Was SLP good for the F-body?

Ok, here's a topic loaded with landmines....but what the heck, it's been slow around here lately....so let's see some action!

Personally, I feel Pontiac did a much better job of leveraging their SLP connection than Chevy did.

Good post. :) My answer is no DEFINETLY. I think its stupid that they "needed" SLP (a performance parts company that overprices everything WAY TOO MUCH by the way) to make like 15 more HP, slightly change the appearance, and turn a Z28 (The top model Camaro legend) "into" an "SS" and making the Z28 take 2nd place. :rolleyes: SS?? :bs: Why couldn't GM do it themselves?? Same with the RS. And they should have kept calling it Z28 SS IMO. If anything the SS should have been the 2nd place model sent out and modded into a Z28 or something. And even that would have been stupid. Next time GM, do it all yourselves like it was and like it should be, and get the models right. ;) Keep in mind, for there to be a Camaro, Z28 is nessesary, SS is not. Give it (back) what it deserves.

When I think Chevy performance, those millions of SS cars pale in comparison to the mighty IROC-Z28 :-D Damned third gen Z28 fanatics. Not the world's fault that there's no third gen SS!

Anywho, I don't really think SLP was neccesary. GM could benefit from an internal performance group, like SVT, but I think it weakens their image to have to outsource the SS and such.

Originally posted by MunchE
When I think Chevy performance, those millions of SS cars pale in comparison to the mighty IROC-Z28 :-D Damned third gen Z28 fanatics. Not the world's fault that there's no third gen SS!

Maybe they don't compare in some ways. :) ;) Me being a Third Gen dude though doesn't have much to do with my opinion on the SS thing. If you'll recall, there wasn't much SS in the 2nd Gen either, or in the begining of the 4th. And the 1st and early 2nd, well, the Z28 could take the bigger engined SS and handled better, being IMO the REAL top performance model. The car that became synonomous with and distinctly Camaro and created a history and legend with it. At least the IROC-Z28 was an upgraded Z28 that had real differences from the regular Z28 in engine choice, handling, looks, and performance options. It still upheld and promoted the Z28 name, even when they stopped making the regular Z28 for a few years. And all the work was done by GM. They did it right then. They used to anyway.

Anywho, I don't really think SLP was neccesary. GM could benefit from an internal performance group, like SVT, but I think it weakens their image to have to outsource the SS and such.

Definetly, I agree. But IMO they don't even need any1, just themselves to create performance options, more exciting models, interest, and Anniversary cars and Special Editions that have some kind of special performance AND looks. More than just a looks thing with really little performance differences, if there even are any.

Originally posted by MunchE
When I think Chevy performance, those millions of SS cars pale in comparison to the mighty IROC-Z28 :-D SS and such.

M*I*L*L*I*O*N*S!!!!!!!!!..........


How many millions?!:eek:

I think Pontiac benefitted from it's association with SLP.

When SLP came out with the Firehawk it was good for Firebird and Pontiac immediately capitalized on it by bringing the program in house and giving us a new revitalized WS6 package.

I think when we look back on the 4th gen ,years from now, we will consider the WS6 TAs and Formulas as the definative 4th gens.

Running out of time now, but let's just say that I am far less impressed with the way Chevy handled their SLP connection..........

:rolleyes: OK, please explain how SLP hurt the Camaro again? SLP was only doing what Chevy wanted out of the car. They created a nice looking package, and while some may argue its worth in the grand scheme of things I know of plenty of people who bought SS's and supported SLP and their products. Did you know that SLP puts on annual F-body shows, one of which I attended last year? Complete with drag racing events and nice prizes to the winners. SLP has been very supportive of the F-body community, actual content in their conversions notwithstanding. I guess my point is that perhaps you could argue that they didn't greatly help F-body but I, in no way, see how they hurt it.

And could we PUH-LEASE get off the Z28/SS thing. It's like a newspaper running the same %$#^ editorial every day for the past 6 months. :mad:

I agree w/ Z28Wilson...

I don't see how SLP hurt Camaro... about the only complaint I have heard about SS's compared to any other Camaro is the paint quality on the hood that they install...

And I've only heard that a few times...

continued........


......but suffice it to say that Pontiac used SLP as an effective tool to bring back a pretty nice WS6 package.

They didn't call it the SLP TransAm Esprit...later dropping TransAm from the name and calling it the Firebird Esprit...the"ultimate" Firebird. While at the same time trying to snuff out any image or heritage that Trans Am or Formula might have had for Pontiac.

......I think you guys can guess where I'm going with this.

I think SLP fit more in line with where Pontiac took the Trans Am than with Camaro.

I see Trans Am (and by association, Firebird) as a more flamboyant and upmarket f-body. SLP fit right in with that idea. But Camaro is not and never has been a flamboyant performance car, let alone an expensive one.

To those of you who own SS', don't take this as a slam against you or your cars, but I think that the whole concept of the SS Camaro is misguided from a historical and position standpoint, though both GM and SLP cleaned up financially on that car.

There is no way in creation that the equipment on that car justifies the markup, and the goods that that car does have historically was on the Z28. Hood scoop, low restriction exhaust, suspension geared toward maximum handling, it's all items that should have been Z28.

But also just as important, I question why GM couldn't do all this inhouse. Whenever you go to an outside source for something like this, I may be wrong, but I feel it would tend to make a vehicle more expensive.

Originally posted by Z284ever
continued........


......but suffice it to say that Pontiac used SLP as an effective tool to bring back a pretty nice WS6 package.

They didn't call it the SLP TransAm Esprit...later dropping TransAm from the name and calling it the Firebird Esprit...the"ultimate" Firebird. While at the same time trying to snuff out any image or heritage that Trans Am or Formula might have had for Pontiac.

......I think you guys can guess where I'm going with this.

Chevy would have had to authorize the use of the SS name and logo... so the call on the whole thing wasn't really SLP's... it was Chevy's...

