Which new car will snag the sales a 2003 Camaro might have

There are 3 cars that are out or are within a month or so of introduction that are priced about where a well optioned Z28 was till "GMed" (noun, meaning: 1) to let wither & die without investment over a period of years. 2) terminate a model line just when it's done right or at it's most popular) the f-body line. Which one do you think will pick up the most customers who would have bought a Camaro or Firebird if available in 2003.

(note, even though these cars are brand new, we were told here by GM reps that this market was dead, and that's why f-bodies were discontinued)

a) Mustang Mach1 about $28,000
b) Lexus(?!) G35 coupe about $28,000
c) Nissan 350Z about $28,000

Originally posted by guionM
There are 3 cars that are out or are within a month or so of introduction that are priced about where a well optioned Z28 was till "GMed" (noun, meaning: 1) to let wither & die without investment over a period of years. 2) terminate a model line just when it's done right or at it's most popular) the f-body line. Which one do you think will pick up the most customers who would have bought a Camaro or Firebird if available in 2003.

(note, even though these cars are brand new, we were told here by GM reps that this market was dead, and that's why f-bodies were discontinued)

a) Mustang Mach1 about $28,000
b) Lexus(?!) G35 coupe about $28,000
c) Nissan 350Z about $28,000

I'd rank them as follows: (as far as snagging sales from Camaro's death)


1) Mach 1
2) 350Z
3) G35

Mustang is going to clean up. I would't be surprised to see them pick up another 20-30K units, thanks to the F-car's demise.

I agree that the Mach 1 would take the cake, so to speak.:)

The other two, seem like a toss up.

Jeff
:cool:

What about the WRX and soon to arrive EVO8? Those that know about turbo AWD cars, this may also take sales from the 3 prior cars.

Originally posted by guionM


a) Mustang Mach1 about $28,000
b) Lexus(?!) G35 coupe about $28,000
c) Nissan 350Z about $28,000

It's Infiniti(?!), not Lexus(?!)... ;)

I'd like to say 350Z, but sales were going to be good regardless. The WRX is going to continue to sell well and so will the Mitsu equivalent, perhaps nabbing a couple would-be Fbody buyers. But you've made a major omission in leaving out V6 alternatives, with the V6 accounting for a large portion of Fbody sales (the Cougar was also in this category and is also being axed). So I would look for bigger numbers in the less performance minded coupes aswell. Cars such as the RSX, Tiburon, Celica, Sebring, Stratus, and V6 Mustang. Those that are brand loyal may go with Grand Ams and Monte Carlos. So I don't think there will be one large benefactor, but more of a dispersion amongst all of the other coupe offerings.

Wouldn't the mach 1 be a limited run?

I think the GT will easily do most of the cleaning up. Why isn't it listed?

The Mustang definately takes it. I know from personal experience. I had a 94 camaro & I totaled it. I ended up getting a 01 v6 Stang instead of a 02 camaro because I couldn't justify spending $20k on a car that was practically the same as my $6k 94. Right now I'm getting my down payment together & I will be purchasing a 03 Mustang GT. I would've got a Z in a heartbeat, but it's not an option anymore :(

FWIW, my brother just bought a WRX and loves it. Personally I can't fathom buying a Ford "Anything."

The new Nissan Z is pretty nice though, or if GM would make a std. cab SS... heck... I'll probably just buy an old Camaro and fix it up. :(

LT1 runner: I have trouble thinking that a person who was going to buy a Camaro would buy small AWD 4 door sedan instead, and vice versa. A front drive Toyota Celica, or an Eclipse maybe. A small sedan, doubtful. :(

jrp4uc: opps! :) I stand corrected. As far as the other cars you mentioned, I didn't state what I was trying to do clearly enough. A Z28 cost about 28K nicely loaded. There are a few cars that are here that have close if not the same performance for about the same price. I was wondering who would benefit the most from Z28's absence, but I said Camaro. My bad. Just the same, the V6ers you mentioned will no doubt get Camaro V6 sales.

