Heavy Duty Truck Rumors in Detroit

Rumors seem to indicate the HD truck diesel landscape has the possibility of changing substantially.

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/autoshows/naias2006/diesels/page1.html

I will find it hard to see Toyota take sales from Ford, since they own most of the market. GM took sales from Dodge with the 6.6 and allision tranny. I don't think Ford lost that much. Ford basically owns the market and there buyers are extremely loyal. I have heard of companies switching trucks just bcuz of the employees they have. I know out here is KC, if its any kind of acutal work truck, it is usually a Ford...especially if it is a desiel.

well thats the thing.. The article argues that brand loyalty in the commerical sector isn't very strong.. Whether thats true or not, I don't know.


It will be interesting either way. If the imports are serious, then they have to persuade the customers not only the trucks are capabile and reliable, but they are easy to service, and parts are readily available.. And seeing how much money Toyota is sitting on, I think they have a good chance on being successful over time.

People said similar things about brand loyalty and such (not taking imports seriously) even as they were growing significantly.

I suspect that if Toyota/Nissan/etc build trucks that can do the job and have obvious benefits (HP, towing capacity, other considerations) and/or for the same or less money, they can take sales from GM and Ford.

This time around, however, I doubt that GM/Ford will be slow to respond with product that will seek to maintain their truck market-share.

People said similar things about brand loyalty and such (not taking imports seriously) even as they were growing significantly.

I suspect that if Toyota/Nissan/etc build trucks that can do the job and have obvious benefits (HP, towing capacity, other considerations) and/or for the same or less money, they can take sales from GM and Ford.

This time around, however, I doubt that GM/Ford will be slow to respond with product that will seek to maintain their truck market-share.

I think you are right, and also this time around GM Ford will see it coming and offer Products that one up the competition before they even get a chance like Ford did with the F-150 to the Titan and GM will do with the GMT900s to Toyota

Using a Cummins Diesel would certainly add credibility to Toyota's pickup truck offerings. Just look at what it did for Dodge back in the early 90s when their pickup truck design was over 25 years old and by far the worst on the market. I could see them picking up a sizable chunk of the market if the rest of the truck is any good (and I'm sure it will be; Toyota is a quick learner).

However the leadtime to design a modern Diesel engine from scratch is quite long, much longer than a gasoline engine. If Toyota is just "talking" to Cummins right now, you can't expect their engine to be on the market this decade.

And what of Dodge? I'm amazed they've hung onto the antiquated 5.9 this long. It'd be tough to market their 40-year-old Diesel as anything special when their competitor has the newest and best from the very same manufacturer. Why not tap into Detroit Diesel's (a former GM company, now part of DCX) expertise? An American name under the hood would probably resonate better than "Mercedes-Benz".

Using a Cummins Diesel would certainly add credibility to Toyota's pickup truck offerings. Just look at what it did for Dodge back in the early 90s when their pickup truck design was over 25 years old and by far the worst on the market. I could see them picking up a sizable chunk of the market if the rest of the truck is any good (and I'm sure it will be; Toyota is a quick learner).

However the leadtime to design a modern Diesel engine from scratch is quite long, much longer than a gasoline engine. If Toyota is just "talking" to Cummins right now, you can't expect their engine to be on the market this decade.

And what of Dodge? I'm amazed they've hung onto the antiquated 5.9 this long. It'd be tough to market their 40-year-old Diesel as anything special when their competitor has the newest and best from the very same manufacturer. Why not tap into Detroit Diesel's (a former GM company, now part of DCX) expertise? An American name under the hood would probably resonate better than "Mercedes-Benz".
There is talk of Dodge getting the bigger 6 from Cummings, the 6.7L.

One thing that is proof that, the Ford buyers are loyal atleast, is that the drivetrain in the Fords is not the best. A couple years ago when I had a friend working at a local dealer, he said of all the F-series trucks there, about 75% were there for transmission problems. If you can have those kind fo problems and not lose customers, then I don't think there is much else you have to do.

Ford also seems to be the leader in innovations in HD trucks. I don't know, that may just be a perception, but like it has been said before, perception is everything.

There is talk of Dodge getting the bigger 6 from Cummings, the 6.7L.

One thing that is proof that, the Ford buyers are loyal atleast, is that the drivetrain in the Fords is not the best. A couple years ago when I had a friend working at a local dealer, he said of all the F-series trucks there, about 75% were there for transmission problems. If you can have those kind fo problems and not lose customers, then I don't think there is much else you have to do.

