Hi all. This does not pertain to my 96 Z28, but my brother owns a 99 Camaro with the 3.8 V6. It has 145,000 miles on it. I wanted the knowledge of you boys to chime in on this....

We changed the belt tensioner on it tonight, but when we fired it up he had 0 oil pressure. It was fine when he drove into the garage tonight. Well, I decided to change the oil. When I pulled the plug, nothing came out..... I took a screwdriver and just pushed it into the drain about an inch and finally oil started to flow. I believe the most that came out of it was around 3 quarts. I pulled the filter next....have a look at the pics below...and yes in the first picture the filter is upside down....no oil has poured out of it at all.

http://www.ace1252.com/pic1.jpg
http://www.ace1252.com/pic2.jpg
http://www.ace1252.com/pic3.jpg
http://www.ace1252.com/pic4.jpg

Would coolant in the oil make it this thick??? He told me his oil was just changed 2 months ago. He has been slowly losing coolant over the last 2 months...very slow rate. I thought I had found the leak tonight, because coolant moves through the belt tensioner bracket. It has two plastic couplings that coolant runs through on the tensioner bracket. The collars on the ends of the couplings were cracked below the sealing o-rings. I thought coolant was slowly leaking from here onto the block and burning off. There was no dripping of any kind. With the above pics though...I wonder if it's head gasket or something....opinions?

 

I think this would be a good time to send an oil sample off and see what problems the oil has, aside from being filtered by a FRAM. Have you cut open the filter to see if it is ruptured?

The best way to tell water in oil is to pour it out and let it sit overnight. It will seperate. Has he checked his PCV valve yet.
Also, can I post links to these pictures at bob is the oil guy and see what they say? MIght get some better answers.

 

Moving to correct forum.....

 

I have seen this symptom before on an engine and it was caused by using non detergent/ cheap *** oil, and it was normally clogged in the lifter valley as well, so check that too.

 

I'm just about ready to pull the oil pan. I know one thing...GM made it very difficult to remove the pan. There is a Automatic transmission bracket that is in my way. It was mounted in such a way that you have to remove the right engine mount to get the bracket out of the way. Nothing but a PITA. I'll post pictures of what I find in the pan.

 

No, no, no...

Don't pull this again. Fram might not be the God of all filters, but evidently they pass some sort of gubbermint standards that allow them to be sold, just like oil does. I know my Ranger has a pretty darn stout engine and putting a Fram on it like I have in the past wouldn't make it sweat (so that's not fair for comparison), but even I have faith that a Fram would not ruin a 3.8L. Heck, I bet some decent portion of Fram's aren't anything more than rebadges of other brands.

Now, with that out of the way, sludging is a symptom of not changing oil often enough and I suppose with the way many GM vee-engine intake manifold gaskets go "bye bye", this could be another one of those cases as well.

Now, I don't know if I can get a link to the post, but a little Google searching on how engine sludge forms (I guess that's what creature you've got on that filter) comes to this...

My thoughts....If you're brother is going to drive around with coolant going *somewhere* for 2 months, if not longer, he way as well not be driving if he can't maintain a vehicle. Not trying to be harsh, honest(!), but be responsible at least! The instant my Ranger was loosing coolant from the reservoir, my (back then) broke self at least narrowed it down to needing a new radiator cap. Problem solved. Anyway, on with the show. Thanks to "Jacques" for his research, since I used it anyway.
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How SLUDGE is formed (very long)

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Jacques
Jan 27 2001, 9:34 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota
From: smg@no_spam.com (Jacques) - Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:32:53 GMT
Local: Sat, Jan 27 2001 9:32 pm
Subject: How SLUDGE is formed (very long)
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I just read a report in the AERA (engine rebuilder association)
publication an article on sludge that i think might interest plenty
of peoples here.


WHAT IS ENGINE SLUDGE AND HOW IS IT FORMED??
Engine sludge is a thick, jelly-like substance that is detrimental to
the performance and extended life of an engine. Sludge obstructs
oil passages and restrict oil flow. Once built up it reduces heat
transfer, increase the operating temperature and hampers engine
operation. Sludge will ultimately lead to shorten engine life.