350Z for 28K??? I just saw one on a dealer lot on Saturday for 39K...marked up from 35 :confused:

Originally posted by uluz28
350Z for 28K??? I just saw one on a dealer lot on Saturday for 39K...marked up from 35 :confused:

The "coupe" (base model) is $26,269. The "track" is $34,079. There are 3 versions in between that are all under 30 grand. They all have the same engine, so unless you are actually going to compete on the race course, the base model is probally the best value.

More info: http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/details/nissan03350z/

Obviously the M*****g will. People who want musclecars only have 1 choice now.

Hrrm...I'd say that the 'stang will easily snag most of the sales between the 3 although, im not sure why...:think:

Personally, I'd take a 350Z over a GT, or Mach 1; but then again, I'd rather have an '03 Cobra more than any...

back on topic, ahem, it really is a tossup between the g35 and 350z...

on one hand, sports car w/ boring stuff available(luxury), and on the other a luxury sport coupe(2 more seats)...hrrmm...if i must choose one, based on sheer lust i'll go w/ the 350z

as always, all IMO:metal:

Just wondering, does anyone know if the 350Z will get turbo'ed? The 300ZX was and if it is going to be a competitor to the new Cobra and the Mach 1, it's going to need a power boost.

Personally I cannot stand the looks of that 350Z ... Ford will obviously laugh all the way to the bank with the new 25 or 30 K new units they sell, as a direct result of the f-body's disappearance. 350Z will probably meet its modest sales predictions in its own right and probably would've anyway if the F-body was still around, as their market overlap is not really wide. G35 I dunno.. probably same story as 350Z: modest predictions, and ones to be met.

GT

Just a side thought. Sunfire discontinued their sedans for the 2003 model year, and Cavalier sales shot up 90%! With Camaro (and Firebird) out of the picture at the same time sport coupe sales are seeing an increase, is it possible that Mustang sales will top 300,000 cars this year (possibly their biggest year since 1974)?

Originally posted by guionM
With Camaro (and Firebird) out of the picture at the same time sport coupe sales are seeing an increase, is it possible that Mustang sales will top 300,000 cars this year (possibly their biggest year since 1974)?

I hope so, what else could give the F5 project such a boost?:metal: But 300,00 seems a bit fetched...perhaps mid 2xx,xxx

As for 350Z sales, from what I've been told by salesmen, orders are backed up until late Jan. early Feb...:think:

guionM
If people who knew about turbo AWD cars were considering a new Z28, but don't have the option to buy one would go for a WRX or EVO8. Key phrase "those that know about them." I've seen a far amount of dudes that run a Z28 and a DSM or WRX. Then if there's no Z28 around, then it's a no brainer. Too of these turbo heads beat enough mustang (modded or not) guys to not want them. They beat fbodies too, but not as much as they get mustangs. No flaming intended. It's just what happens.

Originally posted by LT1runner
guionM
If people who knew about turbo AWD cars were considering a new Z28, but don't have the option to buy one would go for a WRX or EVO8. Key phrase "those that know about them." I've seen a far amount of dudes that run a Z28 and a DSM or WRX. Then if there's no Z28 around, then it's a no brainer. Too of these turbo heads beat enough mustang (modded or not) guys to not want them. They beat fbodies too, but not as much as they get mustangs. No flaming intended. It's just what happens.

The buyers of the WRX & EVO8 strike me as younger people with a bit of spare cash, while (out here anyway) Z28 buyers tend to be people who are a bit older & treat their cars as toys. Maybe a few cross over, but it doesn't seem to be very many.

As far as WRXs beating Z28s consider this:
LS1 Z28: 0-60/5.2 QM/13.9@107
WRX: 0-60/5.8 QM/14.7@93.1
(both sources are from Car & Driver magazine to keep things fair)

I've already eaten one on the freeway from a 60 mph start with my older LT1 Z, so maybe what you saw were manual shift beginners.

I don't think WRXs are as fast as some people believe. :cool:

Well before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm a fbody guy 1st. Now on with it.

