PLEASE help!! 2nd trans in 2 weeks!! What is wrong??

OK, I just rebuilt my trans with what I thought were some of the best parts possible to hold up to my upcoming turbo engine. Something is not working out here. PLEASE let me know what I need to do to make this trans live!!

Right now, I am fairly stock engine wise (K&N LS1 cold air, Borla exhaust, all free mods, reprogrammed PCM) and I have now scrapped 2 transmissions in the last 2 weeks. The first one I could understand because the guy that had it before me had abused it quite a bit (broke front planetary). But the second one, here is what I had done:

Art Carr Super input drum
Art Carr super sun shell
Kevlar band
Upgraded 3-4 clutch pack
Fairbanks billet servo
Vigilante 3200 stall
Accumulators ELIMINATED (is this bad??)
Not sure what else.

About the only thing I did no do is upgrade to 5 pinion front and rear planets.

Could someone tell me what the heck I need to do to make this thing hold?? If it can't hang with this nearly stock engine, there is NO way it will be able to even consider living behind my turbo engine.

Any suggestions on trans tables (tunercat) is greatly appreciated along with anything I need to do additionally or I need to un-do in the trans. This is my daily driver that I commute back and forth to work with so I can't afford any downtime!!

I am sorry if this is so obvious it doesn't need to be stated. But the answer is: tear the broken transmission apart and see what broke!

Rich Krause

Well, yes, that goes without saying. I took it apart 2 weeks ago to see what broke. It was the front planetary. Put it back together and it still isn't right......

BUT, what I am trying to figure out is what I need to do different so I don't have to "tear it apart and see what broke" every week or 2. I want to build a trans that will live so I would like to hear some suggestions from some of the advanced tech guys as to what I can do to make my 4L60E live. No, I don't want a TH400 as I have 3.42 gears and do drive fast for extended periods (30-50 miles straight) and take regular trips of 300+ miles. I really don't want to switch to a 6 speed anymore as I just swapped my 6 speed conversion for this lemon.

Any one that has experience with these and sees something wrong with the build, please let me know. IF you need to know more, ask. I am more than happy to give any information that may help get this thing living more than 500-1000 miles at a time!! If it helps any, it seems a little slow going into reverse as it takes 4-5 seconds before you feel it engage.

Ryan

I will ask my buddy to take a look at this and give you a shout he has been dealing with the 60e's for a while and having good luck. Have you thought of a 4l80e? Use the tci trans controller for it ?
I just dont think these tranys can hold up to the power alot are thowing at them.
Steven

Some thoughts:

torque converter not fully seated into pump,

torque converter and/or flex plate balance problem,

a check ball forgotten, or fell out of place during install of valve body.........

Just trying to brainstorm.......

Why remove the accumulators?

The trans seemed to shift perfect up until the point of destruction.

His reasoning for eliminating the accumulators was to quicken up the shifts. Think about it: People put washers under the spring in the accumulator. Why? To keep the accumulator from absorbing so much of the pressure during the shift. With the accumulators removed, this thing shifts just as quickly as my manual valve bodied TCI trans. I just don't know if I should put them back on or what.

Ryan

Iv'e had simular problems last dyno run 633 r.w.h.p.
ended up sending trans to "Chuck" at performance transmission in Naperville IL. He has a Presure modulator that replaces P.C. Sol. in transmission. I dont think the trans shift times can be changed w/o programing. In stock form the line pressures are directly controled by the pcm via pulse width modulation of the P.C. Sol.

First Transmission 480 r.w.h.p. lived a little over 100 miles. that trans was built by 18 year vet. trans tech. replaced major parts and upgraded W/best possible parts. this trans smoked 2/3 clutches and nuked drum/sun.

Second Tramsmission same h.p. same parts just replaced clutches drum and sun etc. purchaced hypertech programer to change tire size as tech stated tire size changed shift times. WRONG. Trans grenaded 10 miles from Ubly raceway died on the
flat. trans had the "same failure"

Third trans same h.p. (Chuck built trans.) pounded the **** out of it for 7500 - 8500 miles w/o incident. NOTE just went from 10 psi to D-1 @15 psi
trans died passing a 900 ninja. Pump failure.

I now have the fourth trans ( this is the last one before lenco) I am researching editing factory pcm or upgrading to a trans controller.

