Why are there so many fast turbo stangs but not f-body's

It's interesting to see how far the blue oval guys have taken turbo technology. With small cubes and big turbos, they've gotten their cars down into the 6.4s. Even the import boys have turned to turbos to run some serious numbers. My question is, why do you not see many real fast turbo gm cars? The GNs were hot for a while but I don't see many of those anymore. I don't want this to be a flame I'm just making an observation.

Well, a Mustang is much lighter, so it's a better place to start for a race car. Second, there are a lot more of them overall and many more turbo race setups. The GM's are just not as good a platform for a street cat to morph into a race car. I have a buddy with 5.0 that weighs 3,175lbs and it still has a full interior, etc. It goes nearly a second faster than a comparable 4th gen with the same rwhp.

Rich Krause

Not to mention there is zero room in an Fbody engine bay

I don't think weight is the only thing, most likely not even the main reason. To generalize greatly, lets say that Mustang has 280 RWHP, it should run a low 13, maybe a high 12, depending on traction. Take a six speed Camaro, (which most aren't), give it 280 RWHP, (which most dont have) and you've got a mid to low 13 second car, again, depending on traction.
I think the MAIN reason is that Ford did it right back in 87. Especially 88 though, the 5.0 was tough to beat. With minor mods, a 5.0 would walk all over any F-body, or vette. Only a GN could compete. The fourth gen F-body changed that with the LT1, but it was too little, too late, and packaged horribly.
Also, the 5.0 Mustang, while EFI, is nothing more than the same 302 thats been used for what, 30 years? All Ford did was slap a manifold with injectors on it instead of a carb. Not so with the LT1s. Yeah, it has a lot in common with an SBC, but there is no conventional distributor, no common head swaps, etc. New stuff scares people, so the LT1 didn't get modded as fast. Hell, I know guys with 5.0s that run mid to low 11s, and don't know what tuning is, besides fuel pressure and base timing. A chip? That's something you eat.
Packaging has a lot to do with it as well. My friend can do headgaskets on his mustang in 3 hours give or take a half hour. Try that in a 4thgen. Not gonna happen. I don't see the truth in the 45 minute optispark pros there are here though, so maybe there are some miracle workers. Anywho, everything is easier to get to in a fox body, heck even an SN95 has plenty of room.
The last reason is simply production. When the 5.0 came out, they were selling over 200K a year. 200,000 x 7 years of basically the same car, thats alot of market. 4th gens have barely broken 70K, so there is some discrepancy.

To add fuel to the fire, what it costs for a decent rear end in an 4th gen will buy you a 5.0L Mustang:D

And, IMHO, those 8.8" rears are as good as 12-bolts - which cost us $2K+:)

[QUOTE]
[B]

All the reasons the guys above said. Plus you can get one for so cheap. Also mustangs come with a better starting platform, like 8.8 rear ends, and forged pistons up until the early 90's I think. The stock suspension seems to be better for drag racing to . Look at all the 8 and even a few 7second cars i think, with stock suspensions. How many stock suspension ( tourque arm) fbodies have run in the 8's. Heck there are only enough to count on one hand running 8's now, and they JUST GOT THERE this year. They are just getting into the 8s this year, and the 4 th gen has been out for over 10 years now. And for those who say "well it takes a while to sort out the suspension" ... 10 years is a long time .

PLUS it'sctually 20 plus years , because the 3rd gen is the same car basically with a different skin.

Don't get me wrong I ( and probably most who posted above) am an fbody guy , but we are just giving realistic reasons. (I do like seeing turbo stangs or anything turbocharged and fast run though.) I personally am willing to do what it takes with my Trans AM to go as fast as I want it to go.... but it usually cost more. For many who want a good starting platform, and to go fast for a lot less.... the Mustang appeals to them. Then there are those like some of us hear who will do what it takes to the fbody. Things are changing.

Another one of the main things, is the Aftermarket, It just OVERFLOWS for the mustang. Look at all the turbo kits they have. I can't even name them all anymore. How many have you seen for the fbody, whether it be 3rd or 4th gen. There are not many. It's hard to run a turbo fbody , if there are no kits. And even the DO it yourself turbo guys for the mustang are alot more numerous. Look at all the room under the hood. You could take a guy who does not have the greatest automotive talent in the world, and he could just turn a pair of shorties upside down,............bend, buy, or have some of the hoses and tubing bent, and have a twin turbo set up , and still easilly have room for A/C. LOL Look under our hoods.

