5th gen engine choices

I've been preaching in other threads that gm should bring back the 302 for the next z28. The debate continues so i decided to start a thread that deals with the 5th gens engine choices. No interior packages, wheel choices, just engines.

I believe that the base camaro should get the same 3.6l 255hp v6 that comes in the cadillac cts. It has ohc, vvt, and is small, powerful and efficient. I don't think that a base camaro should get one of the high value v6's. Let's face it that the camaro is a premium car, not an economy car. As a premium car it should get a premium engine. There is no better v6 for the camaro than the cts's.

Since basically all of gm's v8's are built either off the ls1/ls6 or northstar architecture, their is no reason that gm can't offer two v8's in a camaro. The 4.8,5.3,5.7 and 6.0 are built off the ls1 architecture. The ss should get the bigger v8 such as the 5.7 or 6.0 depending on what the base c6 gets. I'd say 350-370 hp should be enough. I know the cobra is going over 400 but ford is clearly aiming that car at the vette. The z28 should get a different v8 than the ss. I stated in other threads that gm needs to differentiate the two cars.

I don't see how they can't offer two v8's if the engines themselves are built off the same architecture. They all have the same motor mounts, computers (different programming of course). I don't see how it can be more expensive to offer two different engine choices if they have so many components in common. The only thing that they differ in is displacement.

Gm can build a 302ci ls1. They did it. I remember reading in motortrend a year or two ago about how they built a 302 and stuffed it into a f4 z28. Somebody needs to dig that article up for us PLEASE!

I like the idea, it brings a little history and legecy back to the Camaro. I would like to see the Z/28 with a 302 and the SS with a 396. Maybe offer a 350 as an option for a happy medium. I also want to see the old style displacemnt embles on the sides of the cars, I have some 350 ones on the side of my Z and it looks so good!

read about the 302 (http://www.camaroz28.com/articles/302camaro/index.shtml)

Thank you magnum force.

:usa:

:rolleyes:

We all live in the past too much on this board sometimes.

Unless it is off the shelf, it will not be used. The 302 doesn't exist in the current LSx architecture. It will not exist in the GenIV form either. We have to imagine a 5th gen without any extra money put in for engine research.

Should we also gripe now since the 5.7L will be replaced by the 6.0L too?

The original Z/28 used 302 ci because the maximum displacement for TransAm racing was 5.0 L. In 1970 that was changed to 5.7 L, so the 350 ci. replaced the 302. (They needed 500 cars min. produced with this engine to qualify.)

Chevrolet is not longer in Trans Am racing.

The next gen Top Dawg Camaro should be given at least the same displacement as the entry level C6 corvette... which has been rumored to be a stroked LSx 406 ci V8.

Its also quite possible that by the time the Camaro actually returns, the Vette will be using the new Gen IV engine with DoD.

Furthermore, since Holden has been using 427 ci LSx blocks and recently an LS6 racing block was stroked out to 450+ ci, I don't think we should be limiting the next gen SuperCamaro to only 6.0L.

350-370 HP? I'm sorry but most Camaro enthusiasts are expecting at least 100HP more than that.

I also have a problem with the Cobra vs. Corvette concept. Others have stated that the Corvette is the Cobras target, however I disagree with that. Ford's supercar is the GT. And while it is much more expensive the Chevrolet's supercar, the Z06 Corvette; the Z06 is clearly the Ford GT's competition.

Ford's competition for the entry level Corvette is the T-bird. If the T-bird had a little more HP and was priced more competitively, maybe it could have done better in sales.

So, the Mustang Cobra really has no competition in this point in time. However, the next gen Super Camaro will certainly be it. If Chevrolet wants the new Camaro to be successful.... they most certainly will build it to beat out the Cobra.

There is no friggin way that the vette and the tbird are in the same league.

There is no friggin way that the top camaro is going to have over 400 hp as well as an engine displacement over 400ci.

Ford themselves said that they are aiming at the vette with the next cobra.

I'd be a 3 motor advocate.

Base 6 - 240 ~ 260 HP & Torque
Small V8 - either the 4.8L or 5.3L 250 ~ 300 HP 300 ~ 350 Torque c/w DoD and tuned for regular gas.
Big V8 - 6.0L - 350 -~400 HP & TQ - No DoD, tuned for performance with more of an eye to the aftermarket for enhancements. This one could be a fairly expensive option limited to say 10% of total Camaro production. Available only on the "SS" by Pacers defination and "Track Pack".

Going back to the original equipment listing I'd make the base V8 standard on the SS.

The 302 is a neat heritage idea, and Concept 302 is my favorite 4th Gen ...just ask RP ;) but adding a motor derivative for nostalgia reasons doesn't seem feasible.

