has anyone autox'd against a s2000

i would like to know if anyone out there has autox'd against a s2000, i would like to challenge my friend to a race and im pretty sure i can beat him, he isnt that good of a driver, i can tell, anyone raced one?

well its 90% driver on an autocross course.

but if you are just as inexperienced as him I see him edgine out.

It all depends on the driver. He could have a Ferrari and you could still beat him. That's the beauty of autocross as opposed to drag racing. Anybody can drag race. That's all about mechanical power. Autocross is all about driving ability. I beat a Porsche boxster in Novice class my 2nd time out. I was driving my stock 87 Civic 4 door with dry rotted tires. Just goes to show...(see above)

Now if I had my choice, I'd probably take the S2000 since it's smaller and probably has better balance. If you both drove your car and then both drove his car, I'd bet both of your times would be faster in his car.

Want to compare cars? Go to the drag strip.
Want to compare driving ability? Go autocrossing. :D

I would say with an equal driver that the S2000 would win on an auto x course but I think the f-bod would win on a road course. JMO. Later,

Brian

= drivers, you will get killed :)

I've road raced aginst 4 or 5 S2000's.
They are very popular cars in Phoenix. Seems to be just as many S2000's as BMW's on the track.

Anyway, I guess I'm an above average driver. I get a lot of complements with my car and my driving, so I guess I'm doing something right. :)

In the straight sections I can pass them with ease. Only S2000 that could keep me from passing him in the straight sections was a NOS fed S2000. But I eventually passed him on the 3 or 4th lap when he ran out of NOS.

As for handling in the turns, it all depends on the driver. Newbies are easy to pass, while better drivers take time. In short, I have to wait for them to make a mistake.

Kurt

We have one that autoX's in Winnipeg. Great car + great driver + sticky tires = there's him ... then the rest of us in another time zone.

Originally posted by 2002Z28SSConv


Want to compare cars? Go to the drag strip.
Want to compare driving ability? Go autocrossing. :D

and there are a lot of ppl (roadracers) that would argue that driving around orange cones in a parking lot doesn't take much skill, either. what a bunch of malarky... it takes a fair amount of skill to rip a 1.6-1.7 60 ft. time on street tires. can you do it?

i am constantly amazed at the elitest attitude of auto-x'rs and roadracers. it's the same in the motorcycle community, as well. more than a few motorcyclists, and quite a few cagers too, i'm sure, believe that any monkey can make a gsxr-1000 run low 10's in 1/4 mile- obviously ppl that have never tried to launch a vehicle that has a 3lb/hp power to weight ratio and a 55" wheelbase.

my point is that all racing takes a certain set of skills. claiming otherwise will make you look like a jackass, ignorant, or both.

and there are a lot of ppl (roadracers) that would argue that driving around orange cones in a parking lot doesn't take much skill, either.

Probably not, especally not from anyone who's tried it. Either way autocrossing certainly takes alot more skill than holding down the gas pedal for 13-14 sec.

what a bunch of malarky... it takes a fair amount of skill to rip a 1.6-1.7 60 ft. time on street tires. can you do it?

Nope, and I seriously doubt you can either. I dont think its even possible with our cars on "real" street tires.

i am constantly amazed at the elitest attitude of auto-x'rs and roadracers.

Then go back do the dragstrip, you won't be missed.

Just to clarify before I start - I autocross and have not drag raced at a strip. However, a good launch is extremely important in an autocross (last event I drove, first place in my class was decided 131/1000 second) against 63 second times.

You put me in a 12 second car and I'll get at least 13s first time. Guaranteed.

I put the 12 second driver (with no autocross experience) in my autocross car and we go head-to-head, he will be embarassed.

Drag racing is 90% car 10% driver.
Autocross is 20% car 80% driver.

I can put an excellent autocrosser in a Yugo against a newbie in a Vette. The Yugo will win. Repeatedly.

Put those same cars on the drag strip and there is no way that the Yugo can win.

The two sports are that different,

I suppose someone will make me sorry that I posted this...

I agree with Keith.

I autoX and drag race recreationally. I agree that if all you are talking about is elapsed time, driver variance will be more readily apparent in autoX, but if you are talking about truly competing, where reaction times, 60' times, dial-ins, and car setup come into play, drag racing becomes every bit as complex and difficult as autoX or road racing. It's no different than the oval track/road course argument where many feel oval racing is easy ... yet the "road course specialists" that some NASCAR teams bring in look pretty ordinary against the "turn left only" Winston Cup drivers.