John

Wait, neither of you guys that have destroyed multiple tranny's has a tranny cooler? Hell I need one and I only make 300 hp. My tranny is about to detonate.

Get a tranny cooler and eliminate overheating of your tranny as a problem.

Actually, I do have a trans cooler. I am sure he does too. Mine is the biggest they had in stock and is supposed to be good enought for an RV pulling a huge trailer.....

I am able to edit my trans pressure tables and shift points with TunerCat so that is not an issue.

Any more ideas??

Ryan

It' s obvious from this and many other threads that the 4L60 is simply not up to high-po buildups. If my T-56 takes a crap on me I will either give up racing the car or get something strong enough to handle the load. Most likely a G-Force 5-speed. If I wanted an automatic I'd get a TH400 and be done with it rather than trying to make the 4L60 do what it just isn't capable of.

Just IMHO.

Rich Krause

Originally posted by rskrause
It' s obvious from this and many other threads that the 4L60 is simply not up to high-po buildups...........with it rather than trying to make the 4L60 do what it just isn't capable of.

I trust you actually believe what you just posted. You don't believe there is more to it than just 'throwing' in parts, like HOW the trans is assembled possibly making a difference? Not all trans builders are equal, let alone someone with different skills professionally, doing the trans mods. Building/modifying a trans is a skill in it's own rite.

Maybe I should clarify my driving habits and the sheer power output of my car:

1. I drive my car fairly mildly. I don't do big smoky burnouts, I don't launch the car, I leave the car in drive to let the PCM do the shifting for me!! Out of 10 of my friends, only one may baby their car more than me.

2. My car is nearly BONE STOCK. If stock transmissions are lasting 100k plus, why can't this built one last for 1000 miles????

I now have this weird feeling the only reason the guy swapped me this trans is because it was a total POS. When I got it, it only had about 700 miles and it only lasted about another 700 before death. This is with street tires; I don't run slicks or any of that. This trans was only built so it would be done when I did get around to my turbo install!!

Originally posted by arnie
I trust you actually believe what you just posted. You don't believe there is more to it than just 'throwing' in parts, like HOW the trans is assembled possibly making a difference? Not all trans builders are equal, let alone someone with different skills professionally, doing the trans mods. Building/modifying a trans is a skill in it's own rite.

Arnie: why would I say it if I didn't believe it :confused:?

But of course you are right, it's like motors I'd guess (I am no auto tranny expert by any means) there must be a lot of important subtleties to building a tranny. But it seems that breaking the 4L60 is extremely common. So much so that it appears to be simply a "weak" transmission relative to high-po use in a 4th gen.

Now, given Ryan's last post re: his driving habits and mods you are making an excellent point. It does sound as though whoever built his tranny screwed up. So my comments probably do not apply to his circumstances and yours are likely more on point.

Rich Krause

I'll find out on Monday what it really is but I talked to my trans guy today and he thinks the input sprag is jumping teeth or whatever it has. He did not replace it on my last rebuild and said that it could have gotten fatigued when my front planetary went. He used to work for GM Powertrain so he knows his way around a 700 and 4L60E. He has built numerous ones for friends that are holding just great; some of these guys are in the 10 and 11 second regions, too. I think maybe I just started with a trans that had the life beat out of it and I am finding all the weak parts now.....

I'd still LOVE to talk to an LT1 Edit or Tunercat person that has had good experience with making a 4L60E live. I know there are lots of 11 second cars that aren't having problems; mine is WAY slower...

Thanks for your help guys.





Ryan

I have a setting point I start with. I posted it many times here and on the LT1 edit list.

See if you can find it by running a search on both of those ;)

Well, I did a search on what you told people to set the trans tables at and here is what I found:

1. what ever you do make sure you program the PCM for your mods so the transmission can live

And here's another good one:

2. Guys if you have not seen me post on this before it could be news to you. Your PCM has the power to kill your transmission in one pass If it is not programed correctly.

The moment you start changing the power out put of your car the PCM needs to be reprogrammed to match or it has no chance in hell to live.

Many early failures were related to the installation of a larger throttle body. This throws the entire power input curve off and the transmission has no chance to live.

You MUST program for power!

Oh, wait, THIS must be it!!