Ford also seems to be the leader in innovations in HD trucks. I don't know, that may just be a perception, but like it has been said before, perception is everything.

Strange you should say that, my most recent truck prior to my current one was an F150 and it was the transmission that went out on me!

Around here there have been alot of people having trouble with all of the diesels, especially the new 6.0 powerstroke. That motor sucks from what almost everyone around here (who got one and used it as a work truck) says. They have had tremendous trouble, and I have heared so many stories of people saying they will never buy a ford diesel again. But its not just the powerstroke, one of my dads friends got a brand new dodge, and the motor scattered at about 3000 miles, and then after they got that motor replaced, the turbo went out. Also, I know that a while back the Duramax had some trouble with the injectors, and they had several come in with blown head gaskets. So all of the desiels have had trouble, but around here, most people prefer the Cummins, and most dislike the powerstroke. If i had a choice, I would choose the cummins, because around here they are known for being the best. I know people who have bought one of each, and they prefered the cummins. So think what you may, but this is just whats goin on around here.

I think Ford is suppose the replace the 6.0 powerstroke with a redesigned and larger desiel last I heard, but that maybe old news.

I don't know anyone with a powerstroke personally, just from talking to people I run into and from people my friends work with. Thats the first time I have heard about some problems with the Cummings. Those Dodge guys are pretty loyal to that motor and talk highly about it. I'm pretty sure that Dodge is suppose to be putting the 5spd Mec tranny behind there soon.

FYI, it is Cummins, not "cummings". There is no "g" in the word.

Also, Detroit Diesel and MBE are both part of DCX. They can (and surely will) take existing diesels based on MBE designs and market them as Detroit Diesels or MBEs.

Freightliner (also owned by DCX) offers Mercedes-branded engines in its trucks currently

Ford has an apparent lock on Navistar's Power Stroke diesel.

This part of the article is not entirely new. Ford only has a "lock" on the name "Power Stroke".

Around here there have been alot of people having trouble with all of the diesels, especially the new 6.0 powerstroke. That motor sucks from what almost everyone around here (who got one and used it as a work truck) says. They have had tremendous trouble, and I have heared so many stories of people saying they will never buy a ford diesel again. But its not just the powerstroke, one of my dads friends got a brand new dodge, and the motor scattered at about 3000 miles, and then after they got that motor replaced, the turbo went out. Also, I know that a while back the Duramax had some trouble with the injectors, and they had several come in with blown head gaskets. So all of the desiels have had trouble, but around here, most people prefer the Cummins, and most dislike the powerstroke. If i had a choice, I would choose the cummins, because around here they are known for being the best. I know people who have bought one of each, and they prefered the cummins. So think what you may, but this is just whats goin on around here.


This is not true. The warranty claims on the 6.0L powerstroke are lower than on the old 7.3L powerstroke.

This is not true. The warranty claims on the 6.0L powerstroke are lower than on the old 7.3L powerstroke.


I read an article that there was a problem with alot of the early 2000ish powerstroke engines.. For stepped in and made sure it got fixed for future models. So I would be staying away from the early 2000ish powerstroke Ford's..

here we go.. article about power storke problems

Ford's diesel drama drags on: Power Stroke woes anger buyers, drive up warranty costs
RICHARD TRUETT | Automotive News
Posted Date: 12/14/05
James and Penny Schrader have bought Fords faithfully for 30 years.

But persistent problems with the Power Stroke diesel engine in their 2004 F-250 pickup have unraveled three decades of brand loyalty. The Schraders, both 63, put a second mortgage on their home in Linden, Mich., to buy the $45,000 truck. Now they say they'll probably never buy another Ford.

"My husband wouldn't look at anything else," says Penny Schrader of their pickup. "But I don't care how good their product was in the past. They haven't treated me well as a loyal customer."

The Schraders aren't alone. Ford Motor Co. has been sued at least 58 times by consumers who bought 2003- and 2004-model Power Stroke trucks. The company also has fielded more than 12,000 consumer complaints, according to Ford's internal warranty data.

Not a minor flaw

This isn't a minor flaw that Ford can dispatch with basic service. The Power Stroke's warranty repair costs are battering Ford's bottom line. In a conference call with Wall Street analysts last March, a company executive acknowledged that Ford's diesel-powered super-duty pickups suffered from quality problems.