I don't think Chevy or SLP 'tried' to snuff out the heritage of the Z28 name.

Plus it's not the first time... Remember the IROC-Z Z28 (85-87) ? The IROC-Z was a package added to the Z28... that later became the IROC-Z in 88,89 and 90 by itself. Z28 was dropped altogether.



A

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
:rolleyes: OK, please explain how SLP hurt the Camaro again? SLP was only doing what Chevy wanted out of the car. They created a nice looking package, and while some may argue its worth in the grand scheme of things I know of plenty of people who bought SS's and supported SLP and their products. past 6 months. :mad:

Oh..let me make something clear...I'm not putting any blame on SLP. SLP was a supplier who was willing to take the finacial risk of developing an F-body package for GM to sign on to. GOOD FOR THEM!

I'm blaming GM for not capitalizing on it properly for the Camaro....and instead of gaining from it , they went down the path of alienating enthusiasts.

....I could never see Pontiac doing that!

Originally posted by Darth Xed


I don't think Chevy or SLP 'tried' to snuff out the heritage of the Z28 name.



A

Oh no, Darth? Let me tell you, from conversations I had with GM people at the time....I got the opposite impression. Not so much SLP in that regard but certainly Chevy.

If not for a letter writing campaign initiated at the time, the Z/28 might have been history.

The reason I may appear like a newspaper running the same editorial at times (as Z28 WILSON said), is I want Chevy to know that their is a hard core group of enthusiasts out there that hasn't forgotten Camaro's true heritage.....and next time we want them to get it right.:mad:

Originally posted by Z284ever
Oh no, Darth? Let me tell you, from conversations I had with GM people at the time....I got the opposite impression. Not so much SLP in that regard but certainly Chevy.

If not for a letter writing campaign initiated at the time, the Z/28 might have been history.

The reason I may appear like a newspaper running the same editorial at times (as Z28 WILSON said), is I want Chevy to know that their is a hard core group of enthusiasts out there that hasn't forgotten Camaro's true heritage.....and next time we want them to get it right.:mad:

Personally , I think the Z28 name is more inportant to Camaro. I think it is unique to Camaro, and SS runs across many Chevy models.

Z28 has also been a part of Camaro for more model years.

However , to say that Chevy purposefully tried to ruin the Z28 name is really rather silly. They own the Z28 name ... why would you want intentionally try to ruin your own property?! :confused:

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Personally , I think the Z28 name is more inportant to Camaro. I think it is unique to Camaro, and SS runs across many Chevy models.

Z28 has also been a part of Camaro for more model years.

However , to say that Chevy purposefully tried to ruin the Z28 name is really rather silly. They own the Z28 name ... why would you want intentionally try to ruin your own property?! :confused:

They own alot of names Darth.....and have done a poor job of protecting many of them.

Originally posted by Z284ever
They own alot of names Darth.....and have done a poor job of protecting many of them.

Perhaps... in fact, I agree.


BUT... I just don't think they did it (if they did at all... that's obviously open to debate) on purpose .

IMHO, Z24, Z26 and Z34 did more damage to the Z28 name that SS did.

Again, though... I don't think it was on purpose.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Perhaps... in fact, I agree.


BUT... I just don't think they did it (if they did at all... that's obviously open to debate) on purpose .

IMHO, Z24, Z26 and Z34 did more damage to the Z28 name that SS did.

Again, though... I don't think it was on purpose.

OK...maybe it wasn't so much on purpose as it was misguided.

I liken this to the shade tree mechanic who tries to fine tune his multiple carbeuration set-up ( maybe four side-draft Webers in this application).

He wants it to run better...but if you don't know what you are doing, you're better off leaving it alone....you're bound to only screw it up.

Originally posted by Z284ever
OK...maybe it wasn't so much on purpose as it was misguided.

I liken this to the shade tree mechanic who tries to fine tune his multiple carbeuration set-up ( maybe four side-draft Webers in this application).

He wants it to run better...but if you don't know what you are doing, you're better off leaving it alone....you're bound to only screw it up.

Now that , I definately could agree with. :(

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
:
And could we PUH-LEASE get off the Z28/SS thing. :

Noooo, I won't.:p

Originally posted by Z284ever
I think Pontiac benefitted from it's association with SLP.

When SLP came out with the Firehawk it was good for Firebird and Pontiac immediately capitalized on it by bringing the program in house and giving us a new revitalized WS6 package.


SLP Firehawk debuted in '92...Ram Air WS6 in '96. Not quite "immediately"...

The SS Camaro managed to both devalue the Z/28 name to utter insignificance, while dramatically increasing the percieved cost of a V8 camaro- resulting in lower sales overall and decreasing enthusiasm.

It also had the effect of artifically holding the Z/28 back, since they had to justify a $3500 SS package which mostly included stuff that the Z/28 should have had anyway and could have had with little or no extra cost.

And man, they really had to make the Z/28 look like $hit to justify that package. PLAIN JANE. The 2002 Z/28 appearance was the least awe inspiring ever.

Leave the "SemiSport" badge for FWD Cavaliers, Monte Carlos, Impalas, and underpowered "performance" trucks.

I want my Z/28.

Originally posted by jrp4uc
SLP Firehawk debuted in '92...Ram Air WS6 in '96. Not quite "immediately"...

I was referring to the 4th gen Firehawk...not the very limited $50,000 3rd gen Firehawk.

As I sit here reading all this drivel, one thing occurs to me... are people using the SLP/SS debacle as a scapegoat rather than directing their anger at GM for killing the F-body? Ok, so I won't go that far, but if we're going to put things into historical perspective as someone else said, let's go back futher than the last 20-25 years, and actually get history right shall we?