Most do it yourselfers probably won't be making turbos for their 3rd and especilly 4 th gen fbods. ( There are a few like Jordan, and Guido though, but still no where near the number of mustang do it yourself guys). They are so numerous, they even have turbo DIY list and web pages. LOL

Those are some very interesting and informative answers and points guys. But the way I see it, when building a racecar, everything is pretty much stripped out anyway. I've seen f-body cars with pretty much everything removed from around the motor and there seems to be ample room to install turbos. I know the car does sit a bit lower than the fox platforms but anything can be made to work. I noticed also that most of the turbo stangs are running smaller cubic inch motors. Wouldn't the extra cubes we have help make power? This whole thing is just strange to me because I thought the lt1 and especially the ls1, was a far better platform than the 5.0 liter from the factory. I understand the higher compression isn't boost friendly but a change in pistons or massaging of the chambers should solve that. I have seen quite a few blowers on the lt1s but as stated before, 9 second cars are far and few between.Let's not even talk about 8s. Just recently, Joe Overton took his lt1 into the 9s, N/A. Impressive, but it's taken 10 years? Within a year of its introduction, the ls1s have been whipping the lt1s around here mercilessly. I have considered getting one myself but have decided to give my ole steed another go at it before I put it out to pasture.

Not to mention, Mustangs have sanctioned, Highly organized race events that promote the need to find power and get it to the ground. Let's face it, unlike the Mustang field, our F-body field is largely drawn up of enthusiasts, not racers.

:)

Steve

Not to mention, Mustangs have sanctioned, Highly organized race events that promote the need to find power and get it to the ground. Let's face it, unlike the Mustang field, our F-body field is largely drawn up of enthusiasts, not racers.

DING DING DING We have our winner. The only people who are spending money on fbodies going fast with turbos are NMCA racers and soem OSCA racers. There is some sick fast turbo fbodies out there. If the money is brought to the table and centered a series around the fbodies (won't happen) the turbo kits and blower kits will start falling off the tree's. What i see now myself though is the only people who are spending serious cash on turbo setups on the fbody platform are the ones who like turbos and like fbodies.

Not to mention there is zero room in an Fbody engine bay
I am not a believer in the fbody is a horrible platform like some people think. The engine bay is HUGE if some clever thinking is used (gotta think out of the box rather than stuck in what others do) I was able to fit proper turbo headers, turbos, wastegates, 2 intercoolers, rad, all my other garbage under the hood and still have room. Plus this is with 3.5-4" downpipes. You can make anything fit if you take your time and get creative though. I have twin turbos on a ls1 setup now and it has a large air-air intercooler and full ps, a/c etc.. in the car. Look at LJ's car he has a bigish blower in his car a large intercooler and it all works. It just takes someone to see all the stuff on the top and not go ARGHHH no it can't be done.

I know of min of 10 fbodies with serious power plants in them (blower or turbo) and are serious contenders. Seems the thumpers and bbc's are coming to be very popular.

This whole thing is just strange to me because I thought the lt1 and especially the ls1, was a far better platform than the 5.0 liter from the factory

LS1 platform is a serious starter if you then start to look at c5r bottom ends etc.. I personally like the smaller motors of the stang boys that is one of my reasons for choosing a smaller motor in my car (big bore small stroke). Why didn't I choose to use a lt1 cause they are limiting my wants and needs, plus after machining and main caps etc.. it really doesn't pay to use the block unless you don't have money for better heads etc..

When you are talking about the cars in the 6.4's and such those are full custom setups might be a shell convertered but there is some fbodies working their way down to those numbers using similar chassis setups. They are not running a stock block, heads suspension etc.. The one that amazes me is Job Spetters old car that he sold now that was a work of art how fast he went on a small tire with a relitively stock suspension.

How many stock suspension ( tourque arm) fbodies have run in the 8's. Heck there are only enough to count on one hand running 8's now, and they JUST GOT THERE this year.
You are right most have just gotten there this year but nobody has overcame Neverlift Motorsports 3rd gen torque arm suspension car went something sick like 8.40's 10 years ago. granted it was a 3rd gen but basic same thing.

Steven

Thank you! :)
Great post!

Lawrence Conley has a pretty serious twin turbo F-body.....

http://www.tweaked2.com

:D

Originally posted by zturbo


I am not a believer in the fbody is a horrible platform like some people think. The engine bay is HUGE if some clever thinking is used (gotta think out of the box rather than stuck in what others do) I was able to fit proper turbo headers, turbos, wastegates, 2 intercoolers, rad, all my other garbage under the hood and still have room. Plus this is with 3.5-4" downpipes. You can make anything fit if you take your time and get creative though. I have twin turbos on a ls1 setup now and it has a large air-air intercooler and full ps, a/c etc.. in the car. Look at LJ's car he has a bigish blower in his car a large intercooler and it all works. It just takes someone to see all the stuff on the top and not go ARGHHH no it can't be done.