You'll eat these cars in stock form, sure all the time. Just like supras. They aren't that much out of the box. But what a supra or most turbo cars have is the setup. Then you go bigger on this and bigger on that. Next thing you know 20psi, and it's running hard. Now the EVO7 has been scaled down, as so will the evo 8 I imagine. But the EV06 in 95(I think) did 14.1 on dirt and 12.9 on blacktop. Stock car in *** land.

For those that know of the turbo AWD scene may opt for them instead of a mustang. I know I would. I have seen too many guys think because they are spaying a 100 shot they still think they can take over the world. Boost does wonderful things to motors of all sizes.

You should try to get a ride in a serious AWD turbo guys car. It won't turn you or anything, but you'll know more of what I mean. Best case is the GNs. V6 car from the fatory, no big deal. Spend $500-$750 and you well on your way, because they had the initail setup. Turn up the boost, add fuel.

I have 2 words for that: voided warranty!


A couple of years down the line, I'm sure that just like used Hondas, people will hop them up, and I know they are more "mods-friendly" than an LT1 or LS1, but unless you are driving something slower than a pre-1999 Mustang GT, these cars are very overrated. Fast and probally very fun, but still overrated. :p

Dude you're around allot of them over there. Around allot of loud fat cans too. Voided, smoided. Another car that'll have allot of voided warrenties is an 03 cobra. Boost will still go up. All I ask from one car guy to another, if you run into a serious AWD guy (12.9s or better) Ask him for a ride. There are allot more 11sec turbo AWD 4bgrs than you ever thought.

Originally posted by guionM
I have 2 words for that: voided warranty!


A couple of years down the line, I'm sure that just like used Hondas, people will hop them up, and I know they are more "mods-friendly" than an LT1 or LS1, but unless you are driving something slower than a pre-1999 Mustang GT, these cars are very overrated. Fast and probally very fun, but still overrated. :p

BTW, I'm 23 and a poor college student working my way through without any loans..."spare" cash isn't how I describe my purchase. "A lot for my money" does seem to fit.

The WRX is second to only the Mustang GT as fastest new car available under $25,000. And where does 0-60 in under 6.0 seconds and quarter miles in mid-14s come out to be overrated? Make that very overrated??? Throw in solid build quality, good fit and finish, and excellent handly and it is no wonder this car has a good reputation. It is not a car built for stop light to stop light drag racing and clutch dumps. It is a street version of a RALLY CAR. It is a credit to the WRX that is even as close as it is to the Z28 and Mustang considering its not in its element. I had an LT1 Firebird and been around plenty of Z28s (my brother's had 3) and I don't find this car to be a disappointment afterwards. The handling in this car continues to impress me. Is it as fast? No, but it is still a fast car and a blast to drive.

My advice, as when criticizing any car, drive it so you know what you're talking about. :p Or atleast read the article instead of skipping to the numbers at the end... :rolleyes:

Also from C/D. A 10Best selection...
Driving magic can be as hard to define as pornography, but like the man said, "I know it when I see it," and the new Subaru Impreza WRX blinds us with it. Thanks to its turbocharged flat-four engine putting down 227 horsepower, the WRX possesses the boundless energy of a second grader stuffed with chocolate cookies. And the combination of full-time four-wheel drive and a well-tuned suspension endows the WRX with grip to make the most of its power.

Beyond its robust acceleration and roadholding, the WRX delivers the feel we crave in our favorite cars. The steering is delicately light but exceptionally precise. The brakes are firm and linear. The shifter has that deliciously mechanical feel that makes you change gears for the sheer joy of it.
This wonderful hardware is available in two body styles: a four-door sedan and a practical five-door wagon. Both are compact but very roomy and share their styling ?funky or goofy, depending on your age?with the mainstream Impreza models.

But in the end, we could care less how large its headlights are, because everyone who drives this car always gets out with a smile.

You're right, there are alot of fat canned cars here, but pop the hood & you have a completely stock engine. Most every time without exception, it's the 2-3 year old cars being modded out once the 36,000 mile warranty is up.

What I meant by overrated is that there are stories popping up (and not just here) of these cars comming off the showroom, being able to eat Z28s, and almost run with Vettes which is spreading over the internet & on the street. As I said, these cars are fast & fun, and they are aren't many cars that are better performance values.

