Viper = POS car with powerful engine?

In CTSv/EVO thread a comment was made that SRT4 is just another powerful engine stuck in a POS car (aka Viper).

This got me thinking... is Viper really considered to be a POS car? When asking this question in the thread, I got vague replies, to the effect of "Viper is just a muscle car with a powerful engine", or "It's got interior heat problems"... etc..

Viper being a muscle car - I agree. Same as Corvette being a muscle car. Huge engines, loads of torque, etc... Does regarding Viper POS because of this would equate Corvette to a POS? I don't know, you tell me.

Viper is a whole lot more than a muscle car. F-body is a muscle car, a mustang is a muscle car - both built on very flexible unibody. Viper and Corvette are built on a frame, which is designed for race car style handling.

As for interior heat problems... Again, doesn't f-body have those problems? Air conditioner blowing warm air when stuck in traffic?

So, I wanted to open a new thread and ask people's opinions. The latest I've heard was that Viper was considered to be a great sports car with good proven track record. I would like to understand what makes people say that Viper is a crappy car... And, for my final line of argument, how is Corvette different from/better than Viper? If it isn't that much better, isn't Corvette a crappy car too?

And I want more substantial reasons than "just a muscle car" or "heat problems."

THank you.

I would think that heat problem would refer to the first ones, the R/T-10s with the ill-fitting side skirt windows and top.


I'd say by the time the GTS came out, the issues had been resolved.

I've always thought of the Viper as a modern interpretation of the old Shelby Cobra...

As for the common 'Viper' complaints about excessive heat and interior noise; those can easily be pinned on even the more expensive exotics (the Lamborghini Diablo and Ferrari F40 come to mind since all three appeared around the same time).

Seems to me the Viper gets a bad rap because it's character is more beast than ballet dancer.

If Viper wore a Ferrari or Lamborghini badge instead of a Dodge badge, people would never say a bad thing about it.

In fact, it would get praised for being the exotic car bargain of the century.

I didn't take that person's POS comment seriously because he plainly either had a chip on his shoulder regarding all Chrysler products, or simply didn't understand what Viper was all about.

Viper is a fantastic car... period. It took alot of balls to create a car with a V10 engine, racecar-type chassis, all the right top drawer performance pieces. It's more powerful than most anything else on the planet, has always had a waiting list, and is a fine representative of pure uncompromising American muscle. No panzy creature comfort items, no cop-out anti-lock brakes, no high tech blowers or multi-cam engines, just you, top drawer chassis and components, and a whole lot of power and torque. If you want more than that, you don't want a Viper. If someone thinks it's a POS, they aren't meant to have one.

To have someone say Viper is a POS and it doesn't have any utility is pretty much the complete counterpart to those people who think all cars should be legislated out of existence. You basically ignore them, or give them that same understanding look you give that crazy uncle when he begins to go a bit off the deep end. :)

I read an article on the new Viper vs. Corvette Z06. The interior heat problems are still present. That monster motor generates a lot of heat and, in an uncompromising spirit, DC limited the heat shielding/insulation in the name of weight saving performance.

The fact that Viper certainly is not a car for everyone doesn't make it a POS. It makes it a brutal performer that, well, isn't for everyone. :)

Originally posted by guionM


Viper is a fantastic car... period. It took alot of balls to create a car with a V10 engine, racecar-type chassis, all the right top drawer performance pieces. It's more powerful than most anything else on the planet, has always had a waiting list, and is a fine representative of pure uncompromising American muscle. No panzy creature comfort items, no cop-out anti-lock brakes, no high tech blowers or multi-cam engines, just you, top drawer chassis and components, and a whole lot of power and torque. If you want more than that, you don't want a Viper. If someone thinks it's a POS, they aren't meant to have one.



For the price, and as a "factory production car," the Viper is a POS. I've never understood how any "hand-built" automobile could look and feel like a mass-production plastic blob. We're talking about a car that costs as much as a 911 Carrera. In this category, the Viper is just plain offensive.

On the other hand, the performance and chassis specifications are world class. Nobody can complain that the Viper is slow. This is a car that can generate numbers.

The problem is that "performance numbers" are the only things this car is good at. The Viper is an uncomfortable and ugly car. Worse yet, it's "cheap" from the standpoint of quality and design, if not price.

If Chrysler ever needed to look at an example of a visceral sports car, they should have taken a gander at TVR. Here's a company that manages to produce uncompromised performance cars. Better yet, they even manage to produce their own engine designs without the benefit of massive resources. TVR's are fully comparable to the Viper in price and performance, but still manage to achieve beauty and quality.

