Base Vette and Camaro engine info?

Read this link...say's 450hp for each.

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64611

OR Here...

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39431


Quote from the article...

CC: So are you going to do your own versions of the new Camaro?
Saleen: It's not legally official right now, but that's what we're hoping for.

CC: What kind of upgrades will you make, have you seen the engine GM is using in the Camaro?
Saleen: I hope I don't get in trouble with GM for saying this, but they're using a 6.2 liter 450 horsepower engine for the premium V8 in the 2009 Camaro and the base Corvette. The base V8 will probably be a detuned version of the same 6.2. So we'll just upgrade the 6.2 liter V8 to Saleen level specifications. We're going to upgrade the 6.2 liter V8 if we're given the legal chance by GM. Our base model should have around 485 horsepower, and expect our Extreme Supercharged Camaro to have over 600 horsepower.

Just FYI, I posted this info about a week ago.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=479806

Just FYI, I posted this info about a week ago.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=479806

Thanks for the catch. Sorry for the repost ;)

If this point has been discussed before then I aoplogize for bringing it up again but if it hasn't been specifically addressed I'd apprecitate some info...

It all its history, I can't recall a time when the Camaro/Firebird was ever allowed to have the same or more HP than the Corvette. Of course, it's fairly recent history that essentially the same enging was used in both vehicles but even then, the F-bodies were not allowed to produce the same HP and I would say for good reason...after all, if I'm paying $10-$15-20K more for a Corvette I expect to get the top in HP.

I know all the claims about the LS1 simply being underrated and that may well be but I've seen dyno runs for many LS1 F-bodies and from LS1 Corvettes and the Corvettes have consistently put more HP to the ground; so underrated or not, I would still contend that the 'Vette will always have more.

That said, I don't understand the basis for these rumors and stories I keep reading wich either directly or in a round about way, seem to suggest that the Camrao will have the same or even more HP than the Corvette.

Could some one clear this up for me?

Thanks!

maybe its just time for that stupid rule to die.... that and its only the base vette.

The LS2 GTO was rated @ 400hp, maybe the rule is already dead.

Thanks for the catch. Sorry for the repost ;)
I don't think it's a repost... I'm sure some that didn't care about Saleen, etc. didn't open the other thread -- I bet this will be news to some people now that the title actually suggests engines...

If this point has been discussed before then I aoplogize for bringing it up again but if it hasn't been specifically addressed I'd apprecitate some info...

It all its history, I can't recall a time when the Camaro/Firebird was ever allowed to have the same or more HP than the Corvette. Of course, it's fairly recent history that essentially the same enging was used in both vehicles but even then, the F-bodies were not allowed to produce the same HP and I would say for good reason...after all, if I'm paying $10-$15-20K more for a Corvette I expect to get the top in HP.

I know all the claims about the LS1 simply being underrated and that may well be but I've seen dyno runs for many LS1 F-bodies and from LS1 Corvettes and the Corvettes have consistently put more HP to the ground; so underrated or not, I would still contend that the 'Vette will always have more.

That said, I don't understand the basis for these rumors and stories I keep reading wich either directly or in a round about way, seem to suggest that the Camrao will have the same or even more HP than the Corvette.

Could some one clear this up for me?

Thanks!

There were several times in the cars' history when the Camaro had the same/more hp than some Corvettes. Remember in the 60's/70's when you could get a base Vette with a lowly 350 and there was what, the 396 Camaros, the 454 Chevelles, and some others, all of which made way more power than the base/mid level Corvettes. It has just been a recent thing that they "can't" and it needs to stop.

I know all the claims about the LS1 simply being underrated and that may well be but I've seen dyno runs for many LS1 F-bodies and from LS1 Corvettes and the Corvettes have consistently put more HP to the ground; so underrated or not, I would still contend that the 'Vette will always have more.
Same dyno, same day, both in new running condition, true apples to apples test the LS1 in the Fbodies will on average match the Vette LS1. There's always exceptions but they're definitely both pretty close on average.

Case in point, scan of a dyno test article from 98 on a TA and Vette:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/s/jstriet/dynoarticle.jpg

(my web space isn't working well, shows stock dyno of 98 TA and 98 Vette, both 6spds, both with few miles. 292 rwhp for the TA, 285 rwhp for the Vette which should be within the margin of error from one dynorun to the next, power is virtually identical).