Originally posted by poSSum
I yet the "road course specialists" that some NASCAR teams bring in look pretty ordinary against the "turn left only" Winston Cup drivers.

uh, what do you expect.. them to have enlarged heads with pulsating brains? Super big eyes with dual eyelids and extra mylated or whatever nerves running down their arms and legs? Cyborg butt-o-meter enhancements?

:D

Originally posted by jthomas
and there are a lot of ppl (roadracers) that would argue that driving around orange cones in a parking lot doesn't take much skill, either. what a bunch of malarky... it takes a fair amount of skill to rip a 1.6-1.7 60 ft. time on street tires. can you do it?

i am constantly amazed at the elitest attitude of auto-x'rs and roadracers. it's the same in the motorcycle community, as well. more than a few motorcyclists, and quite a few cagers too, i'm sure, believe that any monkey can make a gsxr-1000 run low 10's in 1/4 mile- obviously ppl that have never tried to launch a vehicle that has a 3lb/hp power to weight ratio and a 55" wheelbase.

my point is that all racing takes a certain set of skills. claiming otherwise will make you look like a jackass, ignorant, or both.

Okay. You see it from your perspective. I see it from mine. I don't feel like an elitest. I have been to the dragstrip a few times too. My best 60' s 2.2 in a completely stock SS on F1's. Now... if you can pull of a 1.6 in my car, then and only then will you earn my respect (after your tone in the previous post). Guess what? I launch at 1800 when I autocross. That's a little less than I do at the VHT prepared dragstrip. Some people see a green light in the parking lot and rip 1/8 inch of rubber off their rear tires thinking that's the fastest way to start out. The launch is just as important in autocross. 3 months ago I was bumped out of a first place finish by 0.008 seconds. You tel me... Is the launch important? The ONLY true driver skill that is required in drag racing is the launch (sometimes shifting too). But I can have somebody else build and prepare a 10 second car for me to drive. I might not be able to launch it like a pro. But it'll still be blazingly fast. You go sit in the car that won this year's nationals. See if you can come within 5 seconds of the champ's time on a 60 second course. More than likely, neither you nor I could pull it off.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it...

Test your car's ability at the track. Test your own ability at the autocross.

Sorry but we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

(until you try autocrossing :D )

Also... I hate to nit pick... But I really enjoy it..

You said...
obviously ppl that have never tried to launch a vehicle that has a 3lb/hp power to weight ratio

3lb/hp is a weight to power ratio. :p

Originally posted by Soma07
Probably not, especally not from anyone who's tried it. Either way autocrossing certainly takes alot more skill than holding down the gas pedal for 13-14 sec.

Nope, and I seriously doubt you can either. I dont think its even possible with our cars on "real" street tires.

Then go back do the dragstrip, you won't be missed.

lol! oh my... showing me the door, are you? and just who the **** do you think you are to do so? if what i have to say warrants being shown the door, then make a complaint to the moderator. otherwise discuss like you are an adult or kindly stfu. kthx.

Originally posted by jthomas
...otherwise discuss like you are an adult or kindly stfu. kthx.

Likewise :cry: :rolleyes:

anyways, back to the topic.. if you look at SCCA Nat times, you'd be surprised how close they are in thier stock classes... with 3rd gen camaros edging some of em out. hehe

what i find amusing is the fact that some folks think i'm a drag-racer. why is that? (rhetorical question intended to make those that believe this to quetion themselves... i really don't want an answer). actually, i used do a little amateur motorcycle roadracing and prolly will again next season.

however, you are correct about me not being able to pull a 1.6-1.7 60 ft time. i can't, but have seen it done. just ask anyone that has been to any of the old school muscle events- you won't believe how hard some of these guys can launch those cream-puff 60's-early 70's iron.

your point about me not being able to come within five seconds of a championship time is well taken. however, i have also seen too many lt1/ls1 fbodys run high 14's and low 15's to know that skill is most certainly a factor when it comes to drag racing our cars.

i will once again reiterate my point that ALL racing requires skill. give the people that do it well the respect that they deserve.

uhh. not to get in on an argument.. but 1.6 60fts are cake walk. put stick tires on car. gear car properly, dump clutch from high RPM. make sure track is prepped.

my hooptie car on w a 10.5 tire, on a stiff suspension(autoX setup, straight rate coil overs, etc etc) 1.4 60fts.


now, get into super fast stuff, like 8sec stock suspension cars... and then you have some tuning to do, but its still not driving.


I agree with what Keith said.. drag racing is 90% car, %10 driver. autoXing is probably 80% driver, 20% car. at the top level, car still matters.. because its so close.


"road racing"(open tracking) is somewhere inbetween.

I do all 3, a lot.. btw :)

lol! oh my... showing me the door, are you?