Steven


Very true. Somtimes when I am around people and I pop my hood or the hood of an fbody is popped, I often hear "man I would hate too work on that car" or there is not room. Granted there does not at first appear to be as much available room , and it's not as easy to just throw things under the hood like a mustang. Like you say, you just have to think and be willing to "put in work". Which agian many are not doing , or willing to do, because like somone above said , MANY Fbody guys are enthuseist not racers as much as the mustang guys. The engine bay is actually quite Large. ( You just have to SEE IT. lol)
It is really roomy for those guys that have removed their accesories. They should have no problem running what they want, but I guess the turbo issue boils down to the enthusiest vs racer thing again.

I oftenook under the hood, and figure out where to put or relocate stuff. I decided where I will put 2 turbos awhile back, (If I go that route.) but most people just DON'T see it. Like you say they look and think it's impossible. Once they see that Accesory bracket , all those wires, air pump, tubes etc. They decide to run nitrous. LOL

It seems like one of the problems is that many of those people that look under our hoods and think it can't be done, and make those comments, or "fear" working on these cars, are some of the fbody owners themselves.

Im working on it.

Care to send some sponsor $$$??

You guys are pretty much right about everything. Mustangs are light, plentiful, easy to work on, lots of space, cheap to come by, and the aftermarket is huge for them. The basic body hasn't changed much since '79 when the fox came out. That's a lot of years for people to try this or try that. The 302 itself is relatively unchanged since the 289 in '64. Again, that's a lot of years for backyard mechanics to get to know what works.

Over at Turbomustangs.com, we greatly appreciate all the nice things you guys have said about our favorite car [tear]. We're all big fans of the F-bodies as well. Your LS1's (RIP) have been hard to compete with over the last few years.

Originally posted by Rpm280


It seems like one of the problems is that many of those people that look under our hoods and think it can't be done, and make those comments, or "fear" working on these cars, are some of the fbody owners themselves.

Please. At least Texans work on their own cars. I can count on one hand the 4th gen "enthusiasts" in SoCal that turn their own wrenches. Pretty pathetic:rolleyes: "Where can I go to get my cat-back installed?"

Just drop in the "Western Members" board on LS1.com sometime and witness the "My shop's better than your shop" threads:rolleyes:

Wow! Turbostangs looks like a great site. :)
Out of curiousity, where are they talking about us?

Steve

Here:

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4995

Originally posted by Jim S. '95 Z28
Please. At least Texans work on their own cars. I can count on one hand the 4th gen "enthusiasts" in SoCal that turn their own wrenches. Pretty pathetic:rolleyes: "Where can I go to get my cat-back installed?"

Just drop in the "Western Members" board on LS1.com sometime and witness the "My shop's better than your shop" threads:rolleyes:

Just because I work on my car doesn't mean I fix it correctly. Is your window really supposed to roll down when you put the transmission in reverse?

:D

Originally posted by 96-speed
Just because I work on my car doesn't mean I fix it correctly. Is your window really supposed to roll down when you put the transmission in reverse?

:D

:eek:

What you got there is a little wiring problem Ryan.;)

-Mindgame

Originally posted by big dave
It's interesting to see how far the blue oval guys have taken turbo technology. With small cubes and big turbos, they've gotten their cars down into the 6.4s.

6.4's? Try faster :cool:

But yes, you are absolutely correct. In fact, the modular (96+) turbo industry is booming! There are tons of turbo modulars running around out there and THEY ARE FAST! You'll just have to watch out. A stock GT with a little turbo on it will make 400rwhp and 500rwtq @ 8 psi. Note, I said -little- turbo...not a t-76 ;)

-Adam

Originally posted by Jim S. '95 Z28
Please. At least Texans work on their own cars. I can count on one hand the 4th gen "enthusiasts" in SoCal that turn their own wrenches. Pretty pathetic:rolleyes: "Where can I go to get my cat-back installed?"

Just drop in the "Western Members" board on LS1.com sometime and witness the "My shop's better than your shop" threads:rolleyes:
I agree. You can't consider yourself a real enthusiast if you don't turn your own wrench on anything.

Before I had this car, I had not turned a wrench. I had no clue what I was doing when it came to anything. I still don't. I do however do all my own work and just installed a cam. Now I need a new opti. lol.

As far as the turboing of cars goes, the Msutang's market is so much bigger and they do have more racers. I LOVE the aftermarket for Stangs but along with it comes the price of everyone and their brother having the same car as you. No offense to the stang guys. That is the reason, I think GNs are so f'ing cool. They are so rare and they are fast. To each their own though. One day I will probably drive a stang too. I don't descriminate. :)

Originally posted by Brick
Lawrence Conley has a pretty serious twin turbo F-body.....

http://www.tweaked2.com

:D


must.........have...........for..........daily.... ......driver...........

Originally posted by got_hp?
must.........have...........for..........daily.... ......driver...........

