Interesting Dateline show last night on E85...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

At age 51, Vinod Khosla is one of the world’s most successful venture capitalists and a self-made multibillionaire.

He came to the U.S. from India in 1976, and over the next 25 years, is said to have created six new jobs for every day he’d been in the country. Though not a household name, Khosla was a co-founder of Sun Microsystems and renowned in business circles for his meticulous research and ability to spot the kind of innovative technology that can revolutionize an industry.



I've yet to see a real downside to ethanol production as a means to lessen our oil dependancies...but I do see real upsides to it.

More....

But what really intoxicates him isn’t what he tasted, but the opportunity he sees in what’s being thrown away. With new technology, Khosla says you can process these mountains of leftovers and triple the amount of ethanol you get, dramatically reducing costs.

Khosla: My bet is it’d be a lot cheaper than $1 a gallon. It might even be less than 70 cents a gallon right there. Right today.

And that’s exactly Khosla’s vision for America— putting new generation ethanol plants next to paper mills, turning their leftovers into fuel. Or even next to orange juice factories, where he says ethanol from peels could replace petroleum.

But that’s only part of it. To really make America an ethanol nation, Khosla says billions of gallons will come from something as common as prairie grass. He says it’ll be much cheaper and deliver 10 times the energy it takes to make it.

Okay, so how about the government keeps my $100 and gives the private sector inventives to do this?

As long as big oil is in control, don't expect any major steps towards weaning ourselves off of it. America needs to s**t of get off the pot, and real soon.

The problem with E85 is that its a short term solution. It still requires some fossil fuel useage and in this case its typically a lower grade of gasoline that the ethanol is combined with. What needs to be done is a more serious push with alternative fuel sources and powerplants that won't rely heavily on fossil fuels, rather than sinking a huge financial investment into something that can only be a short term solution. It really is time to start thinking outside the box.

The problem with E85 is that its a short term solution. It still requires some fossil fuel useage and in this case its typically a lower grade of gasoline that the ethanol is combined with. What needs to be done is a more serious push with alternative fuel sources and powerplants that won't rely heavily on fossil fuels, rather than sinking a huge financial investment into something that can only be a short term solution. It really is time to start thinking outside the box.

It does not require fossiel fuel to make ehtonal. It requires energy. That can come from nuclear, wind, water, electric, natural gas, oil, what ever.

Now, you do have to mix it with 15% gas....mainly do to cold starts.

It does not require fossiel fuel to make ehtonal. It requires energy. That can come from nuclear, wind, water, electric, natural gas, oil, what ever.

Now, you do have to mix it with 15% gas....mainly do to cold starts.

Yep. Exactly. I am getting sick and tired of having to point out known *facts*.

-Ethanol can be derived from wood chips, wood sawdust (vast, humungous amounts of this are produced every year in the USA alone), wood pulp, switchgass, pine-needles, corn - and that's just for starters. The processes and yields may be different for different source materials and some of these processes need more work to become commerically viable - but that is a matter of demand. Not *if* it can be done.

-Ethanol can be used to produce more Ethanol. Well, duh!

-Ethanol is suitable for production and consumption near large populations promoting localised energy independance. If the refineries on the coast get trashed again... people in the Mid-West still will have fuel.

-American Farmers and local farm economies will benefit.

-It's so friggin' obvious to anyone without their head in the sand that the only people who don't want Ethanol are big-oil, the coal crowd and their hangers on in the political structure.

-Fossil fuel industry must at all costs not be allowed to stifle or take over the fledgling Ethanol industry. Competition not monopoly is what makes capitalism work for all of us - not just the fat cat oil execs. Getting off of oil is a national security priority and anyone with an ounce of genuine pride and patriotism should embrace the notion.

-Um, if Ethanol is a short term solution (which it is not if we choose to embrace it) then what the f***k is gasolene? It ain't gonna last forever and is truly non-renewable. Ethanol s derived from renewable sources. Hybrid gas / electric cars - now there's a short-term solution!

Yep. Exactly. I am getting sick and tired of having to point out known *facts*.

:bow:

I think some people aren't letting themselves believe this for some reason. And I don't know why...

They can have my leaves and lawn mower clipping to make Ethanol with, I don't need them :D

What pissed me off in that video is what the oil guy told the Ethanol guy "don't mess with us, we can drop the price of gas very easily and put you out of buisness" :mad: basically admiting that they are artificially keeping gas prices high now.