Although the oil appears to be at fault , it is actually the victim of
a mechanical and chemical attack. The formation of sludge is a
complex interaction of components. Each of the following factors
deserve attention.


SOOT: soot is fine powder that is a product of incomplete combustion.
this carbon substance enters the crankcase with exhaust blow-by gases
that escape past the piston rings. Since soot is a very fine powder,
it thickens oil by a process called "soot loading."It gels the oil
like a cake mix thickens milk. If your motor oil becomes excessively
thick, there will be less oil circulated through the engine. Also the
oil will leave a thicker oil film on the engine parts, wich prevents
proper heat transfer. By remaining on the hot parts, the oil will burn
and form deposits.


HEAT: Engine heat , a natural result of internal combustion, take its
toll on your motor oil. In the presence of air, oil undergoes a
process called oxidation, wich becomes more severe as the temperature
increases. Oxidationthickens the oil and produces corrosive acids.
Left unchecked, your oil would degrade into a tar-like mess.


While you want your engine temperature above 210 F to evaporate
unwanted contaminants, above 250 F the oil is more prone to oxidation
At temperature of 300 F this process occurs rapidly.Oil companies have
some addidives that contain powerful oxidation inhibitors. As long as
these inhibitors are presents, no signifiant oxidation will occur.
However , these additives are consumed with time. After their
depletion, oil oxidation proceeds rapidly. Regular oil changes are
needed to remove the unwanted products of combustion and to replenish
the supply of oxidation inhibitors.


FUEL: Fuel enters your crankcase with exhaust blow-by gases in
unburned and partially burned forms. It is chemically unstable;
therefore , it reacts with itself and the oil to form gums, varnishes
and asphaltic-type compounds.These resinous substances are also
unstables and react further to cause even more oil thickening.


WATER: Water gets into your crankcase typically through condensation
or in exhaust gases that escape past the piston rings.It is your
engine job to get rid of this moistureby operating at sufficiently
high temperatures. However , all engines operateperiodically at low
temp and experience some water contamination. When this occurs, Water
becomeemulsified. That is , it is absorbed by the oil, which thickens
the lubricant. As a result, the oil does not flow or cool well. The
increased can cause the oil to burn, creating engine deposits.
Unfortunately, there is not much that engine oil can do to reduce the
harmful effects of water. Oil changes every 3000 miles are the best
way to take care of this problem.


ACIDS: When fuel burns, some product of combustion react with moisture
to form acids. These include sulfuric,hydrochloric and organic acids.
Sulfur-based acids attack the oil reducing its detergency. Organic
acids react withunburned fuel to promote sludge and varnish. In
addition, acids can cause additive setting, or dropout.


DIRT: Peoples associate dirt with engine wear. It can also play a role
in sludge formation. Wear of piston rings and cylinder walls cause an
increase in piston blow-by.Since exhaust gases contain harmful
by-products, their presence in the crankcase should be minimized. Some
of these compounds will escape past the rings.


ENGINE COOLANT(Anti-freeze):Coolant is your engine oil's number one
enemy. Engine sludge is enevitable when oil meets engine coolant.
Contamination of your oil with coolant promotes sludge by two means.
First, it introduce water into the oil. This presents problems that
we've prviously discussed. Second , it brings into contact oil and
coolant, which are incompatibles fluids.
Oil and coolant react to form deposit as they experience temperature
changes in your engine. Some are gooey or gel-like. Others are hard,
brittle deposits that plug oil passageways, reducing oil flow. These
two types of deposit guarantee a shortened life for your engine.
No oil additives will help solve this problem. The only solution is to
drain the oil and locate the source of contamination. Then , have the
mechanical problem repaired. These are the enemies of your engine oil
--Soot,Heat,Fuel,Water,Acid,Dirt,&Engine Coolant.


