What an ugly Camaro concept -- have they seen the Dodge Challenger concept?

For goodness sake, smooth out the lines and give it a more retro look. If not, you'll never compete with the Dodge Challenger or Mustang.

M

Can you be more specific?

Too bad Dodge LOST the best in show award. Or did you miss that?

There was a Dodge unveiled lately?

What part of my post did you not understand? Look at the Camaro concept car and look at the Challenger concept car or the new Mustang. Which one looks like a box that has been stepped on and which ones look like retro muscle cars?

Which one is the 4100+ pound pig? :D

No offense but I just thought I'd let you know that your opinion is in the minority, so in other words, no one cares.

Too bad Dodge LOST the best in show award. Or did you miss that?

Don't care. Dogs win "best in show" all the time.

What part of my post did you not understand? Look at the Camaro concept car and look at the Challenger concept car or the new Mustang. Which one looks like a box that has been stepped on and which ones look like retro muscle cars?
GM folks have plainly stated that the concept wasnt to be full retro like the Mustang. Futuristic heritage. Keep staring at it and tilt your head a little.

Don't care. Dogs win "best in show" all the time.

It takes one to know one. :D

What part of my post did you not understand? Look at the Camaro concept car and look at the Challenger concept car or the new Mustang. Which one looks like a box that has been stepped on and which ones look like retro muscle cars?

Well, can you be at least somewhat specific? What EXACTLY don't you like and why? And what/why do you like the Challenger and Mustang more?

Prove to me you're older than 11.

Your opinion doesn’t make for a very good argument.

You dont like it, we get it. I personally like the new mustang, but dont like the Challenger. Its too smooth, too sleek, and just too big.

Now its okay you dont like it - but realize both are concept cars and will change before production. The challenger will probably get more lines and edges in it before it hits production, the Camaro might get fewer. Who knows.

Also the new camaro isnt meant to look that retro (did you read any of the memos about it?) and again, the Camaro stole the show.

What part of my post did you not understand? Look at the Camaro concept car and look at the Challenger concept car or the new Mustang. Which one looks like a box that has been stepped on and which ones look like retro muscle cars?

Are you kidding? Somewhere I saw a post with pics of the Camaro concept next to a Mustang and IMHO, the Mustang looked boxier. Don't get me wrong, I like the 'stang, and may buy one for right now. However, while the Camaro concept may be 'based' on a previous model or models, it definetely has a 'new' look to it.

No offense but I just thought I'd let you know that your opinion is in the minority, so in other words, no one cares.

People will care when the Camaro fails to catch on with the general public and Chevy cancels it again -- for good. Look at the survey. If Chevy can't get 99% of us saying it's the greatest thing we've ever seen, what will the general public feel about it? We're Camaro fans!

It's not too late though. Chevy can tweak it a bit but they need to be BETTER than the competition. They need something that will turn heads and make people HAVE to have it. My first Camaro, which I still have in my garage, is a '94 Z28. Now that was a real eye catching machine and a good value.

M

People will care when the Camaro fails to catch on with the general public and Chevy cancels it again -- for good. Look at the survey. If Chevy can't get 99% of us saying it's the greatest thing we've ever seen, what will the general public feel about it? We're Camaro fans!

It's not too late though. Chevy can tweak it a bit but they need to be BETTER than the competition. They need something that will turn heads and make people HAVE to have it. My first Camaro, which I still have in my garage, is a '94 Z28. Now that was a real eye catching machine and a good value.

M

Maybe you missed my first post.....:rolleyes:

Your opinion doesn’t make for a very good argument.

You dont like it, we get it. I personally like the new mustang, but dont like the Challenger. Its too smooth, too sleek, and just too big.

Now its okay you dont like it - but realize both are concept cars and will change before production. The challenger will probably get more lines and edges in it before it hits production, the Camaro might get fewer. Who knows.

Also the new camaro isnt meant to look that retro (did you read any of the memos about it?) and again, the Camaro stole the show.

Retro is in -- big mistake not to go retro.

Retro is in -- big mistake not to go retro.

Can you 100% guaranty retro will still be in 5, 10, 15 years from now? Assuming GM oks the Camaro, it will be at least 2008 before we see one, probably as a 2009 Camaro. Will retro still be in then?

Can you 100% guaranty retro will still be in 5, 10, 15 years from now? Assuming GM oks the Camaro, it will be at least 2008 before we see one, probably as a 2009 Camaro. Will retro still be in then?

Ask Barrett Jackson.

where does camaro go after this retro bodystyle?

Your opinion doesn’t make for a very good argument.

Problem is, the opinion of the general public will determine if Camaro is back for good or not. Look at the polls on this forum. Why can't they get 99% of us to say it's the greatest thing we've ever seen?

Ask Barrett Jackson.

Actually, I've been following B-J. The original unrestored musclecars are making the big bucks. The customized musclecars and hotrods aren't selling for what it cost to build them.

What does the unmolested original musclecar market have to do with a modern "retrosyled" musclecar inspired concept car?

You still haven't answered the question though.
Can you guaranty retro will still be in 5, 10, 15 years from now?

Why can't they get 99% of us to say it's the greatest thing we've ever seen?What's the current percentage who like it/don't like it?

Actually, I've been following B-J. The original unrestored musclecars are making the big bucks. The customized musclecars and hotrods aren't selling for what it cost to build them.

What does the unmolested original musclecar market have to do with a modern "retrosyled" musclecar inspired concept car?

You still haven't answered the question though.
Can you guaranty retro will still be in 5, 10, 15 years from now?

I answered the question and you supported my answer in your reply.

Why can't they get 99% of us to say it's the greatest thing we've ever seen?
AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAHHA

I hope this is a joke thread. I really do. Because you have got to be kidding me. You come in here acting like an expert on all things relating to public opinion. Wow, you must have companies gunning for you!! hahahahah.

Do you think the mustang got 99% of people liking it? Or the Challenger? Even among fans of either car? Do you know how many mustang guys hate 05's? I went to a dyno yesterday with ALL mustang guys, and most hated on the 05's. I'm sorry, but you know nothing of how people think, or about the world around you, so if I were you I wouldn't start with something so complex as public reaction/opinion to a new product and how that reflects overall sales. Stick to simple things, like breathing, and chewing gum and walking at the same time. YOU do that, then I'll be impressed.

I hate to single people out like this, but this is just too funny. Surprisingly, in saying this, I'm not defending either of the 3 cars discussed in this thread.