The SS or SuperSport name has long been Chevrolet's high performance end of the line(s). Therefore, there's no way in hell that calling an SLP hopped up Z/28 an "SS" is ever going to "tarnish" the great name of the Z/28. Let us not forget that RPO Z/28 was first created just so GM could qualify the F-bodies to go TransAm racing. There was never any intent for the Z/28 to represent the top end of Camaro performance... although that's what it became in the seventies when GM killed the SuperSport program and any "real" high performance cars due to federal regulations brought on by the oil crisis. Later the Z/28 also fell victim to low performance, low sales and high gas prices.

However, the demand for high performance vehicles didn't die off as everyone expected. The Z/28's short hiatus was soon brought back when GM realized that even a Z/28 in style and name... if not performance... was still marketable. That's why when the technology turned the corner and you actually could build a emissions-firendly high performance car... it didn't take long for GM and others to figure out that these babies would sell.

If anything, the IROC-Z did a lot more to tarnish the image of the Z/28 as unlike where the original Z/28's were not all too far different than the actual TransAm racers, the IROC-Z was initially just a styling package much like the original, and later, RS packaging. (Anyone rememder the special "California Edition" Camaros?) GM was merely using the popularity of the IROC series to help improve sales and marketability. Had it sought the need to do so, i.e. if it proved they could profit off it, they would've called them SuperSports instead.

Turn ahead to the fall of 1995 when GM launches the '96 "SS" Camaros. To be quite honest, there was never huge fan-fare initally, and Chevrolet was just trying to follow Pontiac's successful campaign of their SLP Firehawk version. (Thanks to Pontiac's success, we actually got an SLP Camaro.) Had the IROC series still been using Camaros at the time, I'm sure Chevrolet would have continued on the name of IROC-Z. However, as they couldn't do that, they decided to resurrect the "SS" name that had long stood for the highend performance line of Chevrolet cars.

Anyone that calls the SLP Camaros SS-Z/28 or Z/28-SS is an idiot IMO. While they may share similar characteristics, parts and pieces, there has never been a SS-Z/28 package in the entire history of the line. (Again that historical significance thing.) Granted, while they do share more in common than the original first generation Z/28's and SuperSports, remember this... Chevrolet had to stick a 283 crank in a 327 block to make 302 ci and meet the TransAm 305 max. ci displacement rule. If regulations had allowed 327 ci at the time... RPO Z/28 may have never existed!

As for the original question? I have to agree, Pontiac was much more successful with the SLP package... but that's only because they went into the project with open arms. Chevrolet was forced to jump in less enthusiastically, and only to save performance minded Camaro buyers from jumping over to Pontiac. If and when the F-body returns, let's hope that the high-end models (Z/28, SS, Trans Am, WS6, Firehawk, whatever) have more under the hood (i.e. more displacement and hp) than the entry level (plain Jane) F-bodies.

Ok, now you may flame. ;)

Well jg95z28, I disagree with pretty much everything you just said except that SLP and Pontiac did much better together for the Firebird than Chevrolet and the Camaro. For refutes to your post just read my 1st 2 posts on the 1st page, I don't feel like retyping. :)

Well, I'll say a little. The IROC-Z helped the image of the Z28. Every IROC race car did say CAMARO Z28 on the side you know. The regular Z28 was taken away for a few years but the IROC-Z28 was still there, so its like just the low model Z28 left and the high model stayed. Yes the race cars were really different from the street cars. But, there was justifyable differences for its price increase and its name. The car looked and handled alot better, then in 87 the L98 350 TPI engine was a choice for the IROC-Z only. The differences actually meant something and there were a good amount of them in the suspension especially, and it added to the Z28 names specialness by being an upgraded and better Z28. Unlike the previous SS and Z28, which have almost no differences and made the Z28 look insignificant, which was just not right.

Originally posted by jg95z28



Chevrolet had to stick a 283 crank in a 327 block to make 302 ci and meet the TransAm 305 max. ci displacement rule. If regulations had allowed 327 ci at the time... RPO Z/28 may have never existed!




The original Z/28 was a total performance package designed to beat Ford and Mopar in a road race series.

If Trans Am had allowed 327ci instead of 305ci....believe me ...there still would have been a Z/28....only with 25 more cubic inches.

Originally posted by Z284ever
The original Z/28 was a total performance package designed to beat Ford and Mopar in a road race series.



Are you serious? Aside from the 302 and 4 spd what exactly did the orig. Z/28 have that most the SS 350 Camaro's did not? (Not a whole heck of a lot.)

My point? The difference between a street Z/28 and a street SS was a less than the difference between a street Z/28 and a full race TransAm version.

IZ28,

Let me guess... you're an IROC owner aren't you?

:rolleyes:

Hopefully 1 day I will be, I'm looking for a really specific IROC-Z. Have an RS right now. But it doesn't matter. That doesn't change the way things were and are. You should own an SS if you like them so much. :rolleyes:

You're trying to say an early SS can handle like a Z28?? There were differences. ;)

Originally posted by jg95z28
Are you serious? Aside from the 302 and 4 spd what exactly did the orig. Z/28 have that most the SS 350 Camaro's did not? (Not a whole heck of a lot.)



:rolleyes:
Am I serious???????

Completely serious :death: .

I'll try to be brief.

'67 Z/28 vs '67350SS:

-"Special High Perf" 302...(Too much to list:eek: , do your own research)

-Clutch..."Special" HD 10.34" (later changed to 11")

-Trans....Muncie close ratio ("Rock Crusher") with 2.20 low gear

-Rear Axle ...HD 12 bolt 3.73 ratio standard (up to 4.88 optional)

-Brakes....11" J-56 with 1" thick fiber insulator and two retaining bolts (instead of one), re-machined for Corvette pads (hard racing type)
*Basically designed to live on a race track vs a trip to the grocery store*

-Suspension...."Special" F41 with HD shocks and springs with shot peened studs and radius rod to prevent wheelhop

-Steering....faster ratio

-Wheels...Corvette ralley type


I could go on but my fingers are getting tired...

I trust that you get the point on some of the differences;) .


