Where did the Lucerne come from?

What hole have I been in. I really like this car and I think it looks halfway decent. It sure is price nicely agaisnt a 300 and other models. They just need to do 2 things and I would think about picking one up.:eek: Put that 6spd from the C6 and Cadillac in it and make it RWD. I think would be the only things I would change.......ok and some more power (300hp sounds nice). The interior looks good, and if that is where Buick is going I think things will be looking up for them soon.

So you would change the whole drivetrain and then it would be an acceptable car?

Unless Buick gets a performance car, I don't see them going RWD. There is no reason for it. They are cruisers, not any more or any less. There are plenty of RWD options out there(maybe not within GM yet).

Pair a mostly unchanged 1995 Aurora chassis w/ an antiquated 3.8L V6 and 4-speed auto, release it as an all new premium Buick model for 2006, and see if people believe you.

Why is GM still trying to fool people?

The northstar and magnetic ride suspension are cool options but end up pricing the car over 40k IIRC which places it in the way of competition I doubt it can run with.

Pair a mostly unchanged 1995 Aurora chassis w/ an antiquated 3.8L V6 and 4-speed auto, release it as an all new premium Buick model for 2006, and see if people believe you.

Why is GM still trying to fool people?

Ouch!

Didn't we already cover the chassis issue (or non-issue) in some other threads? I do agree about the 3800 and 4 speed auto, though.

On the one hand, 200 hp and 4 gears is MORE than adequate for about 75% of the buyers of that car, many of whom probably never apply more than 50% throttle anyway. But my personal feeling/wish is that the 3.6L VVT should be the base engine. Obviously the transverse six speed auto will come when it is ready (Saturn Aura gets it as an '07, hopefully others will get it in '07 as well). Unfortunately, I'm sure the 3800 has a huge cost advantage over the 3.6L, and knowing the target audience of the car, I can understand why they put it in. They figure they are going to sell, say 140k (whatever the LeSabre and Park Ave sold) of these every year, and probably 75% of those sales are to people who don't give a hoot about the engine/transmission. As long as its quiet, reliable, offers "good pickup", most will be happy with it. When GM is struggling to make money, it would be hard to justify a $2000 engine over a $1200 dollar engine (making up numbers) when most outside the media or enthusiast world will care. For those ~25% who do care, the Northstar is available. Remember that the LeSabre never had more than the 3800 (and the slightly bigger Park Ave had the 240 hp 3800 s/c as its top dog), and the LeSabre has been the best selling "full size" car for years.

Point is, while I too wish for a more potent and image-friendly base engine, I understand why they did what they did given the need for profits right now, and possibly volume limitations on the 3.6 (?). Of course, as volumes go up on the 3.6L VVT (and its variants), the cost should come down...

As far as the rest of the car goes, I personally think it is very classy and attractive looking. People buying the 3800 versions of the car will be more interested in the looks, the interior, the ride, the quiet. Those looking for the sportier Northstar flavor, however, might be drawn to the Avalon's 280 hp V6 (with a fuel economy advantage over the N*), or the new 280 hp Passat for that matter. In my personal view, the Buick loses some points there in fuel economy, but makes up for it with prettier styling, a nicer (though simpler) looking interior (at least compared to Avalon), and the subjective advantages of a nice V8 vs. a nice V6 of similar power.

Pair a mostly unchanged 1995 Aurora chassis w/ an antiquated 3.8L V6 and 4-speed auto, release it as an all new premium Buick model for 2006, and see if people believe you.

Why is GM still trying to fool people?

The northstar and magnetic ride suspension are cool options but end up pricing the car over 40k IIRC which places it in the way of competition I doubt it can run with.

okay Threxx... have you ever driven a lasabre with the 3800 & a 4 speed?

i dont know if its the same... but i'm pretty sure its 90% the same...

that Lasabre had some balls! much more then most other cars i've driven... who cares if that 3800 only has what 200 hp? my parents camry (1998) has 194 hp, probably more like 170 but still they(my parents) think that is way to much power, and an impala with a 3800 or what not, would run circles around the competition... i wouldnt call the 3800 antiquated...

okay Threxx... have you ever driven a lasabre with the 3800 & a 4 speed?

i dont know if its the same... but i'm pretty sure its 90% the same...

that Lasabre had some balls! much more then most other cars i've driven... who cares if that 3800 only has what 200 hp? my parents camry (1998) has 194 hp, probably more like 170 but still they(my parents) think that is way to much power, and an impala with a 3800 or what not, would run circles around the competition... i wouldnt call the 3800 antiquated...