Ford has declined to estimate the cost of fixing those defective Power Stroke engines. But Ford has acknowledged that its warranty costs ballooned by $500 million through the first nine months of 2005, compared with the same period a year earlier.

Ford says it is honoring the engine's five-year, 100,000-mile warranty and doing everything it can to repair it. And newer versions of the engine in late 2004- and 2005-model pickups are more reliable.

But the problem will continue to fester. Ford already has sold more than 384,000 diesel trucks with potentially defective engines. And customers like the Schraders appear ready to abandon the brand.

Fixing its diesel problems - in terms of both engine performance and public confidence - is crucial for Ford because the stakes are enormous: Diesels account for about 25 percent of all F-series sales, and the 6.0-liter Power Stroke is a $5,000 option. The engine is offered on medium- and heavy-duty pickups, and had been offered on the discontinued Ford Excursion SUV.

From 225,000 to 250,000 diesel-powered F-series trucks are sold each year, at prices ranging from $30,000 to $50,000-plus.

If Ford can't put things right, the Power Stroke could cause a consumer backlash similar to that of Chrysler's problem-plagued Ultradrive transmission, which alienated minivan owners in the early 1990s.

"If this isn't fixed, and fixed right, and customer satisfaction put back on track, there will be fallout," says Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore. "Ford will lose buyers to Dodge and General Motors."

================================================== =============

Trouble from the start

The 6.0-liter Power Stroke engine has been troublesome from the day it was launched in the fall of 2002. It replaced a somewhat unrefined 7.3-liter diesel.

The powertrain was built by a longtime Ford diesel supplier, International Truck and Engine Corp., of Melrose Park, Ill.

For this version of the engine, International Truck designed a unique high-pressure fuel-injection system.

Most automakers use only electronic controls to operate the fuel injectors in a common-rail system. But the Power Stroke's fuel injectors are operated by a high-pressure oil pump as well as electronics.

According to several of the 150-plus complaints posted on the Web site of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, some trucks never even made it home from the dealership before the fuel injectors or turbocharger failed.

The engine also has been plagued with leaky fuel injectors, oil leaks, broken turbochargers, wiring harness troubles, faulty sensors, defective exhaust gas recirculation valves and bad computers.

Since the engine debuted three years ago, Ford has issued at least 77 technical service bulletins. That is far above average, even for a new engine. These bulletins tell mechanics how to diagnose and fix various problems.

By comparison, there have been eight service bulletins for GM's Duramax diesel V-8 and none for the diesel engine in the Dodge Ram truck. Both engines debuted at about the same time as the Power Stroke.

After just a year on the market, International almost completely redesigned the Power Stroke's fuel system, replacing or redesigning nearly 500 parts. That helped reduce the number of problems, but did not cure the engine of all its ills. Ford has voluntarily recalled the engine at least twice to fix various problems.

The troubles have caused a rift in relations between Ford and International.

The engine can be repaired and made reliable, says International spokesman Bob Carso. Engineers from Ford and International have fixed the problems that plagued the early versions of the engine, he said.

But Carso says the engine is extremely complex and requires "outstanding diagnostic capabilities" to properly identify and repair the faulty parts.

Less help from Ford?

When the Power Stroke's troubles surfaced, Ford tried hard to keep customers happy. In the summer of 2003, Ford took the unusual step of buying back 500 trucks, mostly because of fuel system problems.

But two diesel technicians say Ford has changed the way it deals with the engine problems.

"When they first started out with the 6.0-liter, Ford had a team that was looking over every bit of it and just doing whatever it took to get them fixed," says Mark Ward, a master diesel technician at Landers McLarty Ford in Bentonville, Ark. "And then that just shut off like a light when Ford found out how much losses they were having."

Ward contends Ford is trying to shift more repair costs onto consumers.

"We used to replace turbochargers left and right if the fins had any damage to them," he says. "Now they (Ford) won't accept a turbo back with any fin damage. They are saying if there is any (turbocharger) fin damage whatsoever, it has to be from a dirty air filter. You have to inform the customer that Ford won't pay for that. It's $700, plus the labor."

The fin is the part of the turbocharger that is driven by engine's exhaust system.

"When the 6.0 is running properly, it has much better performance than the 7.3 did," says Charles Ledger, a Ford master technician from Oroville, Calif. "Unfortunately, the 6.0 is plagued with sensor problems." Ledger dispenses advice on his Dieselmann Web site (intellidog.com/dieselmann/home.html).