As Chevy liked to say in the '60s:

"Z/28...Closest Thing To A Corvette Yet!"

:metal:

.....I whole heartedly agree w/ the above!!

The Original intent and design package for the Z/28 was EXACLTY what some of us hope for in the 5th gen version.:D :bow:

This thread's intent (I think) was to ask if SLP doing the performance top of the line model was in fact a good move by GM.......to that I say YES.....it's obvious that SLP was able to give us much more than GM could at the cost point and due to other issues.:) I really don't think anyone faulted GM for "not being able to do it themselves"...of course GM could have done it in house, but it would have taken longer and cost us more in the end......actually GM was doing the base SS models in house a the end.....

Finally, I'll say this one last time :think: I DO NOT want to un-seat the SS as the top of the line Camaro! I simply want the Z/28 to return to being a special model ala the Z06 that gives us a limited option, performance above all else Camaro just like it started life as.:bow: Anyone saying that there wasn't much differnce between an SS and a Z/28:bs: (in the beginning) simply doesn't know much about Camaro history and certianly has never tried restoring a 1st gen Z/28...:Owned:

Originally posted by IZ28
The differences actually meant something and there were a good amount of them in the suspension especially, and it added to the Z28 names specialness by being an upgraded and better Z28. Unlike the previous SS and Z28, which have almost no differences and made the Z28 look insignificant, which was just not right.

Pretty close to my thoughts. Look at how all the current SS owners act towards the Z28 owners. They think they have something that is SO much better. :rolleyes:

Doug, how can SS be a top line model, and Z28 be a special edition?

Unless you are advocating the current Z28 model becoming a sort of Mustang LX, it seems that performance models of both versions will be rather costly, no? :confused:

I am confused as to how anyone can look down on the SS , yet have no ill-feeling toward IROC-Z.

It's the same situation.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I am confused as to how anyone can look down on the SS , yet have no ill-feeling toward IROC-Z.

It's the same situation.

Darth, if I remember right the IROC was available in a more "stripped" package. For instance, you could get the 5.0 instead of the 5.7...but when the switch was made from Z28 to IROC-Z the price of similarily-equipped models did rise, did it not?

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Darth, if I remember right the IROC was available in a more "stripped" package. For instance, you could get the 5.0 instead of the 5.7...but when the switch was made from Z28 to IROC-Z the price of similarily-equipped models did rise, did it not?

I believe everything you say is true...

A lot of people didn't realize though, that the current SS package did not require all the extra stuff to come with it... you could get a 'semi-stripped' SS to a point... not many ordered them that way though.

But, most people who sprung for an SS wanted them to be decked out.

Honestly, with the exception of there being a choice of V8's, the IROC-Z packge is pretty much along the same lines as the SS package of today (well... yesterday I guess now :( )

IROC-Z offered bigger wheels and tires, more agressive suspension, & IROC-Z badges (stickers) among a few other things... that sounds pretty much like today's SS to me , on top of that, SS offers a unique hood, actual functional hood scoop (for what that is worth) , and a unique rear spoiler... all stuff that IROC-Z did not offer in it's package.

Originally posted by guionM
Doug, how can SS be a top line model, and Z28 be a special edition?

Unless you are advocating the current Z28 model becoming a sort of Mustang LX, it seems that performance models of both versions will be rather costly, no? :confused:

As was stated in previous threads....the SS can still be top of the line by having many more options..i.e. leather, t-tops, power options (but Scott already said they can't afford to be designing power and non-power things like windows)...top dog does not have to mean top performer.

Scott has also told me that engine options wouls also be limited due to $$ concerns...personally the only HP differences we might get would be due to more performance oriented air filter and exhaust systems.

The Z/28 we envision would forgo many luxury and performance compromising options and would include upgraded suspension (that would possibly not be liked by the SS owner, due to stiffness), upgraded brakes, louder (free flowing) exhaust (within limits of course), cold air intakes (w/o sound constraints), 6 speed only, upgraded (to more supportive in race conditions) seating, different hood (if $$ allows), larger tire / wheel combo....etc....

Let's be honest, the average SS owner would not want to loose many of the luxury options and a slightly softer ride, t-tops, etc...

Again, we envision a niche car that would return the Z/28 to the historic and mystical place it started as.

Obviously there needs to be a V8 Camaro, but as from the 1st gen thru the 3rd, there was always a base V8 car.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I am confused as to how anyone can look down on the SS , yet have no ill-feeling toward IROC-Z.

It's the same situation.

There are similarities in some regards....except from '85 - '87, IROCs were Z/28s with Z28 emblems on the exterior and interior.


Even in '88-'90 when there was no "official" Z/28.....Z28 emblems appeared on the dashboard of IROCs.

And of course the Z/28 returned in '91.

I can't say I was pleased with that whole IROC name thing....but at least the Z/28 lineage was all over it.

With the (new) SS...Chevy made a concerted effort to devalue the Z/28, it's lineage and it's history.


.......Shame on them.......

I personally feel they did a great job with the SS and the firehawk. The only problem they had was with the paint on the hood chipping very easily.

I hope if the Camaro does come out again I hope the SS remains on top. :)

Guys, maybe I went a little over the edge, however, forgive me because I'm old. ;) Yes, I know the orig. Z/28 had bigger brakes, rock crusher 4 spd, suspension mods etc, that did not come on the SuperSport, etc.

My point, which I obviously failed to eloquently present, was that although the street Z/28 was a special hopped up race car, it still needed many more modifications before it was track ready to run in the TransAm series, and therefore was still close in concept to the street SS's. Initially my intent was to point out that the SS has always stood for the high end of performance, the RS a trim/style package and the Z/28 a special edition model... just as Doug said.

I also would like to clear one thing up. I meant no disrespect to any Camaro owners. I love all Camaros regardless of their flavor. Personally I prefer the big block V8's of the first gen, but all of them have a special place in my heart. If I upset anyone, I'd like to appologize.