I answered the question and you supported my answer in your reply.

Didn't you also make another thread saying the Camaro should be more modern like the Ford GT? Seems that you can't make up your own mind.

What's the current percentage who like it/don't like it?

Almost 65% give it a 9 or 10. About 84% give it an 8 or better. Given that we're Camaro fans and we're dying for a new Camaro, I don't see that as a positive thing.

Out of thousands of people registered on this site, only 550 have voted, and you think that that's a realistic figure?

84% just goes to show that there are a few idiots on this website. ;)

AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAHHA

I hope this is a joke thread. I really do. Because you have got to be kidding me. You come in here acting like an expert on all things relating to public opinion. Wow, you must have companies gunning for you!! hahahahah.

Do you think the mustang got 99% of people liking it? Or the Challenger? Even among fans of either car? Do you know how many mustang guys hate 05's? I went to a dyno yesterday with ALL mustang guys, and most hated on the 05's. I'm sorry, but you know nothing of how people think, or about the world around you, so if I were you I wouldn't start with something so complex as public reaction/opinion to a new product and how that reflects overall sales. Stick to simple things, like breathing, and chewing gum and walking at the same time. YOU do that, then I'll be impressed.

I hate to single people out like this, but this is just too funny. Surprisingly, in saying this, I'm not defending either of the 3 cars discussed in this thread.

Let me ask you this -- do you think there's something wrong when less than 65% of the Camaro fans that post here give it a 9 or 10? Think about it -- Camaro is gone and we want it back, desperately. They could put wheels on a box and get 65% saying it's a 9 or 10. And that's what they've done... Why does this concern me so? Because if they cancel Camaro again, because or poor sales, it won't be back. Will the general public buy this Camaro over the Mustang or Challenger? I fear not.

M

The general public buys Hondas and Toyotas, so I don't think they'll be buying Mustang or Challenger either.

65% of 556? wow....look at how many members we have, 56,606. Some have 0 post counts, but can still vote and haven't.

So...let me get this straight.....the Challenger and Shelby Mustang have gotten (in comparsion) no coverage next to the Camaro Concept....and thats because it's not gonna appeal to the masses?

So mh12345 which is it? Complete retro or exotic look. You are an idiot. They went away from restoring a car to actually builing a car unlike Ford and Dodge. It looks similar to a 69 Camaro yet also is very modern. Tell me what retro car has lasted a long time with great sales. Prowler got axed, Beetle can't be have its shape changed much. Yea they sold like crazy for 2-3 years but now they have troubles giving them away. PT Cruiser has the same problem as the Beetle. We will see about the FJ Cruiser, Mustang, and HHR soon.

Problem is, the opinion of the general public will determine if Camaro is back for good or not. Look at the polls on this forum. Why can't they get 99% of us to say it's the greatest thing we've ever seen?

wow that's a dumb statement.. people on this site are still people, they have their own opinions, and they arent all the same opinion. you can't expect that just because everyone here is a camaro fan, they will all love it even if it's a box on wheels.. not everyone is a kool-aid drinker..

i'd say that 65% 9 or above, 85% 8 or above is VERY good.. and means the concept has been VERY well recieved by a huge majority of what is a very small sampling.. which is only of people who care enough to vote

Problem is, the opinion of the general public will determine if Camaro is back for good or not. Look at the polls on this forum. Why can't they get 99% of us to say it's the greatest thing we've ever seen?


Please tell me what concept car of the past had a 99% approval rating…..ever….

Ummm just because this is a Camaro site does not mean that everyone is going to like it. If you knew anything about Camaroz28.com you would know that its most likely going to be the opposite. Many people on this site know everything there is to know about these cars and are inclined to pick at every problem because we have been waiting for this car for long that we wanted it to be perfect. As said before, do you know how many Mustang enthusiasts hate the 05'? Even on this site there are people who will not give it above a 8/10 but thats doesn't mean they hate it.

One word.....hordes;)

One word.....hordes;)

:D :thumb:

no kidding

mh12345, you have a right to your opinions, even if the majority of us don't agree with them. With that said, why would you come on a Camaro Enthusiast website and try to force your opinions on the rest of the people here?

You're free to say if you want the Camaro to be made from cheese, or you want the Camaro to be made from recycled aluminum cans or whatever. Just make sure you voice your opinion to the RIGHT people (Chevy HQ).

Most of the people on this site will only ridicule you for your opinions and the majority of us aren't involved in the production or pre-production stages of the next generation Camaro. In other words, we can not voice your opinion for you or get your opinion where it needs to be.

I suggest you pick up whatever dignity you might have left and enjoy the forums like the rest of us.

The Camaro is the FAR more aggressive design. It is a classic beauty and will give the Mustang a fit, and I believe, will blow away the Challenger, even though I like it as well. In fact, I think DMC might even think twice about going through with production plans given how much the Camaro overshadowed it at the NAIAS. Camaro will also be the highest performance car, wait and see. Lighter than the Challenger and stronger than the Mustang. CHANGE THE CONCEPT NONE!

About this total retro thing. The mustang and challanger are 100% retro, meaning they look pretty close to the originals, the camaro has some retro in it (less if the interior is modernized) but also has totaly fresh body lines and proportions to it. When the time comes for Ford and dodge to update the mustange and challenger with new body styles, where do they go? Will ford come out with a new "Retro styled mustang II King Cobra Super Shelby" and dodge "new retro version of the 84 charger with 2.6 hemi"? Gm will not have that problem with the 6th gen f-body as the 5th gen is not a carbon copy of the original.

just some food for thought

All i can say is "Who do i give my down payment to for a full option v8 car with 6 speed!"

I can't believe I actually read this thread.

The Challenger aged 35 years when the Camaro concept was shwon

Let me ask you this -- do you think there's something wrong when less than 65% of the Camaro fans that post here give it a 9 or 10? Think about it -- Camaro is gone and we want it back, desperately. They could put wheels on a box and get 65% saying it's a 9 or 10. And that's what they've done... Why does this concern me so? Because if they cancel Camaro again, because or poor sales, it won't be back. Will the general public buy this Camaro over the Mustang or Challenger? I fear not.