If it works in Brazil (5 largest population in the world, USA is #3) then it can work in the USA. We don't even need E85 or E100. Since we import 58% of our oil (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/oildep.shtml) we really only need to use E58 (or the national avg. of) to become independant.

Making all regular gas E10 and requiring all new cars by 2012 to be E85 compatable would be a good start. Like the video said, the best thing about E85 is that you have choice over what fuel you put in your car.

Now, you do have to mix it with 15% gas....mainly do to cold starts.

Which is what I was referring to. There is no current plan run 100% ethanol in the US. You would still be mixing it with low grade gasoline. When you consider the inital start up costs, this means a huge investment into something is still primarily based on fossil fuels and is still a short term solution.

For the long term we need to go back to the drawing board and look at other alternatives. Electric vehicles died because of the expense of (and size of) batteries. Why? Hasn't technology advanced in the last 10 years? Look at the diminishing sizes of electronic devices, the size of their power sources and their usuable life and tell me this can't be done.

The oil companies and the auto manufacturers would love for E85 to be a long term solution, but they know it really isn't. All I'm suggesting is that we don't limit ourselves to dying technologies.

Yep. Exactly. I am getting sick and tired of having to point out known *facts*.

-Ethanol can be derived from wood chips, wood sawdust (vast, humungous amounts of this are produced every year in the USA alone), wood pulp, switchgass, pine-needles, corn - and that's just for starters. The processes and yields may be different for different source materials and some of these processes need more work to become commerically viable - but that is a matter of demand. Not *if* it can be done.

-Ethanol can be used to produce more Ethanol. Well, duh!

-Ethanol is suitable for production and consumption near large populations promoting localised energy independance. If the refineries on the coast get trashed again... people in the Mid-West still will have fuel.

-American Farmers and local farm economies will benefit.

-It's so friggin' obvious to anyone without their head in the sand that the only people who don't want Ethanol are big-oil, the coal crowd and their hangers on in the political structure.

-Fossil fuel industry must at all costs not be allowed to stifle or take over the fledgling Ethanol industry. Competition not monopoly is what makes capitalism work for all of us - not just the fat cat oil execs. Getting off of oil is a national security priority and anyone with an ounce of genuine pride and patriotism should embrace the notion.

-Um, if Ethanol is a short term solution (which it is not if we choose to embrace it) then what the f***k is gasolene? It ain't gonna last forever and is truly non-renewable. Ethanol s derived from renewable sources. Hybrid gas / electric cars - now there's a short-term solution!

You need to step off your pedestal for a second bub. I'm not saying gasoline is the answer. I'm saying that ethanol is not the long-term solution to our gasoline and oil problems. Ethanol also is not the environmentally friendly and clean fuel alternative its proponents would lead us to believe it is.

We need a cleaner and more viable long-term energy solution. While ethanol may be an improvement, is it a step in the right direction, or is it just prolonging the inevitable?

You've got a legitimate idea here: battery technology has increased tremendously since GM put away it's EV1 vehicles. If you made a vehicle that had a 150 mile/day range and could be recharged overnight, I think many many people would be attracted to it has the "2nd vehicle in a household". You wouldn't take it on trips, but you could do your daily errands and commute to/from work easily - and never see a gas pump again.

You've got a legitimate idea here: battery technology has increased tremendously since GM put away it's EV1 vehicles. If you made a vehicle that had a 150 mile/day range and could be recharged overnight, I think many many people would be attracted to it has the "2nd vehicle in a household". You wouldn't take it on trips, but you could do your daily errands and commute to/from work easily - and never see a gas pump again.


There is still the matter of Heat and A/C. Heat wouldn't be a big problem, but it would cause a large drain in energy. A/C would be a lot more problamatic. It may not be a big deal in the north where you can get by without it but I know I would need it here!

As far as E85 goes. Since you only need 15% of the amount of gas you can make gas last over 6 times longer than it does now! So if we have 20 years of gas left that would convert into over 120 years!! That leaves us with a lot of time to come up with other alternatives.

You've got a legitimate idea here: battery technology has increased tremendously since GM put away it's EV1 vehicles. If you made a vehicle that had a 150 mile/day range and could be recharged overnight, I think many many people would be attracted to it has the "2nd vehicle in a household". You wouldn't take it on trips, but you could do your daily errands and commute to/from work easily - and never see a gas pump again.


True.....BUT, what fuel do you use to make the electricity to re-charge the batteries? Using more fuel to make power lessens it's real benefit. What happens to our infrastructure when a couple of million vehicles are drawing heavy amps during recharging?