As it is I currently drive a Z/28. I'm still pissed off that had I waited just two months I could have ordered a 6spd SS, but then back in the summer-fall of 1995, there wasn't a lot of information out there about SLP making a special edition car for Camaro fans. I was very near to buying a Pontiac to get the SLP package, however, my undying love for Camaros prevented me from doing so. (Its a personal perference thing going back to my youth which I can't explain.)

Anyways, as all of you, I'm still pissed GM killed the F-body. However until they bring it back into production I'll stick with what I got and look for a '68 RS/SS to restore in the meantime.

Thanks for understanding a feeble "old man".

Originally posted by jg95z28
Guys, maybe I went a little over the edge, however, forgive me because I'm old. ;) .



All forgiven.:)

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
As was stated in previous threads....the SS can still be top of the line by having many more options..i.e. leather, t-tops, power options (but Scott already said they can't afford to be designing power and non-power things like windows)...top dog does not have to mean top performer.

Scott has also told me that engine options wouls also be limited due to $$ concerns...personally the only HP differences we might get would be due to more performance oriented air filter and exhaust systems.

The Z/28 we envision would forgo many luxury and performance compromising options and would include upgraded suspension (that would possibly not be liked by the SS owner, due to stiffness), upgraded brakes, louder (free flowing) exhaust (within limits of course), cold air intakes (w/o sound constraints), 6 speed only, upgraded (to more supportive in race conditions) seating, different hood (if $$ allows), larger tire / wheel combo....etc....

Let's be honest, the average SS owner would not want to loose many of the luxury options and a slightly softer ride, t-tops, etc...

Again, we envision a niche car that would return the Z/28 to the historic and mystical place it started as.

Obviously there needs to be a V8 Camaro, but as from the 1st gen thru the 3rd, there was always a base V8 car.

So the SS would be a sort of luxury edition much like the old LT & RS Camaros of the 70's, Z28 would be the 'track racer", and the base model would have a full line (both V6 & V8) of engines with just breathing differences? :think:

If that's what you are saying, seems like a pretty good idea. Base Camaro with just the V8 option (if GM can avoid putting it with a mandatory package), and visit Chevy's parts counter for custom upgrades (if you want more power, or more handling).

In my world the SS would stand as is. The Z28 would have the LS6, stiffer still suspension, hardtop only, cloth only, six speed only. An RS would have a basic LS1 and ride friendly suspension with a long list of comfort options. The V6 car would be available with any and all creature comforts. I , of course, would then opt for the Z28. I picked a Formula over a Trans Am for its lack of ground effects and its cloth interior. The Iroc name was a bad idea, but a pretty cool car. SLP gave the F - body the kick in the pants it needed, GM failed to give it the exposure and customer relations it needed.

Well off the original topic , other then both GM and Slp could uses some time in creating a better quality paint job. Ill start with I own 2 4th gen SS's currently , and yes some of the stuff slp added is more looks then function .. Id say if you took a ss optioned same as z28 other then the obvious hood and rear spoiler and a z28 and gave 50 people the choice of which one they would take I believe most would take the SS. I respect all camaro heritage Ive had 15 so far from 67 to 2002 and and all have + and - . But haveing had all types I think gm has it right base 6 , z28 and SS . and everthing that would be avail to the z28 would also be avail on the SS and then the SS would have a few extra (options) that the z28 would not outsourced or not.... my 2 cents

Anytime you have a way to get publicity by making a commemerative car its a good idea. Especially 1 that made for real differences over the regular Z28 as the IROC did. ;) Z28 should always be all around Camaro top performance just as the 1st-early 4th Gen Z28's/IROC-Z28's.

Some people are saying that they would like to see the SS as the quick luxury Camaro and the Z28 as the top performing street/track Camaro as its always been or has always been capable of. Well, I've been saying that for months!! I'm glad more people are seeing it that way. The only exception is I would make the Z28 available with an Auto also, people will want it and it will increase sales. Maybe already modified for manual shifting?! :D

IMO the SS should have just been called an SLP Z28 or something like that for those who want to compare it to the IROC option. Even though the IROC-Z offered a different engine, gears, axle, and noticable visual differences unlike the SS all done by GM. (really its not that easy to even tell a 4th Z28 and SS apart at a glance) The SLP Z28, it would have been that simple. Once again being an upgraded, better Z28, not taking a name from way back and throwing it on something that is doesn't belong on. ;)

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
As was stated in previous threads....the SS can still be top of the line by having many more options..i.e. leather, t-tops, power options (but Scott already said they can't afford to be designing power and non-power things like windows)...top dog does not have to mean top performer.

Scott has also told me that engine options wouls also be limited due to $$ concerns...personally the only HP differences we might get would be due to more performance oriented air filter and exhaust systems.

The Z/28 we envision would forgo many luxury and performance compromising options and would include upgraded suspension (that would possibly not be liked by the SS owner, due to stiffness), upgraded brakes, louder (free flowing) exhaust (within limits of course), cold air intakes (w/o sound constraints), 6 speed only, upgraded (to more supportive in race conditions) seating, different hood (if $$ allows), larger tire / wheel combo....etc....

Let's be honest, the average SS owner would not want to loose many of the luxury options and a slightly softer ride, t-tops, etc...

Again, we envision a niche car that would return the Z/28 to the historic and mystical place it started as.

Obviously there needs to be a V8 Camaro, but as from the 1st gen thru the 3rd, there was always a base V8 car.


Doug, I could be quite content with such a line-up......all models would be desirable within their own specific niche and be clearly deliniated.....and I would get my Z/28!


The problem I see, is this ....could there be a chance in he!! that GM would have the focus, commitment, the respect for heritage and the understanding of the Camaro enthusiast (and potential enthusiast ) and history to pull that off.

Their recent history demonstrates some inadequacy in that regard.

It would be great if they could succeed with such a line-up, something for everyone........but at the end of the day....what I really want is
MY Z/28!