2000hp is a "little" much for a daily driver, but that's just my opinion ;)

Originally posted by Brick
2000hp is a "little" much for a daily driver, but that's just my opinion ;)

pfffffft........nonsense! :D

Originally posted by 95_RipperZ
I agree. You can't consider yourself a real enthusiast if you don't turn your own wrench on anything.

I completely disagree with that statement. I think thats just an arrogant thing said by many that do their own work towards those that dont and its quite offending. I cannot do my own work (install my turbo, build my shortblock, and such) for a few reasons like how i've been disabled for the past 2 years from a bad accident I was in and also how much time I have to spend towards school and work. I simply dont have time so it is in my best interest to have a professional do it and do it right. Don't get me wrong, one day I will do a major install like how im deciding to pull/reinstall my heads later this year for a nice port job. I have all the knowledge about the modular 4.6 in my head, I just haven't really had much of a chance to do it so I haven't turned a wrench in around 2 years. There is definitely pride in what you do yourself, especially with cars, and I think everyone respects that.

-Adam

I also disagree that you have to work on your car to be an enthusiast. I do work on my car, but I will tell you this, I hate doing it. Its just a PITA to work on. I enjoy working on hondas though. But, I am very enthusiastic about driving my cars. Also, some people look at the vehicle as the means to an end. Does every computer programmer build their own computer? No, and I doubt that every race car driver builds their own car. They either don't have time, or interest in doing it, when they could be driving, or looking at other cars. A friend of mine has 3 high performance vehicles (all modded), and I consider him to be a big car enthusiast, but oh, oh, he doesn't have a single tool. Why? Its cheaper to pay someone than to spend his own time on it. It gets done faster, and he has more time to spend being enthused by his cars.

Originally posted by brain
I enjoy working on hondas though.

you sick freak!

Do you have to turn your own wrenches to be a true enthusiast? Of course not. Is there something wrong with paying someone else to do the work of you are physically unable to? Of course not.

But I'm talking about young, fit, even sometimes buff chaps in their low 20's paying almost as much as they paid for their headers to get their headers installed just b/c they "heard" it's a PITA online.

If your a young, fit, even sometimes buff chap with money to burn, that's your prerogative. But please spare me the whining on how you've been screwed over by shop after shop and "battle of the shops" pissing matches.

Originally posted by Jim S. '95 Z28
But I'm talking about young, fit, even sometimes buff chaps in their low 20's paying almost as much as they paid for their headers to get their headers installed

you gotta remember

theres young guys out there who would love to work on their cars, but only have one car.........and they work 6 days a week.................they dont have time to or tools to put their car up for 3 days and tackle a header install.

they need to have a shop do it because they can get it done in one day guaranteed without other problems.

does that make them less of an enthusiast?

i do agree that its pretty weak when they goto shops for easy stuff like an intake or whatever.........then youre just a wuss.


personally, i do my own work on my car (for 90% of things) because i dont trust anyone.

I agree. If it takes you three days to install headers, then you shouldn't be working on cars:D

But then again, lots of young, healthy chaps whine b/c their shop of choice takes alot longer than one day to do simple stuff. Seems logical to me that if shop after shop keeps giving you the shaft you would eventually take things into your own hands, at some point, rather than whining.

It doesn't make you less of an enthusiast. Just more of a crybaby:)

It's just sad to see the birth place of hot rodding/drag racing turn into pansyland:(

Originally posted by Jim S. '95 Z28
I agree. If it takes you three days to install headers, then you shouldn't be working on cars:D


itll probably take me 2-3 days..........but thats cause i only have 1-2 hours a day to work on it.

id like to see someone change out longtube headers in less than 2 hours.

It was a joke.

Hence the: :D

I agree with a few on this that you don't have to work on your car to be an enthusiast. Reasoning is like for my buddy he is planning on sending his car to one of the major tuners cause he is a doctor and makes more an hour than he has to pay out so why loose money working on the car and not having it done to his level of want.

Steven

I was referring to people who dont do anything. Which is a double negative so I guess it could have been taken the wrong way.

Meaning, a person who can't take 30 min. to throw on a CAI or a couple hours to do a catback. Granted there are the guys like the doctors who make more per hour than it costs to put it on but what do they do on Sundays that they can't take a couple hours to work on the little things. "They dont have tools"----- I am willing to bet they have friends or family who does. If you are an enthusiast, it is a hobby also. So is a couple hours a month or even a summer to install an easy part too much work?

I'm not expecting people to do everything on their cars but something.

zturbo,

Alot of the people I'm referring to use Mommy and Daddy's money. Smells like laziness/fear of the unknown to me:)

Originally posted by Jim S. '95 Z28
zturbo,

Alot of the people I'm referring to use Mommy and Daddy's money. Smells like laziness/fear of the unknown to me:)

i wish i had mommy/daddy money..............id buy a buttload of parts and still do the work myself!