Sludge formation is the result of one or more of these factors:
--severe service driving with improper drain intervals
--mechanical malfunctions
--inadequate engine maintenance


SEVERE SERVICE DRIVING
1-Short trips/stops & go
-going to the corner store
-driving in crowded downtown
2-Extended idling
- sitting in trafic
- delivery truck operation
3-High temperature operation
- low speed driving at high ambient temperatures
4-Extreme cold
-starting engine below 0 F
5- Heavy loads
-operating in hilly region
- trailer towing
6- Dusty conditions
- more common than expected
Although some of these situations may not seem severe, they all put
additionnal demands on your motor oil. Under these conditions,
automakers require that drain interval be reduced to 3 months or 3000
miles. Severe conditions are not uncommon. It is estimated that we
operate our vehicules 80% of the time under severe service.


MECHANICAL MALFUNCTIONS
A clogged or defective PCV valve can contribute to sludge formation.
If this valve does not operate properly, harmful exhaust gases remain
in the crankcase. These gases, which contain water, acids, soot, etc,
promote sludge.


POOR ENGINE MAINTENANCE
Lack of maintenance is probabely responsible for more sludge engines
than all other categories.
Use the proper oil for your engine. Never use oil that is rated less
than the minimum API Service Category specified by your car
manufacturer.


Some other condition that promote sludge are : clogged air filter, low
oil level, low coolant level, bad fuel , etc.


Often the oil seems to be at fault. But more often oil is the victim
of mechanical malfunctions, extended oil drains or a poorely tuned
engine.


Sorry if this report is so long .
I just hope that you find it interesting and that is give you another
point of vue on this subject.


Jacques.

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You are completely right Alfred. I have warned him about not taking care of his machine. Seems to go in one ear and out the other. I do know that when he (personally) changes the oil he uses a good quality like Castrol GTX, but he does let shops do it more often than not...and he is not always sure what they use in it. I'm not sure how often he changes it....needless to say, I have never seen a sludge buildup in an engine like this.

Thanks for the very informative article. The sludge discription of coolant in the oil sounds exactly like what I've been seeing in the oil. It is very jelly like...

The car had decent pressure when he drove it into the garage, but I feel that sludge in the pan moved when we put it onto the ramps. I think it is completely blocking the pickup. I'm about to pull the pan. No telling what I'll find. I'll take and post pics of it.

 

I am not saying that FRAMs will kill a car, although some will argue it, like Cummins, it's just that he is wasting his money by buying one. Better can be had for cheaper.

 

I ran into a problem trying to lift the engine. The boom length of the engine hoist I just bought was 42". I didn't realize that I needed at least 60" to clear the front nose of the car. Needless to say, I took that lift back to Northern Tool. The max length they had was a 2 ton 48". My Dad has a 3 ton with a max of around 72". He is going to bring it down here...so I'm at a stand still right now. I'll post up when I start making progress again.

 

I know this is gonna sound funny but.
I ran into this once, if the goo is jelly like it is the glycol from the anti-freeze.
the easyest and fastest why to tell is take a dab of this goo and touch it on the tip of your tonge, yah I know but if its sweet its anti-freeze

 

I just did a 4.3 with the same problem. If it is the orange antifreeze it will thicken the oil. Mine was a blown head gasket. Machine shop gave me this info. so I'll pass it on!

 

take a drop of the oil, and put it on a spoon. Put a butane lighter under the spoon and listen for crackling.

Easy way to test for water.

 

Finally got my Dad's engine hoist. Finally got that damn oil pan off too.

http://www.ace1252.com/oilpan1.jpg
http://www.ace1252.com/oilpan2.jpg
http://www.ace1252.com/crank1.jpg
http://www.ace1252.com/crank2.jpg
http://www.ace1252.com/crank3.jpg

and small movie of oil pan....

http://www.ace1252.com/oilpanvid.avi

I had to convert from MOV to divx avi. You'll need divx codec to view the movie.

Get here --->http://www.divxmovies.com/codec/

Maybe coolant in the oil. I'm going to do a compression test. Hopefully, that will show any head gasket issues.

Actually, scratch the above.....I'm going to try a Cooling system pressure tester.

 

Personally, I'd would look for low-mileage engine from junkyard at this point. Or rebuild, but it will be more expensive. Bearings probably shot, too many miles, etc...

 

Christ, think you could resize the pics for us?