Do as you wish, but if you dont want to be bothered by "elitist" auto-x'ers and roadracers then you probablty shoudnt hang around them.

and just who the **** do you think you are...

Just someone with alot more manners than you.


otherwise discuss like you are an adult or kindly stfu. kthx.

Very ironic considering you're the one who cant express themself without acting like a schoolyard bully.

Have a nice day :rolleyes:

hellooooooooooo... i AM a roadracer, not a drag-racer. i just try not to tell others (or myself, for that matter) that i am better than someone else at ALL aspects of driving because i roadrace. =\

telling someone to get lost, no matter how eloquently put, because you don't particularly care for what they have to say shows manners?? excuse me for taking offence to that. i guess if told you to get f**ked in a kind, gentle manner you would think more of me...

hehe... good stuff.

Point of view form a person who drag races 30 X mroe then he autocrosses Autocrssing is alot harder.

once you are past the lauch its a cake walk, and its harder for me, I have to keep it floored for nearly 16 seconds instead of 13-14 seconds.

With shift points you jsut have to feel it out a little, as for Autocrossing you have to feel it out alot more.

As a drag racer, my times are better then people with head, cams, and witihin 5/100ths of a secnd from guys with head, cams and slicks. I am stock blocked.

Autocrossing, I have had someone drive my car for the first time ever, when he was racing a 3rd gen with suspesnion work and my stock, extra thin swaybared and puleld a better time then me by like 3-4 seocnds.

Drag racing, I am above average, with .5XX R/Ts, 2.1XX 60's on the cheapest tires I cold find in size 235(Cooper Cobras) Check the v6 timeslip page in the v6 section. i ma in the L32(3.4l) sectoin.

autocrossing, I am below average, my times are generaaly slower then the rest of the class. i usually finish second to last, i need alot more practice with it, even one month had a guy pull a better time in a stock v6, without limited slip, STB, or sway bars.

At our level I think autocrossing is more difficult... at the top levels I think keeping a sub 7 second car on the track takes more than a good launch, so there is driving skill involved.... get out of the groove and you're history. I believe an argument could be made that at the top level drag racing is more difficult than autocrossing at the top. If just anyone could pilot a top fueler then you wouldn't see the same few names in the winners circle year after year. I don't know about you guys but 300 mph is FAST to me, and the cars involved are like steerable rockets.

Using the same analogy that was used before... I think any of us could get into the fastest autocross car in the world and get around the track within 20% of the top driver, but I sortof doubt that very many of us could drive a top fueler down a track and suvive, much less get a decent time.

IMO it's not a good subject for argument from either side... they're different sports and both take a lot of skill to get to the top, plus there a fair amount of subjective judgement involved.

But you're the first to bring top fuel into the equation. If you do that, then we have to compare Nascar and F1. Hey, why not bring Rally into it too.

You couldn't pay me to go 300 MPH :eek: NO WAY! Maybe on the salt. But no way on a narrow drag strip with another guided missle next to me going 300 MPH.

Oooh, NASCAR vs F1, now there's a good debate :D

I can't beleive there is any discussion on the "difficulty" of autox vs. drag racing. I have done both, as well as open track events, and am 100% certain that autox takes more skill from the driver. I won trophies bracket racing my old '97 Z28 M6, and winning bracket trophies in a basically stick car is not theeasy. But, if for no other reason than you know what to expect on the dragstrip, autox is more difficult because the course is always different, and you often only get 4 runs to figure out the fast way around it. Autocrossers don't go home when it rains, they adapt. Show me a drag racer with the balls to accept that the wet track is an equal disadvantage for all. How many times can you practice your launch technique on a .500 tree :p

Originally posted by chuck
I can't beleive there is any discussion on the "difficulty" of autox vs. drag racing

actually, my point of contention was that it was stated (in so many words) that it takes NO skill to dragrace. being a bracketracer, i'm sure that you know that this is not true. i'd rather not go near the "us vs them" mentality as that it is pointless.

Originally posted by chuck
autox is more difficult because the course is always different, and you often only get 4 runs to figure out the fast way around it. Autocrossers don't go home when it rains, they adapt. Show me a drag racer with the balls to accept that the wet track is an equal disadvantage for all. How many times can you practice your launch technique on a .500 tree :p

I've often thought autoX is more challenging,then open track/road race for this reason(above).There is no muscle memory at play,a new feild every day. More about instinct(driving vs. car)b/c of the differences. But I havnt had the pleasure or want to autoX it seems small,low speed.But technical no doubt!
I like the road track enviro.(visually) the high speed turns,melting rubber,fields of cars,**** to avoid(instinct)Learning a track(muscle memory) and pushing it further & further(the envelope) is the challenge.
And on the straights(drag strip equiv) take a 65 degree Left,thats how I look at it,Yeah its different
IMO to put down another racer,drag,autoX,road,ralley,moto whatever is pretty stupid b/c its not the race you prefer,I think all racing is worthy sport and fun whatever floats yer boat. Right Jay ??
:rolleyes: T.