M
maybe there are some fans that don't like the concept but in the same way there are lots and of people(non camaro fans) that love it. i love the car i think that God itself designed. the designers didn't want to please just the camaro fans,but the general public, its imposible to make a car that will satisfy everyone ,there will be always someone just like you that have a complaint about something. i think that you opened this thread for a very crappy reason. this is very simple if you like the car go and buy it if not get big fat challenger or the rustang or even a honda if you like

If you want the Mustang just go buy it! Nobody here will have any problem with that. Just post your OPINIONS on the Chevy website and move along and let the big dogs play! In 2 years when you pull up to a stop light in your RETRO Rustang and look to your left and see a Gorgeous Black 2008/9 Z28 with 400+ under the hood....just don't rev your engine!

Hmmm, on a scale of 1-10 I though an 8 was near perfect! Regardless, I will be buying one and my 94 Z28 will go into Retirement!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Sonic5395/118_1842.jpg

This guy just stuck his head in a hornet's nest :rolleyes: .

David

Please tell me what concept car of the past had a 99% approval rating…..ever….

BULLSEYE!

Yeah no one likes the styling of the concept.:rolleyes:

http://www.camaroz28.com/buildtheconcept/list.shtml

People will care when the Camaro fails to catch on with the general public and Chevy cancels it again -- for good. Look at the survey. If Chevy can't get 99% of us saying it's the greatest thing we've ever seen, what will the general public feel about it? We're Camaro fans!

It's not too late though. Chevy can tweak it a bit but they need to be BETTER than the competition. They need something that will turn heads and make people HAVE to have it. My first Camaro, which I still have in my garage, is a '94 Z28. Now that was a real eye catching machine and a good value.

M

LOL! You're killing me. Stop it please !!!

I voted 8 but said many times what would make it a 9 or 10. 8 is really high in my book btw. 10 is near unataingable. (though I have seen some nice 69 10's) This thread just sounds like bashing to me. Theres no your wrong and heres why. Its just youre wrong youre wrong youre wrong...

the challenger is sooooo much better than the new camaro, the front end on the camaro looks like total crap. challenger all the way baby

......Ignore it.

mh12345, you have a right to your opinions, even if the majority of us don't agree with them. With that said, why would you come on a Camaro Enthusiast website and try to force your opinions on the rest of the people here?

You're free to say if you want the Camaro to be made from cheese, or you want the Camaro to be made from recycled aluminum cans or whatever. Just make sure you voice your opinion to the RIGHT people (Chevy HQ).

Most of the people on this site will only ridicule you for your opinions and the majority of us aren't involved in the production or pre-production stages of the next generation Camaro. In other words, we can not voice your opinion for you or get your opinion where it needs to be.

I suggest you pick up whatever dignity you might have left and enjoy the forums like the rest of us.

I don't mind when someone ridicules and calls names. It's a good indicator of someones true feelings about something. The closer to home you hit, the more ridicule you receive. The truth of the matter is -- this car is ugly, which is no doubt subjective but I think Chevy can do better. They need to do better. They need something totally differnent (ala Ford GT or their 4th Gen Camaro) or something retro (ala Challenger concept, Mustang, PT Cruiser, Mini, etc.). If they do none of these things, they need to smooth out the sharp angles. If they go to market the with the concept car's look, we may be seeing the last generation Camaro ever because if the general public rejects it, it won't last. We'll all buy one but that won't be enough.

Mark

If you want the Mustang just go buy it! Nobody here will have any problem with that. Just post your OPINIONS on the Chevy website and move along and let the big dogs play! In 2 years when you pull up to a stop light in your RETRO Rustang and look to your left and see a Gorgeous Black 2008/9 Z28 with 400+ under the hood....just don't rev your engine!

Hmmm, on a scale of 1-10 I though an 8 was near perfect! Regardless, I will be buying one and my 94 Z28 will go into Retirement!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/Sonic5395/118_1842.jpg

Buy a Mustang? I doubt I could ever bring myself to do such a thing.

I don't mind when someone ridicules and calls names. It's a good indicator of someones true feelings about something. The closer to home you hit, the more ridicule you receive. The truth of the matter is -- this car is ugly, which is no doubt subjective but I think Chevy can do better. They need to do better. They need something totally differnent (ala Ford GT or their 4th Gen Camaro) or something retro (ala Challenger concept, Mustang, PT Cruiser, Mini, etc.). If they do none of these things, they need to smooth out the sharp angles. If they go to market the with the concept car's look, we may be seeing the last generation Camaro ever because if the general public rejects it, it won't last. We'll all buy one but that won't be enough.

Mark

Wont ignore this one....for one the Challenger with easily be outsold by the Camaro and I will put any amount of money on that. It is in a segment were I do not think it will be able to compete. You say they need something totally different like the Ford GT? I think your taste in cars is rediculous, the 4th gen Camaro was bland compared to other generations and its lack of sales led to production ceasing yet you think the 5th gen should be like it? Your statements contradict eachother. You say its needs to be totally different or totally retro so where are you saying it stands now?

Let me ask you this -- do you think there's something wrong when less than 65% of the Camaro fans that post here give it a 9 or 10? Think about it -- Camaro is gone and we want it back, desperately. They could put wheels on a box and get 65% saying it's a 9 or 10. And that's what they've done... Why does this concern me so? Because if they cancel Camaro again, because or poor sales, it won't be back. Will the general public buy this Camaro over the Mustang or Challenger? I fear not.

M

Diognes56 is right. You have stuck your head in a hornet's nest. Your point doesn't hold water for a number of reasons.

First, there are basically 2 Camaro fans: The "traditionalists" who love the 1st gen, and the "modernists" who love the 4th gen. In between you have the 2nd and 3rd gen which though has a smaller following, are yet another interpritation of Camaro, and has strong fans. To say that a new Camaro should get 95% or even 65% of enthusiasts thinking it's the best Camaro design ever is completely unrealistic, and that's being polite.

Second, Even though I like good design, retro or not, Camaro has always been about progressive design... moving forward. Although I've owned 3 4th gens, I realize the public didn't like them and GM needed to move a different way. IMO the new 5th gen design nails everything Camaro has historically been about. The design is progressive, yet at the same time pays homage to it's heritage. It's not trying to look like a Corvette, but it takes traditional cues and moves it into the future. GM design did an excellent job walking a fine line.

Third, you obviously haven't seen the car in person, and overheard the comments made about the car. It is stunning in person, and it get's people talking... in positive ways... about the car. The feedback on the car is incredible, and love the design or not, only a fool would even think the car won't do extremely well in the market.

Fourth, that dog winning best in show comment is pretty sad and weak. If a car steals an auto show like Detroit, taking it lightly is just plain silly.