Anyway, the Viper is one of those rare sports cars that I find utterly undesirable.:(

Originally posted by redzed
For the price, and as a "factory production car," the Viper is a POS. I've never understood how any "hand-built" automobile could look and feel like a mass-production plastic blob. We're talking about a car that costs as much as a 911 Carrera. In this category, the Viper is just plain offensive.

On the other hand, the performance and chassis specifications are world class. Nobody can complain that the Viper is slow. This is a car that can generate numbers.

The problem is that "performance numbers" are the only things this car is good at. The Viper is an uncomfortable and ugly car. Worse yet, it's "cheap" from the standpoint of quality and design, if not price.


I agree 100%. The Viper is just uncompromising. It'd be a cool car to have as long as you had something else more civil parked in the garage to drive as well. I would never choose one for a daily driver.

As has been pointed out quite a few times, the word is uncompromising!!!

Just as I said, Viper is a great car, but anyone who calls it a POS, it isn't meant for you. :D

Originally posted by redzed
On the other hand, the performance and chassis specifications are world class. Nobody can complain that the Viper is slow. This is a car that can generate numbers.

The problem is that "performance numbers" are the only things this car is good at. The Viper is an uncomfortable and ugly car. Worse yet, it's "cheap" from the standpoint of quality and design, if not price.

You do know that the same things have been said about the 4th Gen F-body right? :o

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
You do know that the same things have been said about the 4th Gen F-body right? :o

Yeah, but the F-body was a relatively cheap. Besides, who would have accused a LS-1 Z28 of not being a decent highway cruiser? For that matter, how was the material quality of a Z28 out of line with a $25k, 160mph car?

One of the greatest ironies in our society is that buyers will tolerate more design defects in a $80,000 car than a $20,000 one.:p

Originally posted by guionM


To have someone say Viper is a POS and it doesn't have any utility is pretty much the complete counterpart to those people who think all cars should be legislated out of existence. You basically ignore them, or give them that same understanding look you give that crazy uncle when he begins to go a bit off the deep end. :)

That was uncalled for...

I really didn't state everything I had against the Viper...Let me get this out of the way...I think its great that Dodge actually is bringing the public a beautiful muscle car that will destroy everything under 100K...And they don't even have too...their not making much, if any money off of it. Maybe its a brand name booster? I dunno...

But as a car...it is a POS...sure it has a powerful engine...and looks like a snake on wheels...but the problems it has AS a car, far outweigh the positive things this vehicle has going for it, in the mind of the consumer...which is why they sell so few. It is basicly just a hotrod, and thats great that their selling that, but when I'm looking for a car, I want to be comfortable, and not needs extensive driving lessons in that car before I actually own it. Thats why I would have a hotrod in the garage, that only cost me less than 20K to make just as fast if not faster than a Viper...

And someone said something to the nature of "well if the Viper is a POS w/ a fast engine, well then the same should be said for the Corvette....Well I don't think so...You don't need any driving lessons when driving a Corvette....It doesn't get uncomfortable after 10 minutes of driving, and you can use it as a commuter. And it cost 30K less. Would I buy a used first gen Viper for under 20K if it had under 100K miles on it? Absolutely. I would love a hotrod project that looks like the Viper and alreaddy has 430 HP :D


ALSO: We're starting to see, and are about to see cars that have similar performance #'s to the Viper, with more comfort/luxery, and utility, and for less than half the cost. This just helps prove my point that the Viper is a POS for the $$ And most of the customers that Dodge gets for the Viper, have been returning since the early first gens...

If you want a car to carry a lot of stuff buy a Taurus station wagon.

If you want a car that gets good gas milage buy a geo metro.

If you an ultra smooth ride and luxury features buy a BMW or STS

If you want basically a street legal race car buy a Viper.

The Viper was built to drive fast, The first Viper didn't have A/C airbags or ABS. It isn't built to be a practical ever day kind of car. It is a drivers car for drivers that want to go real fast.

The car does what it was built to do, and does it better than any car in its class. That is not a POS. If you want to buy an $80,000 2 seater with all the comfort and high tech bells and wistles buy a XLR.

Originally posted by Z28x

The car does what it was built to do, and does it better than any car in its class. That is not a POS. If you want to buy an $80,000 2 seater with all the comfort and high tech bells and wistles buy a XLR.

Which will be almost as fast as a Viper once GM lets the cat out of the bag and says it will get the LS6...

Originally posted by Meccadeth
That was uncalled for...

It wasn't meant to be mean or a flame, but was meant as a way of demonstrating that just like someone who doesn't understand why anyone would be interested in a Camaro calling one a POS, same goes for a Viper.