This also still doesn't fix a real problem with electric cars...recharge time. How do you drive long distances, as in across country or on a vacation when you have to stop and wait for hours to recharge? Sure, you could do it at night while sleeping, but I've driven over 1,000 miles in a day....no electric car will ever do that....not in my life time.

Batteries still suck and they are very toxic so disposal is also a PITA.

Heat wouldn't be a big problem, but it would cause a large drain in energy. A/C would be a lot more problamatic.Actually, you have it exactly backwards. The heat would likely be a larger power drain than the AC. The delta-T when using heat is typically much larger than when using AC. Consider the possibility that you could use a heat pump (AC unit that can reverse the freon cycle), just like a home uses.
True.....BUT, what fuel do you use to make the electricity to re-charge the batteries? Using more fuel to make power lessens it's real benefit. What happens to our infrastructure when a couple of million vehicles are drawing heavy amps during recharging?

This also still doesn't fix a real problem with electric cars...recharge time. How do you drive long distances, as in across country or on a vacation when you have to stop and wait for hours to recharge? Sure, you could do it at night while sleeping, but I've driven over 1,000 miles in a day....no electric car will ever do that....not in my life time.How many cars does your household have? We have three- a TL, a Honda Accord, and my old Z28. The TL is the "family" car, and pretty much gets taken on trips exclusively (except for car show runs;) ), and the Accord is my work commute car. I run 6.0 miles each way to work, and use it to putz around to the stores and such (all within that 6.0 mile circle). An electric car with a 100 mile range would suit me just fine.
You are correct on one thing, though- large-scale plug ins of battery loads like this would be problematic for the elec. cos., particularly in the summer. Here's a solution- Make Arnold's "Million Solar Roofs" campaign go nationwide!:)

.......How many cars does your household have? ........

5....but that doesn't answer the big question.

.....An electric car with a 100 mile range would suit me just fine.
You are correct on one thing, though- large-scale plug ins of battery loads like this would be problematic for the elec. cos., particularly in the summer. Here's a solution- Make Arnold's "Million Solar Roofs" campaign go nationwide!:)

The big question here is replacing ALL cars (say in the next 10 years +) with vehicles that use very little, if any imported, or even domestic oil.

If all electric vehicles can offer to be is a "second" car....then you've only solved half or less (1/3 for you, 1/5 for me) of the equation.

Menthanol has the capability....along with biodeisel to cut into this percentage MUCH deeper.........and with a much less disruptive strain on the infrastructure.

Imagine being able to buy your own mini distiller to produce your own menthanol at home...using grass clippings, wood chips, corn, or whatever else.....THAT is what excites me.

I don't ever see Electric Cars becoming mainstream. We would need some "Non-Toxic", Long Lasting, Fast Rechargable Batteries that also had a long life and relatively cheap to replace.

Most people have 1 or 2 cars and don't have the ability to have a "Work Only" car.

IC Engines will be around for the next 2 centuries EASY. I don't consider that short term. Also, engines CAN run off of 100% ethanol. It just requires a few more changes then the E85 engines need. I see Ethanol being mainstream by the time i'm in my 50's. (25yrs) I don't see Electrics running around at all...

Just this last weekend I gave up on my Dewalt Rechargable Drill because I was doing some "Heavy" drilling and it kept running out of juice. So I brought out old faithful (Plug-In Model) and finished the complete job. Current Battery technology is not even close.

What pissed me off in that video is what the oil guy told the Ethanol guy "don't mess with us, we can drop the price of gas very easily and put you out of buisness" :mad: basically admiting that they are artificially keeping gas prices high now.


I agree, but yet it is not the fault of the oil companies that gas prices are so high if you listen to them..... :rolleyes:

Awesome. Let's just hope Ethanol doesn't go for $3 a gallon!

You need to step off your pedestal for a second bub. I'm not saying gasoline is the answer. I'm saying that ethanol is not the long-term solution to our gasoline and oil problems. Ethanol also is not the environmentally friendly and clean fuel alternative its proponents would lead us to believe it is.

We need a cleaner and more viable long-term energy solution. While ethanol may be an improvement, is it a step in the right direction, or is it just prolonging the inevitable?

Yeah, that's what what big oil's public relations dept. wants people to believe. I guess all those people in Brazil driving cars powered by Ethanol are just wrong too.