Fifth, we have the same grasp on Camaro's predicament. This car HAS to sell, or the car will be dead in a matter of years. However, it doesn't have to be retro to do it. I think the Mustang isn't retro because if you were to teleport it back to the 60s or 70s, it would stand out like a sore thumb. It's a modern interpretation of all Mustang's DNA over the years. The Challenger on the other hand, save the wheel & tire size, would be perfectly at home in 1975 as a redesigned Challenger, and is probally the poster child of "retro". But the thing that's going to make these things a success is that they stand out from all the jelly-bean, aerodramatic designs that's on every car today. Mustang doesn't look like anything other than a Mustang, and the stand up grille, the shape, even the rear side windows look like nothing else on the road. Challengers are so rare today, that the new one is going to get lots of attention driving down the highway. The new Camaro is likely to cause crashes from rubber neckers. If it's brought in at 20K, it's CERTAINLY going to sell.

Finally, only a complete dummy would bring in Barrett-Jackson as a measurement as to what would sell today. Anyone who REALLY takes the time to look at it will realize that the high prices at auctions are because the vehicles are R-A-R-E !!! 70s Challengers get such high prices at auctions because:

1. They were rust buckets, and very few survive today as a percentage made.
2. Hemi engines were even more rare. Hemis were always rare engines in production Chryslers, and you could probally count the number that was put in Challengers because the car came out after the insurence industry declaired war on high performance cars. Enemy number 1? Hemi engines.
3. Challengers were pretty low volume cars to begin with after the 1st year or so.

You'll see high but not outreagous prices on Cuda 340s, because they were comparatively commonplace. You won't see many 318 Challengers (despite this being the way the majority were sold) because the who is going to spend alot of money reconditioning a car that isn't worth it?

The prices at Barrett-Jackson have nothing to do with design. It's all about rareity.

Buy a Mustang? I doubt I could ever bring myself to do such a thing.

Why dont you try starting with what you would change and what you would perfer where.

Ok nothing on this planet is perfect...but this car is clearly a cargasm. I mean the fact the Camaro is coming back amazes me, I'm glad that my generation will not have to grow up in a world without the iconic American muscle car. I've looked at several concepts and renderings, and sure there are tiny things i like about each. Overall the car has styling ques from the past yet brings the future to the present, and i like that. As for me I'm only 17 and I garuntee you I will buy one the day they roll out of the factory if it means puting myself in debt for 10 years. I'd love to own a peice of art like that!

like i said before if you dont like the car just don't buy it ITS VERY SIMPLE, we already heard your opinion and the truth is, like it or not, that you can't do anything to change the concept, unless you try to get a job at GM as a designer. I saw a lots of people saying the same things as you about the corvette and some of that people ended buying it.

Please tell me what concept car of the past had a 99% approval rating…..ever….

mh12345

arent you going to answer my question?

Why dont you try starting with what you would change and what you would perfer where.

I did in my initial post. They need to at least smooth out the sharp angles. That's what bugs me most. I really like the retro look of the Challenger, as I also stated. They'll need to complete with that and the Mustang, which looks good but I doubt I could bring myself to buy one. No complaints under the hood.

M

I did in my initial post. They need to at least smooth out the sharp angles. That's what bugs me most. I really like the retro look of the Challenger, as I also stated. They'll need to complete with that and the Mustang, which looks good but I doubt I could bring myself to buy one. No complaints under the hood.

M

The "retro look" of the Challenger? You mean the 99% copied "look" of the Challenger.

mh12345

arent you going to answer my question?

My point is this: if they can't completely sell us on the new Camaro, how can they sell the general public on it? Remember the first time you saw a 4th Gen? I had to have one. I bought one in the second year. Still have it, though it's not my daily driver. It's a weekend cruiser now. I will never sell it. I want Chevy to do that to me and everyone else again. The concept doesn't do that. The Challenger does. By the way, Dodge really missed the boat on the Charger (4 doors?). Another miss: the GTO (makes the 5th Gen Camaro look great!). I do not want Camaro to be another famous miss because it could be fatal to the historic name.

M

mh12345

arent you going to answer my question?
He dodged all my number questions/statements too. Classic, he can't answer them, so he ignores the questions, pathetic.

The only reason you are being ridiculed by everyone, is because you are stating your opinions as facts, and anything else you state as a fact, you do not back up...with anything.

I did in my initial post. They need to at least smooth out the sharp angles. That's what bugs me most. I really like the retro look of the Challenger, as I also stated. They'll need to complete with that and the Mustang, which looks good but I doubt I could bring myself to buy one. No complaints under the hood.

M


If you don't like it, fair enough. No one will force you to buy it. As for the ratings the car gets on this board... You do realize this board is the MINORITY of Camaro & Firebird owners right? The majority of owners have V6 cars, don't care about this board, and couldn't give a crap about much more than the outside appearance of the car. If GM gets this buyer on board, THEY will guarentee the new Camaro is a success.

Also, to follow up on the comment about those that didn't like the C6 that bought one... I bought a LS1 Camaro and still think the nose could use some work. I wouldn't say I am 100% happy with GM's design, but I guess I liked it enough to buy one :thumb:

My point is this: if they can't completely sell us on the new Camaro, how can they sell the general public on it? Remember the first time you saw a 4th Gen? I had to have one. I bought one in the second year. Still have it, though it's not my daily driver. It's a weekend cruiser now. I will never sell it. I want Chevy to do that to me and everyone else again. The concept doesn't do that. The Challenger does. By the way, Dodge really missed the boat on the Charger (4 doors?). Another miss: the GTO (makes the 5th Gen Camaro look great!). I do not want Camaro to be another famous miss because it could be fatal to the historic name.

M

While I disagree with your opinion on the 5th gen, I still respect it.

That said…

Your opinion does not answer my question. And it really doesn’t have to because I already know the answer.

Some of the best car designs and concepts are the ones that totally divide the enthusiast and public. You either absolutely love it or hate it. These designs get people to talk about them and end up being the most successful.

The last Mustang Concept a few years ago is a perfecet example.

If you don’t like it…..well that’s ok…as long as you constructively critique it and use more than opinion to back up…well …ummm…your opinion…..
Past that, I honestly would not be worried about the Camaro nameplate or the offerings over a dodge.

Retro is a fad that will be dead with in less than a decade….