...But as a car...it is a POS...sure it has a powerful engine...and looks like a snake on wheels...but the problems it has AS a car, far outweigh the positive things this vehicle has going for it, in the mind of the consumer...which is why they sell so few.

Actually the reason they sell so few is because they planned it that way. It was supposed to have a short production run, and was concieved simply to give the Dodge brand (and Chrysler in general) a big morale boost. But a funny thing happened. The waiting list to get one never died down! In the end, they did clear money on the whole project, and there is actually a 2nd generation out. To say that the reason they sell few is because of the consumer isn't truthful. It's simply an excuse to slam a car that's actually doing well, is is very desireable to the customers it's aimed at.


It is basicly just a hotrod, and thats great that their selling that, but when I'm looking for a car, I want to be comfortable, and not needs extensive driving lessons in that car before I actually own it. Thats why I would have a hotrod in the garage, that only cost me less than 20K to make just as fast if not faster than a Viper...

Again, it's an uncompromising car that isn't made for everybody. I can dump money into my Z28 to make it faster than a Corvette, but that doesn't make my car a Corvette. By that logic, Camaro Z28s should have devastated Corvettes in the showrooms, let alone be more popular than SSs. The simple rule is that people want what people buy. Viper simply isn't marketed to you.


And someone said something to the nature of "well if the Viper is a POS w/ a fast engine, well then the same should be said for the Corvette....Well I don't think so...You don't need any driving lessons when driving a Corvette....It doesn't get uncomfortable after 10 minutes of driving, and you can use it as a commuter. And it cost 30K less.

Again, you completely misunderstand what a Viper is. It ISN'T a commuter car to take to the grocery store, and unlike Corvette, you are unlikely to se women driving them. As for driving lessons, what exact driving lessons do I have to take if I ever bought a Viper? BMW has a training course to learn how to get more out of the M-cars, and Porsches (if any car needs driver lessons) needs lessons to handle a car with that weighted anvil hung out back.


ALSO: We're starting to see, and are about to see cars that have similar performance #'s to the Viper, with more comfort/luxery, and utility, and for less than half the cost. This just helps prove my point that the Viper is a POS for the $$ And most of the customers that Dodge gets for the Viper, have been returning since the early first gens...

What cars are we seeing that have Viper's performance for less than half the cost?? Last I checked, the only one that comes close to your statement is the Z06 Corvette, which at $51,300 is well more than half of Viper's $80,000 price.

Just for the record, the Dodge Viper (newest edition) does 0-60 in LESS than 4 seconds, the quarter mile in under 12 seconds at over 120mph, and tops out at just under 200 mph.

Z06 does 0-60 in the low 4s, the quarter mile in the mid 12 second range in the 115-118 range, and tops 171 mph top speed.

I would post some links to slam dunk these times, but I think you can use Google & Yahoo just as easily as I can to check on this. :D

Corvette is America's favorite Sports Car. Viper is America's only Supercar.

Originally posted by Meccadeth
Which will be almost as fast as a Viper once GM lets the cat out of the bag and says it will get the LS6...

XLR is alot heavier than the Corvette, let alone a Z06. A Viper would simply tear an LS6 equipted XLR apart. Not a pretty thought. :no:

You simply hate Vipers and are reaching for anything to slam it on. Admit it, embrace it, and move on. :D

Originally posted by guionM
It wasn't meant to be mean or a flame, but was meant as a way of demonstrating that just like someone who doesn't understand why anyone would be interested in a Camaro calling one a POS, same goes for a Viper.



Actually the reason they sell so few is because they planned it that way. It was supposed to have a short production run, and was concieved simply to give the Dodge brand (and Chrysler in general) a big morale boost. But a funny thing happened. The waiting list to get one never died down! In the end, they did clear money on the whole project, and there is actually a 2nd generation out. To say that the reason they sell few is because of the consumer isn't truthful. It's simply an excuse to slam a car that's actually doing well, is is very desireable to the customers it's aimed at.




Again, it's an uncompromising car that isn't made for everybody. I can dump money into my Z28 to make it faster than a Corvette, but that doesn't make my car a Corvette. By that logic, Camaro Z28s should have devastated Corvettes in the showrooms, let alone be more popular than SSs. The simple rule is that people want what people buy. Viper simply isn't marketed to you.



Again, you completely misunderstand what a Viper is. It ISN'T a commuter car to take to the grocery store, and unlike Corvette, you are unlikely to se women driving them. As for driving lessons, what exact driving lessons do I have to take if I ever bought a Viper? BMW has a training course to learn how to get more out of the M-cars, and Porsches (if any car needs driver lessons) needs lessons to handle a car with that weighted anvil hung out back.