The 3.0/3.3 Toyota motor is antiquated, as is the 3.8. They both are.

That's why they've both been replaced or are in the process of being replaced for the most part. Toyota has been in the process of putting the all new GR-series 3.5L in all of its models that were using the 3.0/3.3 when they get a redesign. I don't blame GM for having an existing model with the 3.8, just as long as they plan on replacing it with the new generation V6 when it comes time to redesign. But this is a "brand new" 35k dollar car and they decided to go in with the old and out with the new - the opposite of what I'd have hoped and expected.

The 3.0/3.3 Toyota motor is antiquated, as is the 3.8. They both are.

That's why they've both been replaced or are in the process of being replaced for the most part. Toyota has been in the process of putting the all new GR-series 3.5L in all of its models that were using the 3.0/3.3 when they get a redesign. I don't blame GM for having an existing model with the 3.8, just as long as they plan on replacing it with the new generation V6 when it comes time to redesign. But this is a "brand new" 35k dollar car and they decided to go in with the old and out with the new - the opposite of what I'd have hoped and expected.

as soon as GM gets completely done designing the direct injection then we'll have some good things, that should be by 07 ym...

Yes, we've been over this before.......NOT the same exact chassis.

Further, the 3800 goes away next year. It's called capacity. There is only so much capacity at the moment for the newer V6s........the Northstar will appeal to a younger buyer. The Traditional Buick Buyer sees the 3800 as Fort Knox. (YES..........WE TALKED TO THEM!!!)

I can't imagine anyone on this site that the Lucerne is targeted toward. There's a thread on this forum (when I typed this) that talks about the fact that GM has to stop producing overlap models. Well.......the Lucerne is not an overlap model.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

(I'm cranky tonite.......way too much time working on the long island autoshow.)

Maybe I am the exception, but I am 28 and I will be buying a Lucerne.

Contrary to the popular beliefs of this board, not every car needs 500 horsepower, a 6 speed manual option, and RWD with IRS.

I am with the group that fbodfather referred to as thinking that the 3800 is Fort Knox. All of the 3800's I have ever seen have ran forever. They were either sold before the death of the engine, or had something else go wrong with the car, which caused the ownership to terminate. In short, I have never seen a 3800 fail.

I'm sorry, I just remembered that I did see one fail. But, there was a TSB for it. The intake was allowing coolant to enter the engine and caused a hydrolock situation. This was not the engines fault, but a failure in the intake.

I don't need the Northstar. I already have a Camaro. I travel a lot for work. For me, I want quiet, reliability, comfort, ride, mileage and looks out of my work car. The Lucerne provides all of this. Better than any other GM car in its price range.

Now that fbodfather dropped the bomb that the 3800 is gone next year, I wonder what the base engine will be? The 3.6?

Yes, we've been over this before.......NOT the same exact chassis.

Further, the 3800 goes away next year. It's called capacity. There is only so much capacity at the moment for the newer V6s........the Northstar will appeal to a younger buyer. The Traditional Buick Buyer sees the 3800 as Fort Knox. (YES..........WE TALKED TO THEM!!!)

I can't imagine anyone on this site that the Lucerne is targeted toward. There's a thread on this forum (when I typed this) that talks about the fact that GM has to stop producing overlap models. Well.......the Lucerne is not an overlap model.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

(I'm cranky tonite.......way too much time working on the long island autoshow.)Thanks for chiming in, Scott. I'm with ya... btw, your post didn't really come across as cranky, so don't sweat it. :)

General Z: Nice post. Interesting to hear someone who is actually considering purchasing the car chime in with what he is looking for in a DD.

The 3800 is FORT KNOX , lol . My 97 SSE bonnie had 208,000 when I traded for the SS , and my dads 93 Bonnie currently has 32x,xxx . Both cars lived most of their lives easy on the highway , but man . If I were buying a Lucere , I wouldnt wince one bit at a 3800 :)

Bulletproof!!!

I am really debating now if I should get the 3800 model, or wait until next year and get the new base model engine.

I'll bet that the price will increase next year. Plus, the new engine won't have the 3800 reliability tag.

I don't have any problem with the Lucerne. By all accounts from people who have worked on it, seen it, or driven it is that it's a good car.

As was said before, it's not a car the majority of the people on this site would consider, but IMO it hits and goes beyond it's target audience.