I’d really like to see how Dodge evolves its Challenger then…

My point is this: if they can't completely sell us on the new Camaro, how can they sell the general public on it? Remember the first time you saw a 4th Gen? I had to have one. I bought one in the second year. Still have it, though it's not my daily driver. It's a weekend cruiser now. I will never sell it. I want Chevy to do that to me and everyone else again. The concept doesn't do that. The Challenger does. By the way, Dodge really missed the boat on the Charger (4 doors?). Another miss: the GTO (makes the 5th Gen Camaro look great!). I do not want Camaro to be another famous miss because it could be fatal to the historic name.

M
So because you liked the 4th gen when it came out, that meant everyone did? And the same goes for the 5th? If you can't adress the numbers issue I stated (only a fraction of the people here have voted), it's a waste of time even mentioning numbers unless you bring up another poll

Almost 65% give it a 9 or 10. About 84% give it an 8 or better. Given that we're Camaro fans and we're dying for a new Camaro, I don't see that as a positive thing.

I think you'd find similar numbers for the 4thgen when it was announced and new, and similar numbers for enthusiasts about the new Mustang. Perhaps even worse numbers. Alot of people didn't like those cars, alot did. You seem to be crazy about them (the 4thgens), and the Camaro ended up dying while they were at the helm. I think it's definitely the right move to go in a somewhat different direction with the new car.

Whatever the "new" design you'll have fans of the previous generation of car who slam and bash the new one for months/years. The most vocal haters on this new one seem to be 4thgen owners who wanted another misproportioned jet of a car, or the occasional 1stgen fan who is mad it's isn't closer to a '69... But I would be willing to bet most will warm up to this new cars attributes.

My opinion is it's a beautiful car, honestly I would be very surprised if most of the people complaining about it don't change their tune pretty quickly when they hit the streets. And I think if it's affordable it will sell quite well. I mean it's got the stuff to be hot, classic lines yet modern design, and proportions that are perfect for a modern pony car.



In the end if you listen to Mr Settlemire, someone clearly in a position to know, this concept has been one of the best received new designs in recent times. That would seem to make your whole point completely off...

I saw the Camaro and Challenger in Detroit . Everybody has their own opinion and mine is the Challenger back end looks terrible. The Camaro looked good from every angle.
Dan

What part of my post did you not understand? Look at the Camaro concept car and look at the Challenger concept car or the new Mustang. Which one looks like a box that has been stepped on and which ones look like retro muscle cars?

Maybe they were thinking outside the box, like the others should instead of making nearly exact replicas of the older cars.

If I wanted a '70 Challenger I'd go and buy a resto. If I wanted a 60's Mustang, then I'd buy a resto.

I want a car with muscle car styling cues, but a new, edgier looks.

The challenger from the side looks like the old classic. As for the front meh...its ok but the rear is just ugly I cant stand it. Dodge wont get far with it imo. Sure its gona have some good hp ratings from what Dodge says but GM hasnt said anything on the Camaro's possible engine specs and what not. Chevy made a good move with this new Camaro gave it a classic look but at the same time it looks like a brand new car something people will want to buy.

What part of my post did you not understand? Look at the Camaro concept car and look at the Challenger concept car or the new Mustang. Which one looks like a box that has been stepped on and which ones look like retro muscle cars?
I'm not even going to waste my time reading anything in this thread, or read any follow-up posts, so flaming me will be a waste of your time (as your original post was) -the original/first post and this post above demonstrates his level of maturity. Nice job pointing out the obvious in saying that it doesn't look like retro muscle cars though, since it wasn't designed to. You're reaction after the first few posts with a comment like this is uncalled for. You can't expect to make a post like this without any support and a post count of 25 and expect to receive any respect or have anyone jump on board with your opinion.

This thread has a 99% approval rating. Case closed.

I did in my initial post. They need to at least smooth out the sharp angles. That's what bugs me most. I really like the retro look of the Challenger, as I also stated. They'll need to complete with that and the Mustang, which looks good but I doubt I could bring myself to buy one. No complaints under the hood.

M

The Challenger is going to be more of a niche product anyway. From the rumors floating around, it'll be a V8-only model around $35K. That's a far cry from the mission of the Camaro and its full lineup. It's like saying the limited production Viper is hurting Corvette. I'd wager you're not too impressed with the successful C6 Corvette either, with its sharp lines and post-1969 styling mixed in with heritage cues.

The Camaro concept as it is (and I've seen it in person btw) has plenty of overt retro cues along its modern, angular lines and muscular stance; the car screams "Camaro" and will have no trouble appealing to the masses according to public reaction. As others have already stated, the Challenger looks 30 years older in comparison. It'll be neat to see the Dodge on the road, just as its neat to see the Mustangs, but I feel GM really took the right approach and hit one out of the park when they had to.

Btw, I'm not sure how much of a reader you are in this forum, but the folks on here are pretty informed and aren't going to listen to tales of doom for their beloved Camaro-in-waiting without some semblance of fact in the reasoning.

Another miss: the GTO (makes the 5th Gen Camaro look great!).
Question. Have you driven a GTO? While there are many that hate the design because it isn't retro enough; the GTO is as much fun to drive as a late model Camaro or Mustang. About the only new car I enjoyed driving more than the GTO is the C6.

I fear the ghost of Buickman has come back to haunt us gents.

I keep waiting for this guy to give us his "plan" for saving the 5th gen from certain doom :D

mh12345, as everyone else has stated, your argument holds no water. You keep on harping about how the public will not like it and it will not sell and its going to be a catastrophe.

Guess what? Have you seen the videos and webcasts of the NAIAS? Camaro won Best in Show and was a huge hit. AKA the public LOVES IT. So much for that argument.

Next, it wont sell. Well, lets see, we have the public's attention and they love the car and want to know when its going to be built. Lutz has said the V6 model is going to be close to $20k starting price and the v8 $30k. That same strategy has sold Ford 180,000 Mustangs. Sounds like a winner to me.

If you do not like the concept, leave it at that, you're allowed to your own opinions of the car. You obviously are in love with the 4th gen and are disappointed it did not follow the 4th gens styling direction. I love my 4th gen as well, but like Guy said, the 4th gen wasn't working and the Camaro needed to deviate from that path and it seems to have worked very well.

But using your dislike for the concept as a basis of your "Its Going to Fail" theory :no: :no:

Ok guys.. After reading all this nonsense about the new Camaro will sell, it won't sell, the general public has to like it, blah, blah, blah.