Same article (on a page I didn't scan) had a test on the 98 305hp DOHC 4.6 Cobra as well, it put out 256 rwhp. Obviously the LS1 in the Fbody was not putting out a mere 305hp like Chevy claimed. The LS1 made just shy of 40 more rwhp than its true 305 hp Ford counterpart.

It all its history, I can't recall a time when the Camaro/Firebird was ever allowed to have the same or more HP than the Corvette.

I've been through that debate before. Since 1982 there are three years where this happened.

1990-91 Z28/IROC-Z 245hp, Corvette non ZL-1 245hp (from sales brochure)
1996 Camaro SS 305hp, Corvette w/auto 300hp

I still believe that the top 5th gen model will get the same engine that the base corvette gets.

My factory LS6 intake equipped 6sd '01 Formula put down 307/330. I've very rarely seen a 6sp C5 put that down at the wheels.

My factory LS6 intake equipped 6sd '01 Formula put down 307/330. I've very rarely seen a 6sp C5 put that down at the wheels.
So...what does this really boil down to...what is a person really getting for the extra twenty grand he spends on a 'Vette??? If I'm going to put out that much more money I expect more than just two less seats, and a different body.

I don't want to get overly simplistic...I realize the differences are more than that but still...if I had just put out that much more money for a "Vette and then heard that the Camaro was going to have the same engine with the same HP (and maybe even more if the boasts can be believed); I'd be really pissed.

Am I the only one who sees that as an issue?

The paper rating and the lighter weight (making it slightly faster still) and better handling of the Vettes seems to have gotten the job done well enough through the years. I mean the Fbodies have had very very similar true power output since 93, the Vette and Fbody LT1s were similarly putting down virtually identical power then too. You don't hear too many Vette owners complaining over the years.

I know my good buddy who went from a LS1 Fbody to a LS1 Vette certainly felt like he was upgrading significantly regardless of virtually identical power, and I certainly agreed. The C5 is nicer than the Fbody in virtually every way. The great handling and just overall feel of the car makes it seem far superior IMO.

I'm sure Vette guys who aren't Camaro enthusiasts don't know about, or don't put much stock in the claims of underrated Fbodies anyway.

Since everyone is thinking the weight of the 5thgen is likely to increase at least a little over the 4thgen, even if the 5thgen gets the same LS3 or whatever as the Vette the gap between the two should actually increase over previous offerings. The Vette is about as light as ever and the 5thgen will be on the heavy side...

I know my good buddy who went from a LS1 Fbody to a LS1 Vette certainly felt like he was upgrading significantly regardless of virtually identical power, and I certainly agreed. The C5 is nicer than the Fbody in virtually every way. The great handling and just overall feel of the car makes it seem far superior IMO.

I'm sure Vette guys who aren't Camaro enthusiasts don't know about, or don't put much stock in the claims of underrated Fbodies anyway.



I am one of those guys. Traded in the '02 SS for an '04 Vette. The SS didn't have many mods - intake and exhaust. The Vette is now modded to the gils, but even stock, there was no comparison to the Camaro - and nor should there be. They are two completely different cars with different purposes. Since the Vette, I have now acquired a family, and the idea of a 4 seater Camaro sounds really good to me - thus my interest in the 5th gens.

I'd be willing to bet anyone that the 5th gen will have a base Vette engine. I highly doubt GM will be sandbagging the good Camaro nameplate when they have put so much effort into its revival.

I don't want to get overly simplistic...I realize the differences are more than that but still...

Yes the differences are more than that - considerably more than that. Leap-years more.

Your concerns are about the engine only...if you are so concerned about the engine, then go buy the crate engine and stick it in a rusty Gremlin chassis. Using your logic, that's the cheapest [b]and best[/] route. Screw the Camaro and the Corvette...just pick up a Gremlin from the junkyard for $100, and drop in a $9,000 LS7. You'll be the best on the block.

Trust me, people are basing their decision to buy a Vette on what engine is under the hood. Sure, there are few, but the mass majority of Vette buyers are buying it simply because it is a Vette - not a Camaro, not a WRX, not a Viper, not a 350Z. Its a Vette. Period.