Buick isn't going to lure any Toyota or even many Chevy buyers. But there are people who swear by Buick, and Buick has one of the world's most loyal repeat customers.

It's not a Chrysler 300C, but then again it doesn't have to be. :)

There's a thread on this forum (when I typed this) that talks about the fact that GM has to stop producing overlap models. Well.......the Lucerne is not an overlap model.


Damned straight. And a very nice product for Buick it is. Frankly, I think it's styling hits an absolute bullseye for it's segment. It's interior is a huge leap forward from the car it replaces. It's also alot of value for the money. The available NS is just the frosting on the cake.

I just find it to be one very attractive product. Kudos to Buick.

BTW RP, thanks for taking the time to show me around (and let me get in and poke around) the Lucerne that was on display at the Chicago show. That car really impressed me.

Yes, we've been over this before.......NOT the same exact chassis.

Further, the 3800 goes away next year. It's called capacity. There is only so much capacity at the moment for the newer V6s........the Northstar will appeal to a younger buyer. The Traditional Buick Buyer sees the 3800 as Fort Knox. (YES..........WE TALKED TO THEM!!!)

I can't imagine anyone on this site that the Lucerne is targeted toward. There's a thread on this forum (when I typed this) that talks about the fact that GM has to stop producing overlap models. Well.......the Lucerne is not an overlap model.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

(I'm cranky tonite.......way too much time working on the long island autoshow.)

My parents have a 3800 in their Trans Port that has over 220k miles on it and still going strong with no problems at all....Never once. They just picked up a Uplander and for having a motor a little smaller, but similar power numbers to the 3800 I'm, and my dad, are disappointed. The motor just doesn't have enough trq to pull the vehical. BTW, my parents got 40-50 mpg(not a missprint or calculation) on their Trans Port going from KC to PA with over 100k miles on the whole car. They did that not once, but atleast twice that I can remember.

People, there are some underpowered buzzy 4cyl motors that Honda has been making for the last couple of decades that are bullet proof as well. Does that mean I'd excuse their presence in a 32-35k dollar Acura TL or a 42k dollar Acura RL? Helllll no.

Just because a motor is old and proven reliable doesn't mean it belongs in a brand new premium priced car. I'm sure GM knows this and I can only imagine as fbodfather said they're just limited by production. Get the newer high content V6 and 6-speed auto and it'll be a whole new story.

Oh, and I'm sure it's not the 'exact same chassis', but could you tell me what's changed/improved?

I will miss the 3800...while the new VVT 3.9 and HF 3.6 are "better" engines, I really wish they had given the 3800 one more revision and ignored the 3.9. A 240hp N/A 3800 and a 280hp s/c 3800 would be great :(

We'll see how long mine runs for :D With my renewed love for third gens, like I've said before...I think I'll be driving the GP for a long, long time...

So Buick is going were Olds left off. I know I've said it probably 100 times, but GM should have left Olds.
I checked out a lot of the pics. of the Lucerne on the Buick site. From the pics I thought the front had kind of a Mercury look to it. And the dash components looks like it was transplanted out of the new Impala, which is not a bad thing, but not very original. Like I always do, I'll reserve my final judgement when I'll get to give the car a good looking over in person. Overall I liked the car, probably because its very unBuick, and the Northstar will make a nice option for this car.

So when is the Lucerne due out? I remember Lucerne pics. started popping up here last winter.

I have to chuckle sometimes when the discussion gets into powertrains.

I remember many an enthusiast and journalist slamming GM because of "old pushrod technology....." when we launched the LS1/Ls6.............


(need I say more)

Then there were the ones that howled when we announced the 5.3 in the Silverado...............

I don't think you can judge the Lucerne until you drive it.

I have to chuckle sometimes when the discussion gets into powertrains.

I remember many an enthusiast and journalist slamming GM because of "old pushrod technology....." when we launched the LS1/Ls6.............


(need I say more)

Then there were the ones that howled when we announced the 5.3 in the Silverado...............

I don't think you can judge the Lucerne until you drive it.

They proved that pushrods can make great power without bad fuel economy. The 3.8 neither has impressive fuel economy nor power for its class. What's left? NVH? I don't have any quantifiable data on that but I can't imagine the 3.8 has better NVH levels than the new GM V6s?

People, there are some underpowered buzzy 4cyl motors that Honda has been making for the last couple of decades that are bullet proof as well. Does that mean I'd excuse their presence in a 32-35k dollar Acura TL or a 42k dollar Acura RL? Helllll no.