Ford: No change in policy

Cisco Codina, president of Ford's customer service division, says Ford is not blaming consumers or trying to shift repair costs onto buyers.

"We have not changed any policies whatsoever as it relates to defective material," Codina says. "We don't try to put this blame on the customers. We will spend whatever amount of time and money necessary to help customers who have problems."

Not all of the Power Stroke's defects can be blamed on Ford and International. Consumers may cause problems by installing unauthorized parts that boost engine output. Aftermarket computer chips and exhaust systems can upset the delicate tuning of the engine and cause head gaskets to blow out, Ward says.

Last year Ford and International officials told Automotive News that the Power Stroke's troubles were over. But that turns out to be only partially true.

The engines made today have a better record for reliability, according to NHTSA (see story, above). But those 2003- and early 2004-model engines keep breaking down. And consumers are angry at having to return to the dealership time after time for "reflashes" - new software to be installed in the vehicle's engine computer or other repairs.

Getting better

The number of complaints for 2005 Power Stroke engines has dropped sharply compared with earlier versions since last year's redesign of the engine's fuel system.

But there still are thousands on the road that are not reliable - and may never be. Design deficiencies in some faulty parts, Ward says, have not been addressed.

"If you look at the part number at the new one you are putting on, it's identical to the one you are taking out," notes Ward, the Arkansas technician. "If you start out with something cheap, what do you expect to happen?"

Ward details the engine's troubles and Ford's technical service bulletins on his Web site, flatratetech.com.

The Power Stroke's troubles are reminiscent of Chrysler Corp.'s A-604 automatic transmission - dubbed Ultradrive - that was introduced in Chrysler minivans in 1989. The first versions of the electronically shifted transmission had more problems than a calculus book. Technicians couldn't fix them, consumers were fuming, and Chrysler ended up replacing thousands of transmissions under warranty.

But Codina says Power Stroke has generated more complaints than rival diesels simply because more diesel Fords are on the road.

Says Codina: "We try to address each and every (problem) as we became aware of them. I am sure I am not aware of all of them. But if they (consumers) come to us, we try to do our very best. But today if you have one or two problems, people are not very happy with you."

...

continued

One more chance

As for the Schraders, three days before they were to appear before a Lemon Law arbitration panel in November, Ford offered to buy back their old truck, waive mileage costs and put them in a 2006 model.

After consulting with a lawyer, the Schraders took the deal. The couple left Michigan a few days later for a road trip West. But they are still angry with Ford because they had to spend a year trying to get their truck fixed.

And they will not cut the new truck any slack. If the new truck so much as sputters, James Schrader says he will pull into the nearest Dodge dealership and trade it for a Ram.
p

I used to work at a place that hard pre-2002 Dodge Rams with the Diesel and that was one of the loudest engine I had ever heard in a pickup. I hope the new ones are quieter.

Personally I'd go with a new GM Duramax 6.6L w/ 650ft.-lb. of torque. Mostly because I like GM trucks and the Duramax is the most powerful and fuel efficent.

I used to work at a place that hard pre-2002 Dodge Rams with the Diesel and that was one of the loudest engine I had ever heard in a pickup. I hope the new ones are quieter.

Personally I'd go with a new GM Duramax 6.6L w/ 650ft.-lb. of torque. Mostly because I like GM trucks and the Duramax is the most powerful and fuel efficent.

I only have an anecdotal story.. I drove by this small landscaping place.. and parked out they started out with 2 white chevy's, 2 white fords, and 2 white dodges.. After about 3 years, I notice they were all Chevy's.. Who knows, maybe they just got a killer deal on the the Chevy's..

I notice all the towing trucks are Ford's around my area.. I even talked to one, when I had to get my Camaro towed.. heh.. He loves GM cars, but for trucks, he's a Ford guy..

FYI, it is Cummins, not "cummings". There is no "g" in the word.

Leave me alone, I had just gotten up when I made that post. ;)

After taking some time, the '07 Ram is suppose to be quiter, have a 6.7 Cummins, and have a Aisen 6spd. Some suspect that it will get the upcoming 68re tranny though. Also, there is a redesign for '08. Thats all I could find off Allpar right now.

Looks like Chrysler is looking to one up Toyota and everyone else.

I for one think this is one market that Toyota is going to learn about loyality. I'm looking for their entry to go about as well as Hondas Ridgeline entry did.

The reason people pick the Ford as a work vehicle is because it is cheaper...

Most people will admit the Chevy is better... but its usually $10,000 more..