Wasn't the original 302 arrived at by throwing off the shelf parts, 283 crank (3" stroke) and 327/350 block (4" bore), together?

As I understand it, the reason why another engine isn't offered is not because of anything to do with another motor, but rather getting it certified. Every engine (even if it's mostly the same thing) must be certified for emissions and crash worthiness, etc. Thats why the ls6 never made it into the f body as say a special edition, even though its the same displacement as the ls1. They would have had to crash test it which costs money.

Not that I wouldn't like a smaller v8. I loved my old tbi formula (and my current base 85 with 4 bbl) because I couldn't afford tuned port.

Originally posted by Jackass
I've been preaching in other threads that gm should bring back the 302 for the next z28.

You will not find a bigger Z/28 enthusiast than myself....but a 302 for a 5th gen Z/28 IS NOT on my wish list.

There is absolutely no reason for it.....I just don't see the point.

The 302 was designed to homologate Camaro for the under 5.0L rule in SCCA'a Trans Am road race series, (just like the Mustang BOSS 302). That is the only significance this displacement carries.

In 1970, when the SCCA relaxed the rules and allowed de-stroking, the Z/28 got the 350CID LT-1.
Mopar also used it's 340 CID AAR 'Cuda and T/A Challenger in the series...they were also de-stroked for racing. Even Pontiac, de-stroked it's 400 to 303 ci .

Returning to a 302 has about as much appeal to me as rear drum brakes and steel wheels. A 5th gen Camaro does not need to be constrained by a rule from the Trans Am series which was rescinded over 33 years ago. For me...it's just silly.

I'm looking for the spirit of Z/28.....not a recreation of a 1st gen Camaro.

I'll take the 6.0 LS2.

Originally posted by Jackass
.... There is no friggin way that the top camaro is going to have over 400 hp as well as an engine displacement over 400ci. ...I'll take that bet! ;)

As I have said before I am not a big fan of DoD, but anyway...

I think a 302 would be nice to have to differenate between the Z/28 and SS. I would perfer a bigger engine, but a 302 would be kinda cool.

Anyone that loves modern V8 powered performance cars should love DoD.

DoD will allow us to have high horsepower mega displacement modern powerplants that are not classified by the Federal Gov't as "gas guzzlers".

DoD will allow us to race it on Sunday, and commute to work with it on Monday, not having to worry if gasoline is $2.50/gal.

Do not fear technology my friend.... embrace it, as it is what saved modern day musclecars in the past, and it is what will allow us to continue to have modern day musclecars in the future.

:D

P.S. The 302 is dead. (It should only remain in "real" 67-69 Z/28's)

Originally posted by jg95z28


DoD will allow us to have high horsepower mega displacement modern powerplants that are not classified by the Federal Gov't as "gas guzzlers".


Then how can it be a "real" muscle car:p j/k.

The first version sucked and until they prvoe that this a MUCH better version, I will not even think about it. I know, I live in the past a little, but I gotta stay with normal pushrod V8s. DoD is just not my cup of tea. I like all the power all the time, even if it means I pay a little more for gas. I don't deny that DoD may be the wave of the futrue but, like I said before, I live in the past a little.

BTW, I only like the idea of a 302 because it would add a little "flavor" to the 5th gen. I love how the 1st gens had so many engine choices.

Originally posted by Got-LT1
DoD is just not my cup of tea. I like all the power all the time, even if it means I pay a little more for gas. I don't deny that DoD may be the wave of the futrue but, like I said before, I live in the past a little.

I give the aftermarket 30 days and they'll have a method of shutting that sucker down permanent-like, just like CAGS.

True, I didn't think of that, but wouldn't it negate the purpose? I mean so what if you have a DoD 454 that only runs as a 454 or a "normal" 454?

Originally posted by Got-LT1
True, I didn't think of that, but wouldn't it negate the purpose? I mean so what if you have a DoD 454 that only runs as a 454 or a "normal" 454? Unless you're going WOT with your foot planted on the floor all the time, there really is not need for the extra four cylinders once you get it up to cruising speed.

You're begining to sound like the same caveman mentality that was used when fuel injection was first introduced on modern f-bodies and folks were crying about how far superior carburetors were and they would never accept a fuel injected musclecar.

Trust the engineers. They're smarter than you think. ;)

Originally posted by Got-LT1
As I have said before I am not a big fan of DoD, but anyway...

How many GM DoD cars have you driven?

I expect the F5 to use a 6.0L V8 since rumor has it the 5.7L displacement is going to die.

maybe they will build a 5.3L version of the LS6 @ 370HP

I'd be shocked if the HF DOHC V6 found a home in the base 5th gen. A more likely canidate is the upcoming 3.9L 60* V6.