Once the fifth gen comes out in like 2007 Chevy will probably stick with the formula for the fourth gens.

1)SS-The flagship model for Camaro, with all the options the z/28 has plus some extras.
2)Z-28
3)V-6

I think SLP did a great job and without them we wouldn't have the SS for the fourth gen.

With the way Chevrolet is going in the next few years the SS model marks it as a step above the normal models of the Impala, Monte Carlo, and especially Camaro.:D

The days of the Z28 being a better performer than a SS are over.

Even the Fbodfather says the Camaro SS model is a car illustrating the heritage and history of the Camaro in the 2002 Sales Brochure.:bow:


-----------------------------------------
1998 Black SS #1723 Hurst M6
!CAGS
MTI Lid w/K@N, NGK TR-55(@.059)
GMMG Chambered Exhaust

Originally posted by IZ28
Some people are saying that they would like to see the SS as the quick luxury Camaro and the Z28 as the top performing street/track Camaro as its always been or has always been capable of. Well, I've been saying that for months!! I'm glad more people are seeing it that way.

GM won't make the Z28 faster.:rolleyes:

That can definetly change. :) ;) Guess what, the 4th Gens entire formula wasn't liked and didn't work. I really doubt it will be the same, REALLY. I certainly hope so.

Originally posted by IZ28
IMO the SS should have just been called an SLP Z28 or something like that for those who want to compare it to the IROC option. Even though the IROC-Z offered a different engine, gears, axle, and noticable visual differences unlike the SS all done by GM. (really its not that easy to even tell a 4th Z28 and SS apart at a glance) The SLP Z28, it would have been that simple. Once again being an upgraded, better Z28, not taking a name from way back and throwing it on something that is doesn't belong on. ;)

It's actually quite easy to tell a SS and a Z28 apart.:think:

SLP Z28 sounds kind of gay to me!:eek:

Glad SLP used the SS name and it fits quite well.;)

Originally posted by IZ28
That can definetly change. :) ;) Guess what, the 4th Gens entire formula wasn't liked and didn't work. I really doubt it will be the same, REALLY. I certainly hope so.

The way the cars were setup (V6,Z28,SS) didn't hurt them, but the design was becoming dated by 2002 and no support from GM $$ didn't help.:death:

GM wanted out of St.Therese and if it meant killing the F-Body, so be it!:dead:

The formula of the 4th gen Camaro will remain, but the car will look different!

I know the formula will be the same because Fbodfather is the Camaro Product Manager and working on the 5th gen.:cool::metal:

It doesn't actually, whatever. You're a Z28 turned into an "SS" owner so you're gonna say what you have to. But an upgraded Z28 with an SLP option would have been cool/cooler. And I didn't say it had to be called that, maybe something along those lines. Yeah, they're REAL easy to tell apart on the street. :rolleyes:

Yes it did, it definetly helped lower sales. And he just might have to change if he wants a 5th Gen to be a success. It can't be what he or the other people in GM want, it has to be what the buyers want. They have to start realizing that again because apparently they didn't before.

Originally posted by IZ28
It doesn't actually, whatever. You're a Z28 turned into an "SS" owner so you're gonna say what you have to. But an upgraded Z28 with an SLP option would have been cool/cooler. And I didn't say it had to be called that, maybe something along those lines. Yeah, they're REAL easy to tell apart on the street. :rolleyes:

SS=Z28 with SLP options. That is what they have had since 1998 when GM made SLP's SS a factory option code (WU8).

I have a Z28 and a SS, but usually I call it just a SS.;)

When you see the two cars on the street you can tell the SS apart from the Z28 by the hoodscoop, different spoiler, larger wheels and the SS badges.:D

Originally posted by IZ28
Yes it did, it definetly helped lower sales. And he just might have to change if he wants a 5th Gen to be a success. It can't be what he or the other people in GM want, it has to be what the buyers want. They have to start realizing that again because apparently they didn't before.

In 2002 there were 11,191 SS's and 13,614 Z28's made, so how did the SS bring down sales they're both Camaro's aren't they?::confused:

The Camaro will be more what the focus groups and the stockholders want more than the buyers.:think:

The SS helped lower sales of the Z28, which is all the 3rd Gen Twins really seem to care about.

They think the Z28 should be the best coolest top performing model, put a 6 in the SS because I don't care about it, my 3rd gen was a Z28 and I love it!

Then we get pretty contrived stories "the horsepower figures on the old Z28 were obviously wayyyy underrated, so it's got more horsepower than the SS by my math!" about how the first gen Z28 was the top model that everyone cared about.

Everyone likes to buy aftermarket SS badges for their old Camaro/El Camino/Chevelle....a lot of people will make thier car an SS clone.

How many people make a Z28 clone? You go to car shows and see a lot of Camaro SS's, not a lot of Z28s. And you know the SS's aren't all real. The last time I mentioned this I got a "if someone buys a Z28 they check if it's real!!!!" answer, completely missing my point.

The Z28 was never the most popular first gen, the only reason the SS name was ever dropped was because Chevy dropped performance as a whole. By the time it came back, the Z28 name had a pretty good rep from being the ONLY choice for most of the 2nd gen and all of the 3rd gen, so they stuck with it.

I'm just sick of the 3rd Gen Twins turning every thread into "GM NEEDS TO GET RID OF THAT CRAPPY SS AND BRING BACK THE Z28 TO IT'S RIGHTFUL THRONE, LIKE IT WAS IN 1987! AND BRING BACK THE IROC!" They're as comical as the guys who keep saying "GM needs to bring back the Fiero, it was the best car every for this this this and this reason!"

Except the 3rd Gen Twins are more persistant.