Here is what I did. Everyone here at work knows I'm a car guy. I printed out 3 pictures, The Challenger, Camaro Concept and Mustang. I went around randomly in my office here and asked 20 people if they had a choice to buy either of these cars based on looks alone which one would they buy. The result are here, unscientific but interesting. I tried to get a even mix of men and woman and ages varied.

Take this FWIW.

Out of 20 people asked. the results are as follows.

9 - Challenger
6 - Mustang
5 - Camaro

Here is what I did. Everyone here at work knows I'm a car guy. I printed out 3 pictures, The Challenger, Camaro Concept and Mustang. I went around randomly in my office here and asked 20 people if they had a choice to buy either of these cars based on looks alone which one would they buy. The result are here, unscientific but interesting. I tried to get a even mix of men and woman and ages varied.

Take this FWIW.

That is interesting...judging by picture alone leaves out a lot though. If you had included pricing, performance, and other info it may have been different.

Maybe, The people I polled at my office are far from car people. I don't think they really would care to much about the performance of these car since they all look like they obviously kick some ass on the road. As we know looks are subjective, but it does tell me that the Camaro has to make a few changes before it goes into production. The one thing that really stood out was that most said they didn't like the Camaro because of the frontend, which echos what everyone here has been saying.

Those that picked the Challenger said that is just looked powerful and they like how the lines were smooth flowing as compared to the Camaro.

I just though it was interesting.

I can't believe I actually read this thread.

i am going to stop reading NOW... most pointless thread ever
:rolleyes:

Why is pointless?

i am going to stop reading NOW... most pointless thread ever
:rolleyes:

It's finally getting a little interesting, actually. :)

Ok guys.. After reading all this nonsense about the new Camaro will sell, it won't sell, the general public has to like it, blah, blah, blah.

Here is what I did. Everyone here at work knows I'm a car guy. I printed out 3 pictures, The Challenger, Camaro Concept and Mustang. I went around randomly in my office here and asked 20 people if they had a choice to buy either of these cars based on looks alone which one would they buy. The result are here, unscientific but interesting. I tried to get a even mix of men and woman and ages varied.

Take this FWIW.

Out of 20 people asked. the results are as follows.

9 - Challenger
6 - Mustang
5 - Camaro

That's intresting, and bodes well for the Challenger if Chrysler makes it a GTO level, low/no options $30K car. It shows the car is highly desirable, and therefore likely to sell at levels the GTO was supposed to sell at.

But what's also intresting given that Mustang & Camaro will sell at the same price is that the split is close between the two. Considering that the Mustang outsold the 4th gen Camaro by roughly a 4 to 1 margin (and f-bodies combined by nearly 3 to 1) seems Camaro at a 6 to 5 disadvantage is on the right track.

I also think Camaro's 3 box design would likely pull most of the people who would buy a Challenger if it were price competitive on the low end.

Could be in for the closest Camaro-Mustang sales competition since the 1980s. :D

Retro is the equivalent to lusting after a porn star....looks like fun for a short while, but then you remember that you have to live with her and that beautiful girl next door looks a whole lot like who you'd rather be with for the long haul.

Doesn't surprise me that in today's instant gratification society, that some would choose the "safe" choice of the Challenger in some straw poll....but will they spend their hard earned $$ for something that will look 35 years old in a few months?

The new Camaro will look fresh for a long time to come...it has "reach" as the designers like to say....the Challenger is just a quickie (in more ways than one).

Retro is the equivalent to lusting after a porn star....looks like fun for a short while, but then you remember that you have to live with her and that beautiful girl next door looks a whole lot like who you'd rather be with for the long haul.

Doesn't surprise me that in today's instant gratification society, that some would choose the "safe" choice of the Challenger in some straw poll....but will they spend their hard earned $$ for something that will look 35 years old in a few months?

The new Camaro will look fresh for a long time to come...it has "reach" as the designers like to say....the Challenger is just a quickie (in more ways than one).

Very well put doug and 2 years from now we will really see whats what

I think Chevy is on the right track with the Camaro. Remember it is still only a concept. That being said I was at the Auto show on Friday and looked at both the Challanger and Camaro concept. There was a hot chic talking about the Challenger so I went up to the ropes and "listened" to what she was saying. Next I went to the camaro display were a man was giving the demonstration. I couldn't even get close to seeing the car there were so many people around it. The Camaro overcame the lack of a hot chick showing it and had the biggest crowd I saw while I was there.

I fear the ghost of Buickman has come back to haunt us gents.
Just what I was thinking.

I thought even "public" schools taught children how to form basic arguments. Please, oh please answer the questions directed to you MH128578641651618 or stop wasting peoples' time. Your comments are about as vague as can be. What lines are you talking about? Smoothe them out? They are smoothe. Almost every corner on the car is rounded. No one is saying your views are wrong or inaccurate. Your whole attitude in this thread is just wrong. There is no validity to your argument whatsoever.

How can we go completely different ala Ford GT or blah blah??? You are saying be different like someone else? Did you buy a Starter jacket?

I am not crazy about the nose on the new one. But the ass is perfect, and considering the Mustang and the "Hemi" (haha, new Hemi) will only be seeing the ass of this car, thats all that matters.

The Camaro has been for a long time the baby brother of the Vette. Look at how GM has overrated and overpriced the Vette for so many years, while offering the same package in a different shell, minus a few options, for less than half the price. The same designer that worked on the C6 did the concept for the Camaro. Look at that ass and tell me where it came from. I don't see 69..... I see Vette.

Watch the videos. A single picture can't give a car justice.

I love the earlier 4th gens, but hated the remdesign on the ls1 Camaros. So where would I put my vote if we were doing 4th gens? The 4th gens are the closest thing to a stepchild the Camaro has ever had.

Almost 65% give it a 9 or 10. About 84% give it an 8 or better. Given that we're Camaro fans and we're dying for a new Camaro, I don't see that as a positive thing.

If you are talking about my survey (http://ls1lt1.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2519), I think your analysis is way off.

If you've been around here at all, which is obviously not the case, you'd know that to get Camaro enthusiasts to agree on anything is a miracle.

The fact that 81% of respondents gave the car an 8 out of 10 or better and 58% a 9 or 10 is OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE response to the car.

You are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps its not so wise to ASSume that you speak for everyone else, or anyone else for that matter.