The reason people pick the Ford as a work vehicle is because it is cheaper...

Most people will admit the Chevy is better... but its usually $10,000 more..

Don't discount Ford's toughness and work capability though... people who drive work trucks (especially ones that don't belong to them) usually beat the pizz out of them. Fords superduty trucks are phenominally well-built.

If ANY product used in industry does not perform well, it will typically be found-out and it will die in short order.

As for a comment about Toyota learning what loyalty is... trust me, they KNOW what it is. People flock by the droves to buy Camry's because their Corolla was flawless, and they never even think about an Impala or Fusion.
They know loyalty, and they know how to break it too.

Ford and GM better JUMP on the offensive, and kick 'em while they are down... keep 'em down, and don't even think of letting them up for air. They turned their back on the cars in the 1980's thinking everyone would be driving SUVs by now, and Toyota took the car market home because of it. Neither Ford or Gm can afford 1 more mistake like that. :no:

here we go.. article about power storke problems
[ref the HUGE artice]



I have been aware of Ford's issues with the new Powerstroke 6.0 from the beginning. I thought it was a mistake to introduce the engine so early after development, and it has turned out to be so. The 6.0 is really a great engine - when everything is right. It is smoother and quieter than the other 2, with the Duramax running a close second and the Cummins 3rd. Trannys are a toss-up between Ford's new units and the Allison units in the GM. Dodge has a TERRIBLE transmission issue, OD falls out frequently.

The fuel delivery system in the new 6.0 (where the article speaks of the oil/electric injector system) is actually not new or specific to this engine. The older (and reliable as hell) 7.3 had the same system. I have posted here before that my 7.3 uses crankcase oil to activate the injectors, and when the oil becomes loaded with soot and starts to break down, the engine runs rougher because injectors begin to act up, not getting full actuation and not providing a full fuel charge. Change the oil and filter, and it smooths right back out. The first thing I learned about maintaining my superduty was that you WILL NOT cheat on oil and filter changes. :no:

Now on the other hand, I have never been in anything that pulls as hard as this truck. Boats, cars, tractors, hay, rocks, you name it - these trucks move loads like nothing else. I average 20mpg in mine over 6 years period. I brought home a King Cobra, extra engine, 2 trannies, and a bed full of parts from Indianapolis IN (total rolling wieght of about 14-15,000 lbs), came throught the Kentucky and Tennessee mountains and down I-40 and it never came out of OVERDRIVE!:eek: With the exception of the steepest grades, I ran between 65 and 80mph, and often set cruise control on 70. I averaged 18+mpg on that round trip of 1300 miles. That's simply unreal. I am a true believer of modern diesel power. :bow:

Looking back on Ford and IH's change from 7.3 to 6.0 units - it was rushed and should not have happened as it did. They wanted quieter, more refined, and even better economy - which is all good, and they got those items, but they did not have all the bugs worked out of the new system before they commercialized it, and they are paying for it now. Shame really. One thing is for sure, they better get it right ASAP and not risk this type of business approach again, because this is exactly the type of crack in the hull that lets Toyota (or others) sneak in and once they are in, you've had it.

Ford's diesel drama drags on: Power Stroke woes anger buyers, drive up warranty costs
RICHARD TRUETT | Automotive News
Posted Date: 12/14/05
James and Penny Schrader have bought Fords faithfully for 30 years.

This article is exagerated. Every engine has its warranty problems.


The fuel delivery system in the new 6.0 (where the article speaks of the oil/electric injector system) is actually not new or specific to this engine. The older (and reliable as hell) 7.3 had the same system.

Not entirely true. There are substantial differences in the 7.3 and 6.0 fuel systems.


Looking back on Ford and IH's change from 7.3 to 6.0 units - it was rushed and should not have happened as it did. They wanted quieter, more refined, and even better economy -

Don't forget better emissions. This has been the biggest driver in diesel development recently and in the near future.


Oh, by the way, it hasn't been IH since the 80's when they sold off the tractor side of the business. Case now owns the name "IH". The parent company is "Navistar", but conducts business as "International Truck and Engine".

Randy

I will find it hard to see Toyota take sales from Ford, since they own most of the market. GM took sales from Dodge with the 6.6 and allision tranny. I don't think Ford lost that much. Ford basically owns the market and there buyers are extremely loyal. I have heard of companies switching trucks just bcuz of the employees they have. I know out here is KC, if its any kind of acutal work truck, it is usually a Ford...especially if it is a desiel.