Originally posted by MunchE


I'm just sick of the 3rd Gen Twins turning every thread into "GM NEEDS TO GET RID OF THAT CRAPPY SS AND BRING BACK THE Z28 TO IT'S RIGHTFUL THRONE, LIKE IT WAS IN 1987! AND BRING BACK THE IROC!" They're as comical as the guys who keep saying "GM needs to bring back the Fiero, it was the best car every for this this this and this reason!"

Except the 3rd Gen Twins are more persistant.

Heheh... ;)

Maybe we'll have a "Bring back the Berlinetta and Type LT" campaign going soon... ;) :p :o

...to keep from being suffocated by the dust coming off the dead horse we're beating to a pulp here :rolleyes: :death: :dead:

Read this slowly if you don't have good comprehension skills....

I DO NOT want to see the SS dethroned as top of the line Camaro......period. I want a specifically optioned model designated as the Z/28 with the directive of Performance above all else No frills, No compromises.:bow:

You can have a base car w/ V6 and (maybe) V8 power.......you can have the SS as the top of the line optioned car w/ all the frills........but GIVE ME MY Z/28 ala the Z06 and life will return to normal. :metal:

This constant spatting over the SS vs Z/28 is counter-productive and just plain wrong...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
..........but GIVE ME MY Z/28 ala the Z06 and life will return to normal. :metal:



AMEN!

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
Read this slowly if you don't have good comprehension skills....

I DO NOT want to see the SS dethroned as top of the line Camaro......period. I want a specifically optioned model designated as the Z/28 with the directive of Performance above all else No frills, No compromises.:bow:


The car you want would be a 4th gen Z28 1LE.;)

Originally posted by MunchE
The SS helped lower sales of the Z28, which is all the 3rd Gen Twins really seem to care about.

They think the Z28 should be the best coolest top performing model, put a 6 in the SS because I don't care about it, my 3rd gen was a Z28 and I love it!

Then we get pretty contrived stories "the horsepower figures on the old Z28 were obviously wayyyy underrated, so it's got more horsepower than the SS by my math!" about how the first gen Z28 was the top model that everyone cared about.

Everyone likes to buy aftermarket SS badges for their old Camaro/El Camino/Chevelle....a lot of people will make thier car an SS clone.

How many people make a Z28 clone? You go to car shows and see a lot of Camaro SS's, not a lot of Z28s. And you know the SS's aren't all real. The last time I mentioned this I got a "if someone buys a Z28 they check if it's real!!!!" answer, completely missing my point.

The Z28 was never the most popular first gen, the only reason the SS name was ever dropped was because Chevy dropped performance as a whole. By the time it came back, the Z28 name had a pretty good rep from being the ONLY choice for most of the 2nd gen and all of the 3rd gen, so they stuck with it.

I'm just sick of the 3rd Gen Twins turning every thread into "GM NEEDS TO GET RID OF THAT CRAPPY SS AND BRING BACK THE Z28 TO IT'S RIGHTFUL THRONE, LIKE IT WAS IN 1987! AND BRING BACK THE IROC!" They're as comical as the guys who keep saying "GM needs to bring back the Fiero, it was the best car every for this this this and this reason!"

Except the 3rd Gen Twins are more persistant.


MunchE, I recommend de-caff.


BTW...I've been meaning to tell you, I like your Cougar. A classmate of mine drove his same color , all original, '68 Cougar all the way from Merced CA, to go to school here in Chicago.

What a cool car that was!

Well this SS vs Z28 will never die , I for one am glad the z/28 guys are as vocal as they are , and us SS guys are just as proud/vocal. it shows we all care for our fbodys , my consern is that (other then a few) GM really doesent care what WE(z/28,SS together) want. I know Gm does car opinion surveys, the constantly are getting people in my area to look at multiple design cars and give feedback , but thats the man/woman on the street. for a enthusist Car like camaro , you really should hear what the common folks wnat but also get some true Fbody fools to voice thier opinion as well so MAYBE we can both be happy a car joe customer would like and satisfy you proformance guys. I just hope the 5th gen is a major improvement, I love both my 4th gens and dont want a bigger 4 seater that looks more like a maxima then a hugger.

again my 2 cents

I forget. Did we answer the original question: "Was SLP good for the F-body?" or did this just turn into The Great Z/28 vs. SS debate?

FWIW, I want high-performance. Call it Z/28, SS, IROC, etc. I really don't care. There was a time when Z/28 meant factory racer. That was eventually morphed into special edition performance package, and then the SS became the "hopped-up" version of that.

Just bring back the F-body and call it whatever, I really don't care as long as I get a high performance 5th Gen Camaro.

I think SLP really didn't do much for F-body on a performance or handling standpoint. But boy, they sure did make a great Z28 hood. :p

Originally posted by guionM
I think SLP really didn't do much for F-body on a performance or handling standpoint. But boy, they sure did make a great Z28 hood. :p

:D :D :D

Originally posted by Z284ever
MunchE, I recommend de-caff.


BTW...I've been meaning to tell you, I like your Cougar. A classmate of mine drove his same color , all original, '68 Cougar all the way from Merced CA, to go to school here in Chicago.

What a cool car that was!

Same color? My car is ugly multi-primer colored!

It's a hard one to match down at the paint store. ;)

Thanks, btw.

Also, I live on the caffiene, please don't take my lifeblood away from me! :(

Yeah, its just because I like the Third Gen the best that I like the Z28 the best. Nope. Never seen a some1 make a 1st Gen base car a Z28?? You don't get out enough.

Z28 is the most liked and known Camaro, SS is not. Z28=CAMARO, SS=almost all Chevy's. Z28=sporty image, SS=FWD V6, or cars with overpriced options that usually make like no difference. Z28=best all around performer of the 1st Gen, SS=is not. Z28=Camaro legend, SS=a legend on other Chevy's from way back that deserved the name, but not on Camaro. Z28=a car that won races on the tracks against many competitiors, SS=a car that couldn't take the Z28 on any type of track. Z28=the name with the Camaro through every Gen and the most popular, SS=a name that was left behind since the early 2nd Gen until the later 4th. I wanna say too that the 02 35th Anniversary SHOULD have been a Z28, but not with the 4th Gen SS around. :rolleyes:

If you wanna get technical, a 4th gen SS is a Z28.