Sorry "bub", but you got it wrong - you're getting your info from the wrong places.. Ethanol as fuel when produced using Ethanol and other alternatives *will* be way cleaner than fossil fuel. The amount of global warming inducing greenhouse gasses that result from such a production / consumption scheme will be far less than you get from contuing consuming oil. Plus, I never said Ethanol is the only answer. It is part of the solution, and yes there may be even better solutions down the road but for now using Ethanol is far better than continuing down the road of fossil based fuels.

Also, you ever looked at all the toxic crap that is in gasolene. Mmm-mmm... gotta love those lovely crude oil spills washing up on the coastline too.

You have any better ideas "bub" for alternatives that are viable *right now*? I guess we shouldn't try anything new because nothing new and seemingly a bit "radical" was ever any good! :rolleyes:

Current Battery technology is not even close.

Haven't played much with RC cars or airplanes in the last year or two, eh?

WIth my electricity here going up 72% in june, there is no way in hell I would ever consider an electric car. They are just not practical.

Haven't played much with RC cars or airplanes in the last year or two, eh?

Eric, mind enlightening me on this RC car thing?

Eric, mind enlightening me on this RC car thing?

Between the adaptation of brushless DC ("BLDC") motors and high-discharge-rate lithium polymer ("lipo") cells, there has been an enormous improvement in electric RC car and airplane performance. For example, my little RC18B (a 1:18 scale buggy) with a brushless motor and inexpensive lipo pack has no problem catching up with traffic in front of my house (the speed limit on my road is 55 MPH) and it'll rip up around at those speeds for a good 20 minutes or so. I've nearly given up on running my nitro models, since the only additional thing they provide is a bit of cool noise and that sweet stinging smell of methanol and nitro.

I think it'd be a bit naive to say that we could immediately scale things up to 1:1 scale and obtain a practical electric commuter car, but to ignore the improvements in battery, motor, and controller technology in the last decade is absolutely foolish, and there's definitely more to come.

Battery technology has gotten a lot better, just look at Lithium Ion batteries, they are smaller in size, weight less, last longer. Toyota's next hybrids will use Lithium Ion cells to reduce weight among other things.

The only reason why Ethanol won't be popular as it should be is just because the government is in bed with the oil industry, until the economy is in complete chaos, nobody will care about high gas prices.

There's no excuse for us NOT to produce E85 to supply the needs of North Americans especially since we have the land for crops. The government just doesn't want to invest in it and without government involvement like in Brasil, it will never become the answer.

Can you just imagine a Toyota Yaris sized car with E85/Electric Hybrid???? Now that would be thrifty transportation.:D

A hybrid with all lithium ion batteries will probably be so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe could own them.

A hybrid with all lithium ion batteries will probably be so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe could own them.

A dozen years ago, when I was working with NiMH batteries, the same could be said about them. And now look where we're at - that same battery technology is the cost-leader in consumer products. Give LiPo a couple more years and we'll be saying the same thing about it, too, and there are several other low-cost lithium technologies on the way.

Between the adaptation of brushless DC ("BLDC") motors and high-discharge-rate lithium polymer ("lipo") cells, there has been an enormous improvement in electric RC car and airplane performance. For example, my little RC18B (a 1:18 scale buggy) with a brushless motor and inexpensive lipo pack has no problem catching up with traffic in front of my house (the speed limit on my road is 55 MPH) and it'll rip up around at those speeds for a good 20 minutes or so. I've nearly given up on running my nitro models, since the only additional thing they provide is a bit of cool noise and that sweet stinging smell of methanol and nitro.

I think it'd be a bit naive to say that we could immediately scale things up to 1:1 scale and obtain a practical electric commuter car, but to ignore the improvements in battery, motor, and controller technology in the last decade is absolutely foolish, and there's definitely more to come.

Thanks. I had an RC10 about 12 years ago. It didn't go nearly as fast and the batteries only lasted about 10 minutes (although recharging took only about 12, so you could keep swapping batteries to keep it running).

This kind of thing makes me wonder what GM could do with the exact same EV1 they had in 1990, but with newer motors and batteries.

This kind of thing makes me wonder what GM could do with the exact same EV1 they had in 1990, but with newer motors and batteries.

I wonder the same thing, and I'd really like to see that effort coupled with a no-holds-barred attack on vehicle weight.

To be perfectly honest, I think that a plug-in HEV is still probably more practical for American driving habits than a full EV, but both could make good use of the same technology. And of course that PHEV could be powered by whatever fuel our politicians think best for us - it's E85 this month, but it'll probably be something else by election time.