Um, since when has Honda ever built a buzzy I4? Underpowered, maybe, but never anything less than smooth.

As far as the 3800 goes and its reputation, I have to agree that it's bulletproof. But then, I have to ask - isn't that pretty much par for the course for the vast majority of engines nowadays?

uhmmmmm.........go back and read it again.......

Here it is:

QUOTE:
I have to chuckle sometimes when the discussion gets into powertrains.

I remember many an enthusiast and journalist slamming GM because of "old pushrod technology....." when we launched the LS1/Ls6.............


(need I say more)

Then there were the ones that howled when we announced the 5.3 in the Silverado...............

I don't think you can judge the Lucerne until you drive it.

UNQUOTE.

It was a remark about powertrains.......

No, the 3800 is not a modern power plant. But it is bullet proof. Look at the posts on this thread.

Yes, it has more NVH than the newer V6s.......but the fuel economy is par for the industry.

We didn't design the V6 Lucerne for you.

Perhaps we hope you'll drive a Northstar Lucerne and be impressed.

We DO have to keep our faithful Buick customers......and they believe very strongly in the 3800. Now.......if there are constraints on the numbers of V6s we can build as we ramp up the new engines, WHERE WOULD YOU PUT THE 3800????????

In the G6?

Since I've driven a few Lucerne(s) myself, I can add to this that the Lucerne will be a excellent addition to the Buick lineup. The 3800 provides plenty of zip for the driver, not the racer. The Northstar has the sound and zip most people would want on this board. It's a bullseye for this market.

, WHERE WOULD YOU PUT THE 3800????????

In the G6?

I think that's a great idea! Especially if it's supercharged and comes with a manual trans. :cool:

Um, since when has Honda ever built a buzzy I4? Underpowered, maybe, but never anything less than smooth.

As far as the 3800 goes and its reputation, I have to agree that it's bulletproof. But then, I have to ask - isn't that pretty much par for the course for the vast majority of engines nowadays?


Most 4-cyls are buzzy, from any brand. Honda on average seems to make smoother ones, but still, compare the smoothest 4cyl to the V6 in the Acura RL now and the 4cyl would be making quite a bit morew NVH. My point is it wouldn't belong no matter how bullet-proof it is because it's rough around the edges and underpowered for a car at that price point.

I can't imagine anyone on this site that the Lucerne is targeted toward.

Erm...

I'm kinda sorta looking at one for the spousal unit.

I'll take the 3800 too.

Understand though that I REALLY liked the old Roadmaster.
Heck of a car...
Big, comfy, floaty, drive it with your pinky...

My kinda All-American, "let's knock out 600 miles in one sitting (except for the wifey's walnut-sized bladder)" highway cruiser road machine...

The imitation of European road cars gets nowhere with me. In a highway car:
I don't like brick-hard seats.
I don't like center consoles.
Column-shifted automatics are just fine.
I don't like stiff suspensions.
I want it dead quiet with a plush ride and couldn't care less about handling prowess.

I also worked on the old "C" car Park Avenue, so there's a soft spot in my heart for Buicks...

Um, since when has Honda ever built a buzzy I4? Underpowered, maybe, but never anything less than smooth.

I've driven Civic SIs that were very buzzy. So much so that I felt like I was hurting the engine to get it into the upper reaches where the VTEC would kick in. Not that they are any worse than any other manufacturer's 4 bangers, but they certainly could not be described as smooth.

Pair a mostly unchanged 1995 Aurora chassis w/ an antiquated 3.8L V6 and 4-speed auto, release it as an all new premium Buick model for 2006, and see if people believe you.

Why is GM still trying to fool people?

The northstar and magnetic ride suspension are cool options but end up pricing the car over 40k IIRC which places it in the way of competition I doubt it can run with.
As opposed to toyota taking a Camry, re-skinning it and making a new car line and charging 15K more for it?

As opposed to toyota taking a Camry, re-skinning it and making a new car line and charging 15K more for it?

The ES, optioned as similarly as possible to the Camry, only costs ~3500 bucks more and includes more additional features than I care to go over at the moment. Needless to say if you're considering a loaded Camry, the ES is certainly worth considering for the ~12% increase in price with similar equipment.

If you're referring to the RX or something, the chassis on the RX is derived from the ES, but is significantly moddified, stretched, reinforced, etc. If you want to talk about derived chassis design you could probably connect 90% of the car models made on the planet to date.:p