In order to get an SS, you have to order a Z28, and option it with the SS performace and appearance package...

Right ont he window sticker... it says it's a Z28 ;)

Exactly. And thats what it should be called.

Originally posted by MunchE
Same color? My car is ugly multi-primer colored!



Is that primer...I thought it was light blue:o

Originally posted by cobraeater
Even the Fbodfather says the Camaro SS model is a car illustrating the heritage and history of the Camaro in the 2002 Sales Brochure.:bow:


-----------------------------------------
1998 Black SS #1723 Hurst M6
!CAGS
MTI Lid w/K@N, NGK TR-55(@.059)
GMMG Chambered Exhaust

He also rarely passes up the chance to mention that it's his initials as well. SS as top model because of a personal bias toward that car? :think:

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
...to keep from being suffocated by the dust coming off the dead horse we're beating to a pulp here :rolleyes: :death: :dead:

Read this slowly if you don't have good comprehension skills....

I DO NOT want to see the SS dethroned as top of the line Camaro......period. I want a specifically optioned model designated as the Z/28 with the directive of Performance above all else No frills, No compromises.:bow:

You can have a base car w/ V6 and (maybe) V8 power.......you can have the SS as the top of the line optioned car w/ all the frills........but GIVE ME MY Z/28 ala the Z06 and life will return to normal. :metal:

This constant spatting over the SS vs Z/28 is counter-productive and just plain wrong...:rolleyes:

This really isn't a big issue anyway. Z28 does need to become a no frills racer. A base model with a Z06 engine & brakes is the more I think about it, an excellent idea! :D

I mean, all an SS is anyway is a Z28 in drag. :p ;)

Originally posted by guionM
He also rarely passes up the chance to mention that it's his initials as well. SS as top model because of a personal bias toward that car? :think: :eek:

Originally posted by guionM
He also rarely passes up the chance to mention that it's his initials as well. SS as top model because of a personal bias toward that car? :think:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I just want the F-body to come back:alert: :cry:

Originally posted by Darth Xed
If you wanna get technical, a 4th gen SS is a Z28.

In order to get an SS, you have to order a Z28, and option it with the SS performace and appearance package...

Right ont he window sticker... it says it's a Z28 ;)

I like it!

Kind of a two for one deal.;)

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
...to keep from being suffocated by the dust coming off the dead horse we're beating to a pulp here :rolleyes: :death: :dead:

Read this slowly if you don't have good comprehension skills....

I DO NOT want to see the SS dethroned as top of the line Camaro......period. I want a specifically optioned model designated as the Z/28 with the directive of Performance above all else No frills, No compromises.:bow:

You can have a base car w/ V6 and (maybe) V8 power.......you can have the SS as the top of the line optioned car w/ all the frills........but GIVE ME MY Z/28 ala the Z06 and life will return to normal. :metal:

This constant spatting over the SS vs Z/28 is counter-productive and just plain wrong...:rolleyes:

Well said, I agree 100%. This babble about how the SS ( along with 4th gen in general, but that's another story) sucked and nobody liked it is really getting old. Doug's formula matches what I would like to see in the 5th-gen completely. We should have both the SS and the Z/28. Both cars served an important role in Camaro's history, and thus deserve to have a part in the future. Neither should be devalued or tarnished. They can be unique models designed to serve different purposes for different buyer. Why can't we ( the Camaro community) join together and fight for what is really important.... a 5th gen Camaro.

-Mike

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
...to keep from being suffocated by the dust coming off the dead horse we're beating to a pulp here :rolleyes: :death: :dead:

Read this slowly if you don't have good comprehension skills....

I DO NOT want to see the SS dethroned as top of the line Camaro......period. I want a specifically optioned model designated as the Z/28 with the directive of Performance above all else No frills, No compromises.:bow:

You can have a base car w/ V6 and (maybe) V8 power.......you can have the SS as the top of the line optioned car w/ all the frills........but GIVE ME MY Z/28 ala the Z06 and life will return to normal. :metal:

This constant spatting over the SS vs Z/28 is counter-productive and just plain wrong...:rolleyes:


Right on the money!

As for not seeing any 1st gen Z/28 clones, how many 67-69 Camaros do you see with the two stripes running down the hood and trunk of the car? Guess what? Those rally stripes were a Z/28-only option. So in a way, they try to mimic the Z/28 alot.

Here's what I get out of this thread and others like it.

People love the Z/28 and it's mystique, and will accept no substitute!

So if I were a product planner at GM....I think that I would do my darnedest to tap into that enthusiasm (rather than try to extinguish it),and really go with it, and give the customers what they want.....and what we want is A REAL Z/28!!!!!

I want my Z/28 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the Z28 looks like ass. The Camaro NEEDS the scoop and wing, to make it look nice. I don't like the hood on a Z28 at all. same with the tail end. I know I'm probably getting ripped off on the SS package but I don't care. The exhaust and suspension are nice additions as well, not to mention the tires/wheels.

Aneurysm...two things:

1. You are right.

2. You have completely missed the point.

I admit to not reading any of this post, except for the last page. As for the pissing contest over Z28 vs SS, they both have their place. Whether one stands over the other means nothing to me...does the SS make more sense as the top dog? Indeed it does. It was offered less, but when it was, it was the top dog, period.

As for SLP, SLP was awesome, period. I have 10 Firehawk customers this year who will agree. I am sorry to see for '03, all they have to offer as a factory converted car is a stripe and loud exhaust package on a pickup truck...what a fall from grace :(

Originally posted by Jason E
I admit to not reading any of this post, except for the last page

Well...then you missed the secret code on page 3 that entitles you to $1,000.;)

Yeah, and the sense we made and facts presented. :)