make spark even if the FAST box isn't telling it to. It does that to learn where it's at in the firing order. If the FAST box isn't seeing RPM, it's not commanding spark or fuel.

Damn. Sorry to hear about your truck. I hope you are ok and wasn't in the truck when it happened. I had my box sent back for firmware revision XFI2_23 which is supposed to be the replacement board for the opti ignition. At least that's what the work order says.

Read somewhere too about the XFI reading the rpm during cranking and that's something I haven't checked yet. I'll take a look at that tomorrow as well as the VE table but I think my numbers are lower thinking mid to high 40's. I'll datalog as well and shoot it to you. My day is pretty much over being 6hrs ahead and having to go to work in 8 hrs.

Thanks.

Damn. Sorry to hear about your truck. I hope you are ok and wasn't in the truck when it happened. I had my box sent back for firmware revision XFI2_23 which is supposed to be the replacement board for the opti ignition. At least that's what the work order says.

Read somewhere too about the XFI reading the rpm during cranking and that's something I haven't checked yet. I'll take a look at that tomorrow as well as the VE table but I think my numbers are lower thinking mid to high 40's. I'll datalog as well and shoot it to you. My day is pretty much over being 6hrs ahead and having to go to work in 8 hrs.

Thanks.

If you could shoot it over to me as well I'd appreciate it.

Jon

If you could shoot it over to me as well I'd appreciate it.

Jon

He has the XFI, so the software is different. If you want to view it, you'll have to download the XFI doftware from the FAST website. ;)

He has the XFI, so the software is different. If you want to view it, you'll have to download the XFI doftware from the FAST website. ;)

Already did ;) Thanks for the heads up though... :bow:

So, I've been away from trying to fix my car for a little while, but got back on it at the end of last week... JC at Delteq and an engineer at FAST both are aware of my problem are are looking into it. Since everything looks good with the cam signal and FAST, we're going to shoot for a fix with the Delteq box first.

JC at Delteq just overnighted me a couple different revs of the Delteq brain box to try out and see if we can find one that works... Talk about great customer service!

I'll know sometime tomorrow evening if this helps.

Good to hear Roadie. Hopefully between the few of us who are experimenting with this combination, one of us is bound to figure it out. I'm still waiting on JC to send me my harness that will plug into the FAST harness. Just got my rotating assembly and block back from the machine shop today. Soon as I get my heads from AI, I'll be getting her put back together. See ya, Rob.

Well JC sent me another brain box too but it didn't work. :( I just got done ordering a Crane HI-6R, PS92 coil, adapter harness and plug wires. I hope one of you have better luck and figure it out. I've been down 2 yrs now and the patience has run out esp w/ only having one year left on the autobahn. I cracked...sorry fella's. I'm still going to keep the Delteq in the event there is a cure as I really like the damn thing.

RealQuick sorry for not shooting you a datalog.

Well JC sent me another brain box too but it didn't work. :( I just got done ordering a Crane HI-6R, PS92 coil, adapter harness and plug wires. I hope one of you have better luck and figure it out. I've been down 2 yrs now and the patience has run out esp w/ only having one year left on the autobahn. I cracked...sorry fella's. I'm still going to keep the Delteq in the event there is a cure as I really like the damn thing.

RealQuick sorry for not shooting you a datalog.

No worries.

no luck with the first of the three boxes he sent me... Everything is too hot for me to swap and try again right now.

http://www.lt1.org/turbo/miss1.gif
http://www.lt1.org/turbo/miss2.gif

The above are two different screen shots of the log I took... Right where the verticle line is located is where all hell breaks loose. Roughtly 14psi boost steady from 3700rpm (left of the graphs) through to there on both. Then spark quits. No fire means no more pressure in the exhaust, and in turn, boost drops off dramatically.

The top pink line is the throttle position. You can see I let off long after I lost spark.

I'm stumped and not having a very fuzzy feeling about the other two Delteq boxes, but I'll give them both a try...

I'm stumped and not having a very fuzzy feeling about the other two Delteq boxes, but I'll give them both a try...


Opti FTW!!:p ;)

Sucks Jer, good luck on the other 2 boxes.