3. As far as making his trans live it will all be in his skill's. Parts selection helps but if you put them together crappy you wasted your time. Then he will need to learn how to use a tuning aid like LT1 Edit or TunerCats. Because no matter what parts you put in it if you do not program it CORRECTLY you are wasting your time.




Sorry, Ellis, but this is about all I can find that you have posted. I can't find a way to import any of the above into my transmission tables and make them work. Maybe I'm just reading wrong??????

Ryan

first off

:confused: who is your trans builder?

second

you need to know what is borken not guess or think you know
have your builder put a broken part in your handz and axe-plaine it to you

third

ever think about callin :bow: Chuck at FLP?

Notes:

IMHO any 4l60e that is going to live behind a turbo LT1 NEEDZ at least $2200's in parts tossed at it and some qualitly labor or dont even expect it to live. See below Then it needs to be tested and installed programmed loged and reprogramed. Adding the TransGo Vacuum modulator 46-MOD is a must as well as a trans cooler with the GVW cap for a aircraft carrier.

Looky

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tunedbytad/images/4l60Ebuild.jpg

While I don't have any "technical" input, I can share my experience, which was similar to yours.

I bought my Z28 about a year and a half ago with 99k miles on it. I knew that any LT1 car that had that kind of mileage was going to need trans attention sooner or later. During my test drive, the trans shifted firmly and quickly, and hit all the gears like it should, so I figured it had been rebuilt before. I drove the car like that for about a month, and one day I hit it from about 35mph, and the engine free wheeled.

I checked with a lot of local transmission shops, and I finally decided on a place that seemed knowledgeable and supposedly had 700R4/4L60Es in 11 and 12 second cars, so I figured it would be fine for my bone stock LT1. To make a long story short, after about 4 attempts and (cumulatively) several weeks' time, I realized the transmission just wasn't going to stay together, even in my bone stock LT1 car. I ended up getting my money back from the guy (he was cool about it), and brought the car to the dealer for a SRTA.

Anyway, just my rambling...you aren't the only person who has had problems keeping a rebuild together behind a basically stock car. Good luck!

first off

who is your trans builder?*** Larry at CS Transmission. His career was working at GM Powertrain so he knows these transmissions like the back of his hand.

second

you need to know what is borken not guess or think you know
have your builder put a broken part in your handz and axe-plaine it to you*** We'll find out tomorrow for sure what is bad. However, I trust his judgement in saying the front sprag failed. He recently diagnosed a car over the phone as having a bad rear planet. he was right on the money.

third

ever think about callin Chuck at FLP? *** I tried to contact Dana at Pro-Built as recommended by another member and I guess I was just wasting his time. I e mailed instead of calling so he could get back to me at his leisure without compromising a customer elsewhere. Never heard back. Now I'm nervous about calling anyone else as I figure they'll have the same attitude.


Notes:

IMHO any 4l60e that is going to live behind a turbo LT1 NEEDZ at least $2200's in parts tossed at it and some qualitly labor or dont even expect it to live. See below Then it needs to be tested and installed programmed loged and reprogramed. Adding the TransGo Vacuum modulator 46-MOD is a must as well as a trans cooler with the GVW cap for a aircraft carrier.*** OK. I think I have all the parts you have pictured in that minus one or two. Here is what I have in mine: Art Carr Super Input Drum, Art Carr Super Sun Shell, Kevlar band, upgraded 3-4 clutch pack with blue clutches, upgraded pump, upgraded pump slide spring, new soft parts elsewhere in trans. Only parts that are from the previous trans are: Rear planet, sprags, valve body, input and output shaft. The valve body has been upgraded and the accumulators were removed because he said that would give a quicker shift. The shifts are not harsh, just quick like a manual valve body trans is.

This post might be helpful. A user 12SCNDZ said he could put together a "bulletproof" 4l60e for $800. I believe somewhere in the post he has a list of all parts needed.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6132

BTW I'm curious..in your sig you have "Vortech" listed, but you keep saying your car is "near BONE STOCK" from my simple understanding a Vortech would add a few ponies and hardly qualifing your car as near bone stock. Anyways check out the post it might help.

The Vortech is not installed on the engine. The only mods right now are cold air, exhaust and PCM tune.

New engine, however, will have a TurboTech kit with a T76..... That's why I want to get this thing to live; because it's getting ready to have a little harder life.