FWIW, my Firehawk was rated at 315 while the Corvette that same year was only rated at 300. I know that the Firehawk didn't directly come from the factory but it still was bought off the same showroom floor as the regular 'birds.

I don't think it's a repost... I'm sure some that didn't care about Saleen, etc. didn't open the other thread -- I bet this will be news to some people now that the title actually suggests engines...

They may not have opened the other thread, but its still a repost. (There are at least three threads on the discussion.) :D

So...what does this really boil down to...what is a person really getting for the extra twenty grand he spends on a 'Vette??? If I'm going to put out that much more money I expect more than just two less seats, and a different body.

I don't want to get overly simplistic...I realize the differences are more than that but still...if I had just put out that much more money for a "Vette and then heard that the Camaro was going to have the same engine with the same HP (and maybe even more if the boasts can be believed); I'd be really pissed.

Am I the only one who sees that as an issue?

Glad you asked! I've owned 3 LS1 cars, including an A4 C5. While the F bodys may have indeed put down a bit more power to the wheels, the vette lost more throught the drivetrain, so I wouldn't be suprised if the vettes did indeed make a bit more power, even if they weren't as efficient in getting it to the ground. That is where the similarities end. The Corvette did EVERYTHING better than either my '01 Formula, or my '02 Z28 A4. Acceleration was close, but I think the vette had it, and it would only get worse as you get to triple digits. Handling.....ha. Ride, way better, and mine was even equiped w/ the Z51 suspension. Dodads.....Corvette. Targa top, hud, electronic a/c, memory settings, active handling (THAT was cool!). Those are the things that set the vette apart. Some guys need it for the ego boost or whatever, but I just wanted the whole package. Will be getting a C6 next :bow: .

Dude, go drive a Corvette. If after that drive, you still have questions about the relative worth of the Corvette over the top end Camaro, well then I don't know what to tell you. Some people may not see the difference, being a car guy, I am betting you won't be one of them.

Dude, go drive a Corvette. If after that drive, you still have questions about the relative worth of the Corvette over the top end Camaro, well then I don't know what to tell you. Some people may not see the difference, being a car guy, I am betting you won't be one of them.
I realize there is a difference - I've drivern, many, many 'Vettes over the years in fact, going out and driving cars of all kinds is a favorite pasttime of mine. :D

Maybe the question that needs to be asked is why should GM build the Camaro? Some here hold up the ZO6 as the poster child for what a car should be and perhaps rightly so, but I think it is a fair question to ask what the marketing strategy is that supports building both a Camaro and a Corvette (especially from the same nameplate; Chevrolet)? Is having a virtually unusable back seat really that importnat??? If it were produced in greater volumes and in slightly different configurations, couldn't versions of the Corvette be priced at a point that many who could and would afford a Camaro be able to buy a Corvette?

Ford is using the Mustang to compete in a variety of market segments; everything from the little six-banger two door coupe that are a big hit with high school girls all the way to the the monster GT500 that hits right at the Z06/Viper (on paper at least)...we can argue "DNA" and "history" and tradition of course but I think it really bears asking why is the Camaro needed...couldn't Chevrolet actully be more successful overall by using the Corvet platform to compete in multiple segments and at multiple price levels???

Not trying to start WW3 here...just asking.

I test drove a Z51 C6 at Autoshow in Motion. Damn was that an awesome car! However, I still would rather have the top dog Camaro, even if its the same price as a Corvette and the Vette is faster and handles better.

But then I'm funny that way. :p

The Camaro is there as an affordable V8 coupe.. i'd hardly call the Vette affordable to the "everyman" out there.. and it's not very practical either being that it only has two seats

the Camaro is a car your average buyer can afford, it's more practical, has a real trunk, and a back seat.. which is plenty big enough to put the kids in and drive the family around.. if not big enough to fit adults for extended trips

The Camaro is there as an affordable V8 coupe.. i'd hardly call the Vette affordable to the "everyman" out there.. and it's not very practical either being that it only has two seats

the Camaro is a car your average buyer can afford, it's more practical, has a real trunk, and a back seat.. which is plenty big enough to put the kids in and drive the family around.. if not big enough to fit adults for extended trips
I think you missed the point of the question...