What cars are we seeing that have Viper's performance for less than half the cost?? Last I checked, the only one that comes close to your statement is the Z06 Corvette, which at $51,300 is well more than half of Viper's $80,000 price.

Just for the record, the Dodge Viper (newest edition) does 0-60 in LESS than 4 seconds, the quarter mile in under 12 seconds at over 120mph, and tops out at just under 200 mph.

Z06 does 0-60 in the low 4s, the quarter mile in the mid 12 second range in the 115-118 range, and tops 171 mph top speed.

I would post some links, but you can use Google & Yahoo just as easily as I can. :D

Corvette is America's favorite Sports Car. Viper is America's only Supercar. [/B]

All hail the wise guionM.

Yes, the Viper is great at what it was designed to be:
A motor with two seats and four wheels. I'd take one over a Z06, but that's just my opinion.

Originally posted by Meccadeth
Which will be almost as fast as a Viper once GM lets the cat out of the bag and says it will get the LS6...

I think it will get a twin turbo Northstar before it gets an LS6

too bad the 7.5L V12 doesn't fit:(

Originally posted by bigsteve7
I agree 100%. The Viper is just uncompromising. It'd be a cool car to have as long as you had something else more civil parked in the garage to drive as well. I would never choose one for a daily driver.

Nobody is talking about daily driver, for goodness sakes. You don't buy Carrera, Corvette, Viper, Ferrari, etc.. for grocery shopping, ski trips, camping, and construction supplies delivery.

People will not equate Corvette to a POS car, although it shares many "problems" of the Viper. Bad interior quality, cheap plastic, pieces not fitting together. Yet, to most of you Corvette is a world class, value packed sports car.

Bring up a competitive product - and trash is being spoken about it up and down.

Let's also not talk about beauty - it IS in the eye of the beholder. Many people think Porsches are hideous and ugly.

Originally posted by bulldoguav
All hail the wise guionM.

Yes, the Viper is great at what it was designed to be:
A motor with two seats and four wheels. I'd take one over a Z06, but that's just my opinion.

Nothing wrong with a Z06. I'd take one for myself before a Viper, because Viper isn't made for me either.

But though I wouldn't buy one myself, I do have a very healthy respect for them, and I'm simply not going to delude myself into thinking that simply because it isn't something I'd buy, it a POS car.

As for the "all wise" remark, I simply check Yahoo & Google before I make statements I'm unsure of (to avoid getting burned). It's easy, it's quick, it takes less than 15-20 seconds, and I simply have a big problem resisting the urge to debate people who simply don't take the extra few seconds to check on things before they make wrong (as in today) or simply stupid (as others in the past) statements

Originally posted by Meccadeth
But as a car...it is a POS...sure it has a powerful engine...and looks like a snake on wheels...but the problems it has AS a car, far outweigh the positive things this vehicle has going for it, in the mind of the consumer...which is why they sell so few. It is basicly just a hotrod, and thats great that their selling that, but when I'm looking for a car, I want to be comfortable, and not needs extensive driving lessons in that car before I actually own it. Thats why I would have a hotrod in the garage, that only cost me less than 20K to make just as fast if not faster than a Viper...

And someone said something to the nature of "well if the Viper is a POS w/ a fast engine, well then the same should be said for the Corvette....Well I don't think so...You don't need any driving lessons when driving a Corvette....It doesn't get uncomfortable after 10 minutes of driving, and you can use it as a commuter. And it cost 30K less. Would I buy a used first gen Viper for under 20K if it had under 100K miles on it? Absolutely. I would love a hotrod project that looks like the Viper and alreaddy has 430 HP :D


ALSO: We're starting to see, and are about to see cars that have similar performance #'s to the Viper, with more comfort/luxery, and utility, and for less than half the cost. This just helps prove my point that the Viper is a POS for the $$ And most of the customers that Dodge gets for the Viper, have been returning since the early first gens...

What we have here is a failure to communicate. :D

I do not think anyone is arguing that Viper is the utlimate car for every driver. Its purpose is one. Not all people are looking for that purpose in a car.

Corvette isn't 430 HP / 4xx lb/ft car. Or 500+HP/500+ lb/ft. Hence it may not need such driving lessons as Viper does. At the same time, driving lessons, IMO, are a good way to boost image. BMW is doing that, Porsche is doing that, etc... I will say this, when I got my Z28 it took me a couple of months to learn how to handle the car. It was a little too much for me at the beginning, coming from a FWD econobox. I would like to see Corvette offer driving school for its owners.