Originally posted by AZ94FORMULA


In the straight sections I can pass them with ease. Only S2000 that could keep me from passing him in the straight sections was a NOS fed S2000. But I eventually passed him on the 3 or 4th lap when he ran out of nitrous

Kurt

Kurt,Is it my understanding you can use nitrous in NASA open track events also??
I've often thought(since I'm cylindrically challenged) that a WOT nitrous kit would do me wonders on the straights(50 shots maybe75) at the track. I havnt checked I just assumed NO,I will check now but if you so feel inclined?
I dont know alot about nitrous!,I was thinking "If I was to get the squirt @ WOT would it wind up so high as to cause a prob. at brake zone" You know still be burning as I'm braking.? Or does it shut down imediatly?
Hmm this could get me over 100 on the front&rear@thunHll.:D :confused:

Topic;I've been beat by a S2000,and a GSR power civic:cry:

I agree 100% that drag racing, including bracket racing, takes skill, but not as much skill as autox. I also find open track events to be a little easier to push the car at, especially if it is a (the) track I have experience on.

Now a well set up automatic car can be pretty easy to drive. I used to have an '87 Formula 350 with a small conveter, drag radials and a good suspension. It was a high 13 second car, but dead consistant. My dad made his first and only pass down the dragstrip in it, and was <.2 seconds slower than I was. When he autocrossed my '98 Z28, he was 8-10 seconds slower than I.

Originally posted by #7
Kurt,Is it my understanding you can use nitrous in NASA open track events also??

It seems that NASA (and just about every racing club) only cares about safety equipment and driver experience. I'm not 100% positive, but I think nitrous is allowed.
I don't have nitrous, I know a little about it, enough to know that you should talk to an expert. If you install it yourself, then find someone who really understands nitrous to help you.

Dave has nitrous on his 383. See if he can answer your questions.
Kurt

Z28RV: I did race stock S2000 on short and twisty track, which could be compared to autocross course. He was stock and I have 310 rwhp. M6 car with upgraded suspension and brakes. We both are not that experienced drivers, I'm probably a bit better. He was running on S-03's and I had m+s rated Falken's - so he had tire advantage. I wasn't able to use any power due to wheelspin, when coming out from turns, so power advantage means nothing. We were almoust even, he managed slightly better lap time (42,684 vs. 42,754). Later we changed the cars and honda was much easier to drive fast compared to my Z - so I think stock vs. stock, equal drivers, honda is probably faster.

Originally posted by AZ94FORMULA
Dave has nitrous on his 383. See if he can answer your questions.

I did it, once, and don't plan on doing it again. I never really figured out what went wrong, but my nitrous solenoid stuck open, and I ran a good 5 seconds of nitous through the motor with no fuel before I got it shut down. It blew molten catalytic converter guts out the tailpipes (onto the hood of the guy behind me), and felt like the throttle had stuck wide open. This was heading into turn 1 at Thunderhill, with an instructor in the passenger's seat, who was about to leap out the window. I suspect the fact that I have a forged bottom end was all that saved the motor.

http://www.go-fast.org/z28/nitrous.html has a writeup under "Solenoid Failure!"

Dave

Thats pretty much what "I was worried about" and know nothin about nitrous. Warning observed,My gut kinda told me all along.It just wasnt right.
BUT for thoughts sake"That very well might of happened at a Drag strip also";) Thanks Kurt&Dave
T.

JEEZ! I've been hearing about this NASA vs. SCCA stuff. They allow NO2 in road racing? That sounds crazy.

i've autocrossed in 2000 and 2001 in Hawaii Region Solo II, and there was a guy and his wife running a basically stock S2000 on Kumhos. His times were usually about 3.5 - 5 seconds faster than his wife. I sometimes beat her in the 94 Z28 on GSCS slicks, but i never came close to beating him.

also, i realize drag racing takes skill, but face it: all you do is launch and shift at the limit for 12-14 seconds. That's it. If you count the amount of decisions an autox or road racer has to make on just one lap (when to lift/brake/turn/get back on...and that's just for 1 turn) it's really mind-boggling compared to the demands on a drag racer. AND the lessons learned in drag racing will NOT save your life in a hairy, real-world situation like being cut off by a truck, or car, or rain, or black ice, etc. Autox and road racing will improve your skills in these real world, life or death situations. try it.