No question that the Camaro is more "practical" than a Corvette but that's not the same thing as being practical. There are planty of truly practical cars out there that not only are significantly more practical than the Camaro but perform well too.

Current price differential isn't an issue either; as I said above, if Chevrolet wanted to do so, they could easily produce different versions of the 'Vette at many price points, including a price that the "average guy" could afford.

I'm also not talking personal preference here (or tradition or history or DNA of the cars, etc)...I'm asking from a real-life marketing prespective; what is the justification for GM to build a Camaro and a Corvette?

Maybe there really isn't any and if that's the case, so be it...again; I'm just asking.

I think you missed the point of the question...

No question that the Camaro is more "practical" than a Corvette but that's not the same thing as being practical. There are planty of truly practical cars out there that not only are significantly more practical than the Camaro but perform well too.

Current price differential isn't an issue either; as I said above, if Chevrolet wanted to do so, they could easily produce different versions of the 'Vette at many price points, including a price that the "average guy" could afford.

I'm also not talking personal preference here (or tradition or history or DNA of the cars, etc)...I'm asking from a real-life marketing prespective; what is the justification for GM to build a Camaro and a Corvette?

Maybe there really isn't any and if that's the case, so be it...again; I'm just asking.



I see where you are going with that. I think the reason is that the two cars really do appeal to two different buyers even after adjusting for the price differential. Now, if GM were to change some things to drop the price point for the Vette it would raise two questions; the first of which being, would the costs associated with making such a move be justified by the potential increase in sales or would GM be better off just taking those costs and dumping it into another platform all together that will possibly yield an even larger customer base than by expanding the vette.

I think it makes sense to produce the two cars for much the same reason as the dabate a few weeks ago about the 350z and the camaro. Although they can be made to sell at around the same car, they are just not in the same category.

Even if I could pick up a Vette at the same price or even slightly lower than a camaro I still wouldn't simply becasue of the utility of the Camaro. The vettes have a much smaller cargo area by comarison and no back seat. A Camaro is simply more of an everyday car and as such will appeal to more people than the vette regardless of price.

GM would be fine with keeping HP the same in the Camaro and Vette. People are more aware of weight differences these days. I expect around a 400-500 pound difference once the Camaro comes out. Customers realize that the Vette will still be faster, even if the top Camaro has MORE HP (forget real limited versions).

2 reason to build the Camaro & Corvette:

Reason 1- Camaro (V-6) is marketed toward a wide spectrum of car buyers who want a sporty, yet practical car an inexpensive car.
Camaro (V-8) is marketed toward people in their late 20's an older, those who can afford a $30,000 sports car and want a 'practical' or 'somewhat practical' car.
Corvette is marketed for those who can afford a +$40,000 car designed purley for performace. Even though 85% of them will never race it.

I can afford a Vette, but I will tell you as long as a Camaro is on the market I will NEVER buy one, unless I had both. For me the Camaro is practical for daily driving where the Vette is not.

Also, everyones defination of practical is different. What is prctical for you is not practical for me.

Reason 2- look at Mustang sales. (nothing more needs to be said)

I have a hard time seeing why some people have a problem with a version of the Camaro having more horsepower than a Corvette. No matter how much horsepower the Camaro has it wil NEVER perform the same as a Vette. It will ALWAYS be heaver than a Vette. It will ALWAYS have a backseat. It will ALWAYS have a higher center of gravity.....

The Camaro won't have more power, but even if they have the same engine the Corvette will be faster because it is lighter.

Of course jsut as soon as the aftermarket starts churning out goodies for the new Camaro this whole discussion become rather moot IMO.

Current price differential isn't an issue either; as I said above, if Chevrolet wanted to do so, they could easily produce different versions of the 'Vette at many price points, including a price that the "average guy" could afford.

I'm also not talking personal preference here (or tradition or history or DNA of the cars, etc)...I'm asking from a real-life marketing prespective; what is the justification for GM to build a Camaro and a Corvette?