Just FYI, Ford fell in percentage the same amount GM Grew. Dodge stayed the same. I used to work for D-Max. I got to see sales charts weekly.

Not entirely true. There are substantial differences in the 7.3 and 6.0 fuel systems.
Agreed - I didn't mean to imply they are exactly the same, but after I read your post, I see that that is what I ended up typing anyways.:o
So much for typing while eating breakfast and chatting with a co-worker!




Don't forget better emissions. This has been the biggest driver in diesel development recently and in the near future.

Oh, by the way, it hasn't been IH since the 80's when they sold off the tractor side of the business. Case now owns the name "IH". The parent company is "Navistar", but conducts business as "International Truck and Engine".

Randy
You are correct on all counts. I remember the original 7.3 when Ford started using them in the late 80's. They replaced the old Ford-built 6.9 diesel, which was not a bad engine itself, but it was not turbocharged and it took a mile to get it rolling with a load. I drove an '86 F250SD 4x4 with the 6.9 for several years.

Navistar was showing their backside to Ford for a while in the late 1990s, thinking they had the market locked and making demands on Ford. That was quickly nulled when Isuzu, Cummins, and others came to play, and Chevy announced their Duramax units was coming.

Personally, I think the original diesel designs from the old International Harvester days of tractor-use and large utility trucks were the best groundwork for the early units, and the company was able to ride on those laurels for a long time. New competition has forced them to go back and develop new technology, and through the restructuring, lost talent, and changes, they lost the people who were innovators and experienced. Navistar is still a good company with good potential, but they need to fix their loose ends quickly or they will fall fast.

Just FYI, Ford fell in percentage the same amount GM Grew. Dodge stayed the same. I used to work for D-Max. I got to see sales charts weekly.
I had heard that the GM share was taken from almost all from Dodge.

Nope. Cummins is one hell of a diesel. It's the workhorse of the group. The Duramax is just really super quiet (as far as diesel's go). They're quiet because of the way the injectors spray gas. The injectors create puffs of gas multiple times instead of a squirt.

Nope. Cummins is one hell of a diesel. It's the workhorse of the group. The Duramax is just really super quiet (as far as diesel's go). They're quiet because of the way the injectors spray gas. The injectors create puffs of gas multiple times instead of a squirt.

The current Cummins is just as quiet if not slightly quieter than the Duramax. They both use the same common rail injection system supplied by Bosch. Ford's new 6.4 diesel for 2007 will also finally obtain a common rail injection system of it's own.

The multiple injection event is known as pilot injection. http://www.duramaxdiesel.com/02_bosch/sub03.htm

I believe the now current LBZ Duramax 360HP/650TQ received a revised fuel system that upped the rail pressure and now incorporates multiple pilot events before the main fuel spray. The end result is a yet quieter diesel yet.

The multiple injection event is known as pilot injection. http://www.duramaxdiesel.com/02_bosch/sub03.htm


FYI - you can have multiple injection events without having pilot injection. Pilot injection just means injection prior to the main injection event.

That first article mentioned the success of the Duramax and how it proves that people will buy Japanese in this segment. While it is true that the Duramax was co-developed with Isuzu (a GM-owned division) I don't believe it was widely advertised, and I doubt the majority of buyers even knew this. So I think it's a bit of a stretch to say "if people are willing to buy an HD Silverado with a partially-Japanese developed engine, people will buy an HD Toyota."

Detroit Diesel will not be in the passenger car market anytime soon. My friend is an engineer there....the smallest engine they currently produce is for heavy equipment, luxury boats, etc. Lending their expertise to a new HD truck diesel for Dodge might be an option, but from what I hear DD is making so much money and is so busy right now there probably wouldn't be anyone they could spare on the project.

I've heard about the Powerstroke problems. Ford's really taken a hit on those. GM has done a nice job pumping up the power on the Duramax to further entice disgruntled Ford buyers. I remember when the Dmax was introduced a few years ago, 520 ft/lbs of torque seemed like enough to pull your house off its foundation. What's it up to now, 650? :cool: Bringing in the Alison was a great move too. It's a very highly respected brand that probably won just as many people over as the Dmax itself did.

... but from what I hear DD is making so much money and is so busy right now there probably wouldn't be anyone they could spare on the project.

Wasn't that the division that GM practically gave away because they ran it into the ground and couldn't figure out how to make money with it :think:. That should give us all warm fuzzies about GM's future :(.