But the street legend is starting to outstrip reality. Off the line, they're as quick as current Mustang GTs (which despite the sentiment of some is very very quick). But after an 8th of a mile, or on rolling start.....well, you know the rest. :cry:

You know what the WRX is made for, and I respect WRX (and the EVO VII) as such. But there are alot of clueless people who don't. One of them attempted to challenge me on I-5 this weekend. I had to badly spank him. :D If they say it can beat a Z28, and I demolished one with an older less powerful LT1, then yes, the car is becomming a bit overrated.

Not slamming the car, just it's slightly inflated reputation. ;)

Originally posted by guionM
But the street legend is starting to outstrip reality. Off the line, they're as quick as current Mustang GTs (which despite the sentiment of some is very very quick). But after an 8th of a mile, or on rolling start.....well, you know the rest. :cry:

Not slamming the car, just it's slightly inflated reputation. ;)

Oh, I agree. I've raced my brother's '96 Z28 on the highway and he started to pull on me more the closer we got to triple digits. If I had a Z28 or TA, I'd show them up too. :D

I think the problem as far as this "street legend" business goes is the age group this car is popular with. 16 years olds and the like tend to exaggerate the truth a bit. I remember test driving an RSX type-S and having the younger salesman tell me that car could beat a Z28 or Mustang GT. I laughed, "oh really?" "Oh yeah man, V8s suck" was his reply. :rolleyes: If the Z or TA had been updated a bit more, I would have gone with that route. But I wanted something different and the WRX is a nice all-around car. I'll be the first to tell you it is not going to beat a Vette or LS1, and at most catch an LT1 or Mustang GT off guard here or there. So it's not even the reputation that's the problem, just the goofy sh!t teenagers that have no clue as to what's going on that like to talk big.

Now, an STi WRX with the Japanese underrated 276hp might turn in some more attention-grabbing numbers that would back up these kids driving the car on their PlayStation2. ;)

I'll tell which "car" I don't believe will snag potential Camaro sales....even though GM has been telling us for years that they helped kill Camaro.

That "car"would be trucks.

I think LOYAL ponycar enthusiasts will definitely go to the Mustang.
Younger generation performance enthusiasts will go for the "import" cars 'cause "mom and dad had a Honda".
I think the split will be very even - roughly 1/3 each for the models.

1 small detail - the Mustang will have to pick up most sales with the GT and Cobra (mostly GT) because...

The Mach 1 is limited quantity for '03... ony @6000 units, and they are already all ordered. You may find a dealer's order on a lot, but most already have a reserved spot in a garage. And these cars were mostly bought by Mustang-loving people, collectors, etc. - not just a guy in the market for "a" ponycar.
Since the Mach 1 production is fixed (and mostly accounted for), I only see the GT and Cobra coming in with only "demand" as a limitation for MY2003 - therefore competing with the 350Z and Infiniti.

Also, the GT would be a cost advantage over the other two, coming in at $23-$25K, but the Cobra is through the roof at $35K so it's really out of this comparo. The cost advantage of the GT and Ford's commitment to improving the aftermarket for the 4.6 should be the real drive behind GT sales going ballistic for the next year or two.

Just .02 for guesses. :D

Originally posted by ProudPony
The Mach 1 is limited quantity for '03... ony @6000 units, and they are already all ordered. You may find a dealer's order on a lot, but most already have a reserved spot in a garage. ...

:(

The death of the Camaro will actually decrease the size of the performance car market - in this segment, customers are drawn out by individual products, not by an appalling desire to buy "a coupe, any coupe."

To answer the question, the Mustang will benefit from former V6 F-body buyers, but the Corvette will soak up a substantial percentage of the Z28/SS buyers. This is just as well considering that C5 sales are finally starting to sag.

The Infiniti G35 is a welcome surprise, and probably should do well, but the new Z-car borders on peculiar and tacky. Considering the near parity in price and performance, the G35 coupe is the obvious winner. Am I trading my Z28 for one? You got to be kidding.