How old is your OPTI Roadie? Have you gutted it, or is it still stock? I'm still a long way from getting mine put back together, so your our only hope right now. I see John gave up and is going back to the OPTI. I cant believe we can get a Delteq to work with a factory PCM, but for over 2K for a FAST setup no one is having any luck. Are you using your stock wiring harness, or FAST harness'? I've totally gutted my stock wiring and am going to run strictly FAST harness'. I'm frustrated for you. Good luck, Rob.

It's a brand new Accel opti. I know the opti is working right because the RPM signal is never getting lost by the FAST box. If it was lost, then I'd replace it.

I'm using the stock wiring harness with a White Racing PCB interface (plug and play module that goes between the FAST box and the stock wiring harness). Everything works flawlessly for cruising around or even running hard, short shifting at 4500...

I'm fairly certain it's not a wiring issue or an opti issue because we'd see erratic problems, not it dying at exactly 4800 rpm time and time again. I've reproduced it at least 60 times so far in trying to diagnose/fix it. I can't believe how much I'm thrashing this shortblock in such a short time. It's holding up good though.

Hey Roadie, any luck breaking that 4800 RPM barrier yet? Thanks, Rob.

Hey Roadie, any luck breaking that 4800 RPM barrier yet? Thanks, Rob.

Yeah, I got an email from him. One of the delteq boxes removed the 4800rpm limiter.... and made it 4200rpm :p No luck. He has the 3rd and final box in the car, but its been raining, so no runs yet.

LOL. Really that isn't funny. I hope he has better luck w/ the last box! I swear this isn't looking good...at least for now. :( He's running the bypass harness too, correct?

LOL. Really that isn't funny. I hope he has better luck w/ the last box! I swear this isn't looking good...at least for now. :( He's running the bypass harness too, correct?

He did get a new harness from Delteq to work with the FAST setup... so if thats what you are talking aout then ya.

He did get a new harness from Delteq to work with the FAST setup... so if thats what you are talking aout then ya.

Yup... Here's a quick blurb I sent to someone else about the bypass harness and what it does. You can easily make your own (and I would have if I had known it was this simple).

The opti puts this signal out somewhere in the 10-11v range. The Delteq box actually processes this signal and generated a 5v signal to send back to the ECU. In the case of a stock PCM, 5v is all that is needed and there's no problem. In the case of the FAST ECU, it wants a 10-12v signal and usually will crank but not start.

You will appear to have spark because the Delteq box puts out it's own spark regardless of being commanded to or not (this is used to find the correct sequence on start-up). If your problem is this low voltage signal, your FAST box will show 0 rpm while cranking. Verify that you have 0 rpm while cranking before you start cutting.

Assuming you're trying to use a stock harness, what you need to do to fix this is to disect the Delteq opti harness and clip the high and low res signal wires that are comig out of the Delteq box and splice them into the high and low res signal wires going into the delteq box. This gives the FAST ECU the opti signals directly and shares them with the Delteq box.

http://www.delteq.com/Rev5c_VC.pdf

Page 18 of the above doc is the wiring schematic. Clip the PUR/WHT and RED/BLK wires. Splice the PUR/WHT wire going back to the wiring harness into the PUR/BLK wire. Splice the RED/BLK wire going back into the wiring harness into the RED/WHT wire. Cap off the PUR/WHT and RED/BLK wires coming from the Delteq box and leave them disconnected. Now you should have an RPM signal while cranking.

I haven't run the last box yet, but I plan to this afternoon... This last one has no label or anything on it... It's not glued/sealed yet and is just zip-tied holding it together. I'm hoping it's a development box that will make things all better. (I gotta be optimistic here!) :D

The last box got me up to 5400rpm on a 3rd gear run... I'm not satisfied yet, but it's a start. I'll report all this back to JC and see what he says.

That's weird Roadie as I'm using the factory ECU/harness along w/ the FAST harness and I get an rpm signal but yet it still will not fire (it'll burp) so I'm not sure even that schematic would work in my case. I may have to try it though just for giggles.

What in the world? 5400 this time? Something is in that box well at least you got higher. Has to be something simple I'd think but I'm no electrical expert either. :D

Thanks for the update!

How did it feel pulling to 5400rpm?