My point is this: if they can't completely sell us on the new Camaro, how can they sell the general public on it? Remember the first time you saw a 4th Gen? I had to have one.

You see my man, this right here is your problem. You are basing your whole argument on YOUR desires, YOUR opinions and YOUR tastes. Is it quite possible the general public doesn't agree with you? The 4th Gen?

I want Chevy to do that to me and everyone else again. The concept doesn't do that.

Now I love the 4th Gen, I've had 2 myself, but it was the 4th Gen that didn't "wow" enough people, especially after the first 2 or 3 years as sales slid. Again, you speak as if your word is Camaro law.

The reason 99% of the people on this site may not care for the concept is because enthusiasts have an extremely narrow, specific, and unique view of what the Camaro should look like. It is the same anywhere....there's no way, to this day, 99% of the members at Stangnet like the new Mustang....but that hasn't done anything to hinder its sales...the key is to maximize the reach of a design, appealing to the most enthusiasts you can as well as the general public. Designing Camrys and Accords is cake....no one is passionate about what they look like.

Many people from Chevy have already said the Camaro concept is a bigger hit than the C6 Corvette. Now that's a statement.

We can't ALL love the Camaro. What would it spank on the roads if everyone drove a Camaro. So Challenger guy, I'll see you at the red light. I'll smoke that pork.

i dont know if u guys understand the word "concept". you guys are saying that the challenger is too heavy and big (which i agree with) and it probably will be smaller. you guys are debating like they are both already out. now as i said in my earlier post in this thread i do like the challenger alot more but the camaro is still cool and all but the front end dont look good imo. there is no way that these will be the exact production cars when and IF they both come out cuz that isnt a gaurentee either. either will be sweet when they come out but i do like the challenger alot more (im a huge chrysler fan btw, and i dont like gm other than the muscle cars).

i dont know if u guys understand the word "concept". you guys are saying that the challenger is too heavy and big (which i agree with) and it probably will be smaller.

Wouldnt it be funny if Dodge was lieing about Challenger weight? I dont think they are, but that would be sneaky...

i dont know if u guys understand the word "concept". you guys are saying that the challenger is too heavy and big (which i agree with) and it probably will be smaller.

While I understand your point, realize that the Challenger "concept" looked complete enough to be a pre-production model. I wouldn't bet the farm that the Challenger will be considerably smaller, or much different than what we saw at NAIAS.

So because you liked the 4th gen when it came out, that meant everyone did? And the same goes for the 5th? If you can't adress the numbers issue I stated (only a fraction of the people here have voted), it's a waste of time even mentioning numbers unless you bring up another poll

The poll is a representative sample, as are all polls. It may be skewed but I imagine it would be skewed toward the most diehard fans of the Camaro name. So if the most diehard fans are only 80% on board with the new concept, I'd call that a problem. The average Camaro owner probably won't be as ethusiastic. You following my logic or am I typing too fast?

M

i dont know if u guys understand the word "concept". you guys are saying that the challenger is too heavy and big (which i agree with) and it probably will be smaller. you guys are debating like they are both already out. now as i said in my earlier post in this thread i do like the challenger alot more but the camaro is still cool and all but the front end dont look good imo. there is no way that these will be the exact production cars when and IF they both come out cuz that isnt a gaurentee either. either will be sweet when they come out but i do like the challenger alot more (im a huge chrysler fan btw, and i dont like gm other than the muscle cars).
the word "concept" applies to the Challenger the same as the word "production" applies to the Camaro concept. in other words they don't (or they do in reverse). its no secret Challenger is on a functional production platform already modified for it. the functional bits are pretty much WYSIWYG. meaning that if it comes out with a small styling change here and there the weight WILL NOT be effected.

as mentioned before, this board is full of people well informed (who keep the rest of us posted) and people who don't easily sway to those that purport to "know" what they are talking about when they really don't.

if you have an opinion, state it; if you have information, pass it on. but check your swag or be prepared to have it checked for you.

:rolleyes:

I saw the Camaro and Challenger in Detroit . Everybody has their own opinion and mine is the Challenger back end looks terrible. The Camaro looked good from every angle.
Dan

I agree with your Challenger back end comment.

The challenger from the side looks like the old classic. As for the front meh...its ok but the rear is just ugly I cant stand it. Dodge wont get far with it imo. Sure its gona have some good hp ratings from what Dodge says but GM hasnt said anything on the Camaro's possible engine specs and what not. Chevy made a good move with this new Camaro gave it a classic look but at the same time it looks like a brand new car something people will want to buy.

Dodge is talking about offering the Viper engine in the Challenger as well as the Hemi. Look out.

M

Dodge is talking about offering the Viper engine in the Challenger as well as the Hemi. Look out.

M
Where are they "talking" about this? Because the buzz around here was just the opposite of what you were saying. In other words there's a version of "Hemi" in the works to replace the Viper's truck engine. But that was a while ago.

Maybe, The people I polled at my office are far from car people. I don't think they really would care to much about the performance of these car since they all look like they obviously kick some ass on the road. As we know looks are subjective, but it does tell me that the Camaro has to make a few changes before it goes into production. The one thing that really stood out was that most said they didn't like the Camaro because of the frontend, which echos what everyone here has been saying.

Those that picked the Challenger said that is just looked powerful and they like how the lines were smooth flowing as compared to the Camaro.

I just though it was interesting.

Is there an echo in here? This is what I've been saying. The Camaro concept looks like your grandfather's new Cadillac

We can't ALL love the Camaro. What would it spank on the roads if everyone drove a Camaro. So Challenger guy, I'll see you at the red light. I'll smoke that pork.

You mean you'll smoke my Challenger with a Viper engine under my hood? Yeh right.

M

The poll is a representative sample, as are all polls. It may be skewed but I imagine it would be skewed toward the most diehard fans of the Camaro name. So if the most diehard fans are only 80% on board with the new concept, I'd call that a problem. The average Camaro owner probably won't be as ethusiastic. You following my logic or am I typing too fast?

M

OK.....by page two, I wanted to douse myself in gasoline and light a match.

I don't mean to flame you.......but I'm quite tired and have been putting in some very long hours.

It's painfully obvious to me that you have no......let me repeat that NO.....experience in customer focus groups or opinion polls. If you did, you'd know that a score of over 60 percent is "knocking it out of the ballpark"

You don't have to like the car. We know that no matter what we do, we will never get everyone to like the car. Fine......it's a free country. We hope the styling will grow on you. If it does not, we can't do a lot about that.