C'mon Nissan boy, that's kind of like asking what the point is of building a new Skyline...I'm sure they could easily build a Skyline at many different price points including one that the "average guy" could afford....heck it's even based on the G35/350Z platform is it not?

And speaking of the G35, what's the point of building a G35 coupe and a 350Z? They're even closer in price than Camaro/Corvette.

You know the answer. Two different missions. One's a 2-seat sports car, one's a 4 seat pony car. One's mission is to beat up cars costing twice as much, one has a mission of supplying the average person with a sporty ride (V6) all the way up to, again, outperforming cars costing twice as much.

EDIT: Wow this is old!

The Camaro won't have more power, but even if they have the same engine the Corvette will be faster because it is lighter.

You cant say that because you dont know.

The camaro might have the EXACT same engine as the base vette.

Keep in mind it still wont be as quick, or handle as good, but their are more times than i can count on one hand that the Camaro has "outpowered" the corvette.

Its not all about whats under the hood, the corvette is an iconic pure sports car...the camaro, a pony car to the roots.

2 different markets, 2 different buyers, and 2 different types of automobiles.

IMO, give us the Base vette engine, make it 450 hp and price it under 35,000 and it will be a winner in my book.

You cant say that because you dont know.

The camaro might have the EXACT same engine as the base vette.

Keep in mind it still wont be as quick, or handle as good, but their are more times than i can count on one hand that the Camaro has "outpowered" the corvette.

Its not all about whats under the hood, the corvette is an iconic pure sports car...the camaro, a pony car to the roots.

2 different markets, 2 different buyers, and 2 different types of automobiles.

IMO, give us the Base vette engine, make it 450 hp and price it under 35,000 and it will be a winner in my book.

exactly i agree with you, there is no way the camaro will out run the vette because it will weigh more and its a 4 seater, the corvette is mostly fiberglass. I hope for a 6.2 liter 450hp RS/SS fully loaded except for conv. for around 36,000

exactly i agree with you, there is no way the camaro will out run the vette because it will weigh more and its a 4 seater, the corvette is mostly fiberglass. I hope for a 6.2 liter 450hp RS/SS fully loaded except for conv. for around 36,000

To be honest, i would love that too, but i would be happy with a 420-425 hp 6.2 as well.

I have a feeling that we will either get 20-25 hp less than the Vette, or we will get the same motor. Either way, anything over 400 hp and under 35k has my attention.

To be honest, i would love that too, but i would be happy with a 420-425 hp 6.2 as well.

I have a feeling that we will either get 20-25 hp less than the Vette, or we will get the same motor. Either way, anything over 400 hp and under 35k has my attention.

I can't agree with you more there! I really don't think the 6.2L is going to be cranking out 450HP anyway. Realistically I think it will be closer to 430. The Camaro may well be underrated just like they were in the 4th gens with the 6.2 putting out 430HP, but rated at like 405 or something crazy like that. Eitherway, I just want a 400+HP Camaro for under $35k...

Maybe I'm the minority when I would like a V8 around 350 HP for well under 30K...IDK maybe I'm just not power hungry.

Maybe I'm the minority when I would like a V8 around 350 HP for well under 30K...IDK maybe I'm just not power hungry.

If the price difference was really that great then yeah, I would consider it. However, I really can not see how a ~420HP V-8 would be that much more than a 350HP V-8 unless they are artifically inflating the price of the 420HP package. If I have the option of getting a ~420 HP Camaro for just $2-3k more than a 350HP Camaro I will get the ~420 HP version everytime. Now if that difference is more like ~5k then I would have to reconsider, but primarily becasue I would feel like I am getting ripped off becasue the LS3 could not possibly be that much more expensive.

LS3 numbers are now out.

Base Vette (coupe/vert): 425 HP
Z51 Vette: 435 HP (I'm assuming due to the Z06 exhaust)

LS3 numbers are now out.

Base Vette (coupe/vert): 425 HP
Z51 Vette: 435 HP (I'm assuming due to the Z06 exhaust)

Where did you get these?

Let's just say I think I got it from a pretty reliable source. We'll just have to wait and see in a few weeks.

LS3 numbers are now out.