How did it feel pulling to 5400rpm?

about the same as 4800rpm... It's about a half a second more in 3rd gear, if that. :D

That's weird Roadie as I'm using the factory ECU/harness along w/ the FAST harness and I get an rpm signal but yet it still will not fire (it'll burp) so I'm not sure even that schematic would work in my case. I may have to try it though just for giggles.

Yeah... I had 0 rpm when I tried the regular cable. I don't think we've had the same problems. As I said before, Delteq will generate spark even when not commanded to during it's learning cycle. I'd bank on it as being a fuel problem.

Drop me a log file if you have one... jhuegen AT gmail.com

Well I tried that fix and I have cranking rpm showing so that didn't change anything. The only thing it did change is my FP wouldn't hold. Put everything back as it was and I'd hold FP and still see an rpm crank showing.

Battery is getting low...ha-ha from all this cranking...down to 10 volts but he'll I use to be able to crank my 396 w/ 8 volts. Putting the HI-6R as I type but won't get to fire until later this wk as I'm waiting on the coil. :(

Roadie if I knew how to export the log I'd would've sent it to you but everytime I go to export it to my desktop or where ever it says it's accomplished but then there is nothing there. WTF?

if you go to the directory where it's installed, there will be a directory in there called log. All the log files are kept in there. I haven't logged anything with the XFI software, but the WP software saves the last long taken as temp.log all the time.

The important bits I'd be looking at would be the injector pulsewidth while cranking. It takes about 1ms to open the injectors and my 75lbers are at about 1.2-1.3ms at idle, meaning they are only open for .2-.3ms. If my injectors took 1.2ms to open, it wouldn't get enough fuel to fire...

What kind / size injectors do you have? What's the injector opening time set to? And the of course, the pulsewidth at crank would be important to know...

Thanks I'll check that log. Running 72lb RC's and the setting is at 1ms. Don't know the pulsewidth at crank...I can find out though.

the setting is at 1ms.


Sounds like this is the problem, unless I misunderstood Roadie's post.

So you are saying I need to go higher? Hey I'll try anything once.

So you are saying I need to go higher? Hey I'll try anything once.

Its sounds like it takes the injectors 1ms to respond and then opens fo .2 ms when you have the pulsewidth set to 1.2, so if your set to 1 ms, then there is no actual on time for your injector... it sounds like anyway. Try 1.2 and see what happens.

It adds the injector opening time to the pulsewidth it calculates that it needs. So, mine is set to 1ms injector opening time, and it needs .2-.3ms of fuel at idle. Total injector pulsewidth (including the time it takes to open) is 1.2-1.3ms for idle.

If you suspect that it's not getting any fuel during cranking it could be that the injectors are taking longer to open than the computer is commanding them to open for. Most injectors will be set to 1.0 and work fine.

Hey Roadie. Any luck yet? I got mine to start but I cant get it to idle correctly. Its loading up and I have to keep my foot on the gas to get it to run. Could you send me your gct file so I can compare your calibration tables to mine. I think I already fouled my plugs. Thanks, Rob.

wow... i picked the perfect time to check back in... :D I've been gone for some time (2-3 months) now with business trips, the race team, and my son was just born on Friday.

I have it all sorted out with a special Delteq box. It runs great up through 6400 rpm now, but the tach is off after about 4800 rpm (where my original mysterious rev limiter seemed to be). The tach is correct up to that point and then after, it pegs the needle over 7k rpm before I really hit 6k rpm.

I plan to move the tach line to the signal before the Delteq box to see if it helps. If it doesn't help, I'll deal with the dash tach being screwed up as long as everything runs and functions right. Passengers really enjoy watching the tach needle slam into the dash as I accellerate. ;) :D

You guys are making me regret selling the Delteq now. :( Roadie what is special about the box and is JC going to make any more? Glad to know yours is running now minus the tach issue.

You guys are making me regret selling the Delteq now. :( Roadie what is special about the box and is JC going to make any more? Glad to know yours is running now minus the tach issue.

I'm not sure what's special about it... He sent me 4 boxes and this one was not sealed and unlabeled. I think it was a development box of some kind.

One problem with this box is MSD DIS-4 support though. The MSD box seems to lose sync with this Delteq box constantly. I actually deleted the MSD box in order for everything to work right.