All that said, I don't know who you are, but I question whether or not you actually have a 'stake' in the new Camaro (i.e. your livelihood is based on the success or failure of it....)

Now......OK to voice your opinion, but make sure you know what you're talking about on this site......because if you don't your clock WILL be cleaned.

(another hint......if you have a criticizm of the car......give a workable solution)

Lastly.........have you even SEEN the car in person? Autoweek voted UNANIMOUSLY to give it an award....that's only ever happened once before.

Lock this thread and bam mh....that is all. :D

OK.....by page two, I wanted to douse myself in gasoline and light a match.

I don't mean to flame you.......but I'm quite tired and have been putting in some very long hours.

It's painfully obvious to me that you have no......let me repeat that NO.....experience in customer focus groups or opinion polls. If you did, you'd know that a score of over 60 percent is "knocking it out of the ballpark"

You don't have to like the car. We know that no matter what we do, we will never get everyone to like the car. Fine......it's a free country. We hope the styling will grow on you. If it does not, we can't do a lot about that.

All that said, I don't know who you are, but I question whether or not you actually have a 'stake' in the new Camaro (i.e. your livelihood is based on the success or failure of it....)

Now......OK to voice your opinion, but make sure you know what you're talking about on this site......because if you don't your clock WILL be cleaned.

(another hint......if you have a criticizm of the car......give a workable solution)

Lastly.........have you even SEEN the car in person? Autoweek voted UNANIMOUSLY to give it an award....that's only ever happened once before.

My clock is still waiting to be cleaned. By the way, I don't have a stake in the new Camaro except for the stake any fan might have in their favorite auto. Don't get me wrong, I want to like the new Camaro and I have given a number of suggestions.

M

dude, from the point of view of someone looking in on this thread other than yourself, your clock has been cleaned a looooong time ago. take some of the logical advice others have given and either give better reasonings or take the little dignity you have left (if you even have any left) and stop this nonsense.

My clock is still waiting to be cleaned.

M

Well it's your lucky day!!

You don't like it....thats fine. You'd rather get a Challenger....great! Your opinions don't hold up here.....oh well.

Welcome aboard!

Why are people so harse on others that don't agree with them? I don't understand that mentality at all. So the guy doesn't like the Camaro in it's present form. So what, big deal. Why slam him for his opinion?

Why are people so harse on others that don't agree with them? I don't understand that mentality at all. So the guy doesn't like the Camaro in it's present form. So what, big deal. Why slam him for his opinion?

I think it's natural for people to attempt to try to quiet others who espouse views that are contradictory to their own. It doesn't bother me though. It tells me I hit a nerve. I think what I've said has caused many to rethink their opinion of the Camaro concept. I'm hoping Chevy changes the Camaro before going to market. If there's enough of an uproar, they just might. That's my goal because I am a huge Camaro fan.

M

I think it's natural for people to attempt to try to quiet others who espouse views that are contradictory to their own. It doesn't bother me though. It tells me I hit a nerve. I think what I've said has caused many to rethink their opinion of the Camaro concept. I'm hoping Chevy changes the Camaro before going to market. If there's enough of an uproar, they just might. That's my goal because I am a huge Camaro fan.

M

I don't think so, I think your arguments supporting your opinion are just...shall we say, unique to you. You didn't strike a nerve, it's just that nobody agrees with you :D . If you actually presented an argument that turned a light on for anyone, then you would have accomplished something, but all you did was stir the pot. To most people that equals Troll. It's fine that you don't like it, but the vast majority does, and it will get built. Hopefully some day it will grow on you, and do yourself a favor and see it in person. It has SUCH a different character in person, it has a beauty that just isn't there in pictures.

Why are people so harse on others that don't agree with them? I don't understand that mentality at all. So the guy doesn't like the Camaro in it's present form. So what, big deal. Why slam him for his opinion?

right now i don't think it has much to do with disagreeing with him on the new camaro concept.. its statements like having 85% of poll responders giving an 8-10 to the concept is a bad thing.. as fbodfather said.. he obviously has no experience in customer focus groups or opinion polls..

it doesnt bother me when people say they don't like the Camaro concept, what bothers me is when they say that the Camaro will fail unless the car is changed to fit their opinion..

when people act like their opinion is the only one that matters, as mh12345 has done, then it kinda gets to me

Why are people so harse on others that don't agree with them? I don't understand that mentality at all. So the guy doesn't like the Camaro in it's present form. So what, big deal. Why slam him for his opinion?

He is allowed to think it sucks. That is fine. What is annoying to me is how insistent he is that the 5th gen will be a failure, just because he does not like it. None of his arguements for his point have held much water, and his only response is how "crappy" an 80% approval rating is.

I wish GM didn't go retro(or heritage or whatever you want to call it) on the 5th gen, but what is done is done. The car is still going to sell well, regardless.

*edit - damn FS3800, beat me to it.

......Remember the first time you saw a 4th Gen?........
M

Yeah, as a matter of fact I do remember the first time.

I was driving in my '78 Z28 behind what I thought was a Geo Storm (anybody else remember those??) until I got close enough to see that it was a Camaro :eek: !! Talk about being unimpressed! After that I was referrring to them as a "Geo Storm on Steroids". Shortly after that, I was so underwhelmed by the look, that I ended up buying a '92 Z28 when I was fortunate enough to get divorced and was finally able to buy myself a "new" car.

A few years later, after putting a good amount of miles on, it it was time to get another "new" car. I would have preffered a 4th Gen T/A or Formula (still thought the 4th Gen Camaros were plain looking), but I found a GREAT deal on a used 95 Z28 which I fell in love with after taking it on a test drive. In 2003 I got a 01 SS.

I still prefer the look of a 3rd Gen over the 4th. I was never a huge fan of the 4th Gen Camaro's body with the exception of the SS (probably because the scoop reminds me so much of the scoop on my '78 Z). Even though, I still owned 2 of them and thought they were both great cars (especially the SS :metal:). If money was no object, I'd still owm both of them.

Yeah, it took a while for the look of the 4th Gen to grow on me, but the power, handling, & "feel" was something that I had to have. Point is, just because someone isn't in love with the look of the 5th Gen (but I am! :bow: ), doesn't necessarily mean that they want nothing to do with it.
..............at first!!

*edit - damn FS3800, beat me to it.

by a whole 4 minutes, i'm surprised you didn't see my post

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3602766&postcount=10