As for V8s, I would expect two different power ratings of the upcoming LS2 with the same displacement.

Originally posted by poSSum
I'd be a 3 motor advocate.

Base 6 - 240 ~ 260 HP & Torque
Small V8 - either the 4.8L or 5.3L 250 ~ 300 HP 300 ~ 350 Torque c/w DoD and tuned for regular gas.
Big V8 - 6.0L - 350 -~400 HP & TQ - No DoD, tuned for performance with more of an eye to the aftermarket for enhancements. This one could be a fairly expensive option limited to say 10% of total Camaro production. Available only on the "SS" by Pacers defination and "Track Pack".

isnt the 6.0 like 366 c.i.?

Originally posted by Z28x
How many GM DoD cars have you driven?

None, but that dosen't mean I can't like the idea. ;)

jg95z28: I do like advances in cars, however I just don't like the idea of DoD, maybe once it comes out and I try it I'll change my mind but until then I just don't like the idea. Most of my drivng is in a ruel area, and I manage to get red lights a lot, so I do a lot of accelerating, that's why I like to always have the power.

Anyway, carbs aren't THAT bad, but fuel injection is a lot better in a street car.

Yes the Chevy 302 shares a 4.00" bore with the 327 and 350. It is destroked to 3.00" which works out to 302 cid.

Incidentally the Ford "5.0" has exactly the same cylinder dimensions, which works out to be 4.9488 liters. Not 5.0.

I doubt GM would destroke an LS1 to 302 cid. Cool as it'd be, it would cost money to develop and would make less power than a 346, due to less displacement. (Hopefully) they're smart enough not to spend R&D money making weaker versions of existing engines.

Originally posted by Z284ever
You will not find a bigger Z/28 enthusiast than myself....

Don't think so?! :D

But I do agree with your post. While it would be cool, it's not really smart. The Z28 should be as we've discussed so many times before. 2 top models with 2 different purposes. (Z28 and SS) I just want every Camaro model to be the absolute best it can be, everything done to the max, even the base car, which should come with or have a really incredible stereo optional. ;)

Originally posted by Got-LT1
None, but that dosen't mean I can't like the idea. ;)

jg95z28: I do like advances in cars, however I just don't like the idea of DoD, maybe once it comes out and I try it I'll change my mind but until then I just don't like the idea. Most of my drivng is in a ruel area, and I manage to get red lights a lot, so I do a lot of accelerating, that's why I like to always have the power.

Anyway, carbs aren't THAT bad, but fuel injection is a lot better in a street car.

when you accelerate or start from a stop you will have all 8 cyl. From what I've read it will mostly just kick in when your crusing when you step on the gas the other cylinders kick in. THe shift from 8 to 4 to 8 cyl. is said to be so smooth that you can't even tell DoD id there, hopfully this is all true.

I threw the 302 out there as a idea. They can put the 4.8 or 5.3 in it and i'd be fine with it. I understand the emissions and crash test certification points.

I just think it would be cool to have three engine displacements in three trim levels.

Originally posted by Z28x
when you accelerate or start from a stop you will have all 8 cyl. From what I've read it will mostly just kick in when your crusing when you step on the gas the other cylinders kick in. THe shift from 8 to 4 to 8 cyl. is said to be so smooth that you can't even tell DoD id there, hopfully this is all true.

There was a test drive published a while back on the system. Through a 10 mile course the system activated/deactivated cylinders at least 100 times, I'm thinking closer to 150 though. The writers said that if it was not for a light telling them the cylinders had deactivated then they would not have been able to tell at all. It was seamless apparently.

My opinion:

6.0 V8 400hp
5.3 V8 300hp
3.8 S/C V6 260hp

5.3L almost equals 327cid for those of you that like that stuff...

Originally posted by steves
My opinion:

6.0 V8 400hp
5.3 V8 300hp
3.8 S/C V6 260hp

THe 3.8 S/C V6 should put out 300HP if they can get a good transmission to go with it.

The 4L65E can take anything a 300hp S/C 3800 can throw at it in stock form.

Originally posted by AdioSS
5.3L almost equals 327cid for those of you that like that stuff... Actually I think its 325 cid. :D

I dont see the idea with all the engine combinations.. even if they are derived.. it will make a platform more expensive...

Gm should put the smaller displacement v8 on smaller, lighter cars... a 4.8 v8 on a 2400 pound car with 300rwhp...

A z06 with 2800lbs with full tank of gas and 500HP

I think the camaro corvette difference should be: weight and like the 2001 vs 2002 z06..