For you dragracing only guys, just think of roadracing as drag racing out a turn, setting yourself another turnin, powering out and drag racing to the next turn.. If your a slow shifter, you just lost time in the straights just like in drag racing...except it can happen over and over again!

True, you can't just slap the gas down and floor it out of a turn. You could do it, but ifyou can get away with that, it most likey means that you got on the gas too late.. Imagine when you loose tracton at the drag strip and you try to feed the most amount of throttle you can without breaking loose/spinning out before you can floor it again.. Its like that in a turn.. your available traction for straight line accel becomes greater the more you straighten out and transfer weight back in the rear.

Ironically, in alotta situations, its faster to go slower into a turn, so then you can set your car up (especially high hp camaro's) to roll back on the gas to WOT as quckly as possible and rocket right out the turn to burn up that nice looooong straight away.. Alotta tracks dedicate thier dragstrip portion as the long straight of the roadcourse!!!!!


Instead of just playing with weight transfer on accel, you get to play with weight transfer accel,deccel, turning, and the combinations of the sorts...

Instead of mounting sticky tire in the back, you mount sticky tire all around!

And top it all off, Camaro's when properly setup and driven, can humble all those expensive fancy cars at "their own game!"

But at the end, just like in dragracing, it all comes down to the driver in extracting the most out of the car.

Originally posted by Ken S
its faster to go slower into a turn, so then you can set your car up (especially high hp camaro's) to roll back on the gas to WOT as quckly as possible and rocket right out the turn to burn up that nice looooong straight away

I certainly agree with that... I went to my first a-cross with the Z last month and I felt like I was ice skating. Every corner seemed like a hairpin and I tended to go in hot and the back would break loose becaue I got on the gas too quick... then I couldn't get back on the gas hard until it pulled back in... which usually was halfway to the next corner.

Disclaimer:I did not read all the other posts.

FS is slower than BS. ESP cars are faster than BS S2000's. I have never seen a SP S2K. Alot very much depends on driver. At most local events BS has no chance with me but that is an ESP car. FS in equal drivers gets beat. ESP vs BS with equal drivers ESP wins.
Personally I am a fan of the S2K. I think they are great cars. But I would never buy one. Co-drive I probably would.

Why get into an argument over this. Autocrossing is harder. Fact. Harder than drag racing harder than open tracking. Put a road racer in a autocross car and see for yourself. Put an autocrosser on a track and see for youself.
I have respect for all. An enthusiast is and enthusiast. If I want to know how to improve power or to build a custom cage to stiffen up the car I know who to ask-drag racers. I went to the M7 event this past weekend. Fast drag cars require skill. Mostly stock.11.5 or slower looks pretty cake.
I would bet a years salary that a drag racer only has no chance with me on an autocross course.

Originally posted by Z28RV
i would like to know if anyone out there has autox'd against a s2000, i would like to challenge my friend to a race and im pretty sure i can beat him, he isnt that good of a driver, i can tell, anyone raced one?

Back to the original question...

I run locally in BS with S2000s. I beat them about 80% of the time and I'm currently leading the class. However, it doesn't require a very good driver to make an S2000 go fast so staying ahead of those little buggers isn't easy.

Why challenge him? Why not just convince him that his car is awesome and that he should come out to an event and have a great time. If you beat him, great!! (Don't ever let him forget it.)

If you lose, he will probably have a blast and thank you profusely for introducing him to such a wonderful sport. Besides, if you become his best friend, maybe he'll let you auto-x the S2000 someday!!

Results (http://www.lscautox.org/2002/Event%207%20(10-12-02)_sum.htm) from an autox this past weekend where I beat both S2000's in attendance as well as 16 of 17 M3's, and another F-body beat me. A modified '98 M3 took FTD, but I was happy with third fastest time of day at a BMW club autox.

Originally posted by chuck
Results (http://www.lscautox.org/2002/Event%207%20(10-12-02)_sum.htm) from an autox this past weekend where I beat both S2000's in attendance as well as 16 of 17 M3's, and another F-body beat me. A modified '98 M3 took FTD, but I was happy with third fastest time of day at a BMW club autox.

Buhahaha! Thats awesome, I would have loved to see the look on their faces when their almighty M3's were beaten by a car costing half as much.

Actually I think both take equal skill on the drivers part, its just that an autocross driver will lose 2-5 sec of the time of a novice, a drag racer will be more like 0.05-.1 seconds or so (plus the car plays a much larger role). So the driver to car % I feel stand correctly, it just the differences between novice and pro is a smaller significant number. Its just different ratios between the two.

--Kevin