Base Vette (coupe/vert): 425 HP
Z51 Vette: 435 HP (I'm assuming due to the Z06 exhaust)That's the same thing I posted last week as rumor from the corvette forums. The numbers aren't out yet, at least nobody on the corvette forum have said anything.

Let's just say I think I got it from a pretty reliable source. We'll just have to wait and see in a few weeks.

Those numbers are right on target with what I had expected to see, but I just had not read anything that is official yet. You are right though, we will see in about a month.

LS3 numbers are now out.

Base Vette (coupe/vert): 425 HP
Z51 Vette: 435 HP (I'm assuming due to the Z06 exhaust)

Damn, that means we wont see over 425 hp, maybe 400 would be my guess.

BUT I HOOOOOPE FOR 425

Maybe I'm the minority when I would like a V8 around 350 HP for well under 30K...IDK maybe I'm just not power hungry.



I'm all for a mid-level v8 Camaro for under 30k.

Damn, that means we wont see over 425 hp, maybe 400 would be my guess.

BUT I HOOOOOPE FOR 425

I would like to think that GM is over the whole Corvette supremacy debacle. I mean they did have the GTO with the same HP rating as the vette and no one seemed to mind. I would have to think think that the Camaro will be rated at the same level as the base Corvette....

GM may offer a Base model V8 and use the mass produced 5.3 that would give low 300hp power range... hopefully for mid to high 20's

Up the option to the 6.2 LS3 and be in the low to mid 30's

HOPEFULLY, the general will give us a SUPER CAR Motor option. (so we don't have to buy SALEEN CAMARO's)

with the 6.2 S/C or 427

I believe this will be the v8 engine line up. :cool:

Damn, that means we wont see over 425 hp, maybe 400 would be my guess.But, then you're assuming the Corvette's numbers don't increase in the next two years. Since when has GM ever stood still? :D

GM may offer a Base model V8 and use the mass produced 5.3 that would give low 300hp power range... hopefully for mid to high 20's

Up the option to the 6.2 LS3 and be in the low to mid 30's

HOPEFULLY, the general will give us a SUPER CAR Motor option. (so we don't have to buy SALEEN CAMARO's)

with the 6.2 S/C or 427

I believe this will be the v8 engine line up. :cool:

If the new Hot Rod amagzine holds any truth whatsoever (we all know the reliability of information in the auto rags ;) ) the 6.2L s/c LS3 will make an appearance in the new Camaro. I sure hope that is true :D

If the new Hot Rod amagzine holds any truth whatsoever (we all know the reliability of information in the auto rags ;) ) the 6.2L s/c LS3 will make an appearance in the new Camaro. I sure hope that is true :D
You and me both! ;)

But, then you're assuming the Corvette's numbers don't increase in the next two years. Since when has GM ever stood still? :D

Well, I said 425, so i am assuming that the Vette is getting 425 hp, and the Camaro will have the same.

But as of right now, we would get 400.

Although, like most people here, I hope GM has ended the bigger penis contest between the Vette/Maro.

they are 2 different balls of fun, and they attract 2 different markets...whats the problem in having the same hp...

You and me both! ;)

Ill 3rd that. :bow:

Maybe I'm the minority when I would like a V8 around 350 HP for well under 30K...IDK maybe I'm just not power hungry.

Probably not in the minority, a 3600 lbs mustang with 300hp will get you in the mid 13s which ain't a bad place to be for some sporty everyday transportation that cost under 30k

As it isn't in my future purchase plans, I'm not sure which would be a better seller for the mid-range Camaro, a 350hp V6 or a 350hp V8. When you're settling for less than one of the top V8s, does two extra cylinders really mean that much?

Personally I hope Hot Rod is dead on and we get N/A 450hp and S/C 550hp versions of the 6.2L. But then I may be in the minority. ;)

the monster GT500 that hits right at the Z06/Viper (on paper at least)....



The mustang gt 500 hits right at the Z06???? :nuts: :D

The Vette and the Camaro are two different cars with different backrounds and followings as someone else said. I for one am just going to wait and see what they actually do for the top Camaro and see what the price will be. I mean a used low miles LS-2 Z51 Vette will be what 35K by then. The Camaro has always been the affordable V8 coupe for the masses while the Corvette has been targeted for more race oriented group and older people.