Analogy: I am wondering if drivers who race open wheels complain about comfort or training they need to get. Exaggeration - yes. However, the argument still stands, as follows: this is a purpose-built car. It draws "customers" who are looking exactly for that.

Performance and price. The fact that you can build a hot rod with solid performance for XX thousand less is irrelevant. Are we getting the rice boy mentality? "I can buy this car for so much less, modify it and have it beat your car." I agree - I can buy WRX, which can be a fine utility vehicle, modify it and have it beat Corvette in straight line acceleration, or even on the track if enough is invested. It may or may not be cheaper than Corvette, but let's assume that it is. Using your line of reasoning, Corvette is a POS car. :rolleyes:

:bow:GuionM: good constructive posts, as usual.

Originally posted by muckz
Nobody is talking about daily driver, for goodness sakes. You don't buy Carrera, Corvette, Viper, Ferrari, etc.. for grocery shopping, ski trips, camping, and construction supplies delivery.


I partially beg to differ. None of these cars are Accords or Camrys but they can be driven daily. There are many people who buy Corvettes and Porsches and drive them daily. They drive them to work, take the a kid to soccer practice and on the way home stop and get groceries. If you only have on passenger I dont see where you are coming from. The cars both have nice interiors with many ammenities and features that make them comfortable and easy to use. Thats what I think a lot of the people speaking in this thread are saying that these cars have as an advantage over the Viper. One of the things that makes the Ferrari that you gave for an example such a wonderful car is that it can offer Viper performance and be even easier to live with day to day and offer more luxury than say a Vette or Porsche.

On the other hand I personally konw 2 people who drive Viper's daily. Thats right, 5 days a week they drive their Vipers to work and back. One drives a GTS coupe, the other (my dentist) drives a older early 90's RT/10. My dentist even picks up his daughter from elementary school in his car. These guys are enthuiests and bought the Vipers knowing what they were purchasing. I'm willing to bet though that even theyd agree a Porsche, Corvette or even Ferrari for that matter would be a much more civil car for everyday usage.

Originally posted by bigsteve7
I partially beg to differ. None of these cars are Accords or Camrys but they can be driven daily. There are many people who buy Corvettes and Porsches and drive them daily. They drive them to work, take the a kid to soccer practice and on the way home stop and get groceries. If you only have on passenger I dont see where you are coming from. The cars both have nice interiors with many ammenities and features that make them comfortable and easy to use. Thats what I think a lot of the people speaking in this thread are saying that these cars have as an advantage over the Viper. One of the things that makes the Ferrari that you gave for an example such a wonderful car is that it can offer Viper performance and be even easier to live with day to day and offer more luxury than say a Vette or Porsche.

On the other hand I personally konw 2 people who drive Viper's daily. Thats right, 5 days a week they drive their Vipers to work and back. One drives a GTS coupe, the other (my dentist) drives a older early 90's RT/10. My dentist even picks up his daughter from elementary school in his car. These guys are enthuiests and bought the Vipers knowing what they were purchasing. I'm willing to bet though that even theyd agree a Porsche, Corvette or even Ferrari for that matter would be a much more civil car for everyday usage.

OK, point taken. Viper is not that refined.

I think that the direction from which I'm coming is that personally I know Viper for what it is and I would not be looking for convenience and daily drivability (although it sufficiently offers both to me) when thinking of acquiring one. As GuionM said, if convenience and daily drivability were my main concern, than it is not the vehicle for me. Nonetheless, I do not see the need to call Viper POS simply because of that. People that do that really miss the purpose of that car.

<edit: I find I need to edit my posts and correct grammar and spelling. Maybe I should go to sleep now and talk about this tomorrow :) >

Originally posted by guionM
Viper is America's only Supercar.

Now wouldn't Shelby, Panoz, Zonda and likely a few others (including Ford) take offense to that?

Originally posted by jrp4uc
Now wouldn't Shelby, Panoz, Zonda and likely a few others (including Ford) take offense to that?

Perhaps if they didn't use engines from someone else. :D

(PS: Of course that'll change once the Ford GT comes out ;))

Originally posted by jrp4uc
Now wouldn't Shelby, Panoz, Zonda and likely a few others (including Ford) take offense to that?
Yeah, good point. If money is already out the window, there's a fair group of cars that are blisteringly fast... I assume your reference to Ford was regarding the upcoming GT(-40) street cars. The Saleen S7 is another besides your list of makers Jerry.

Originally posted by guionM
Viper is America's only Supercar.

Well, you gotta look at this too guionM - it's expensive, but...
0-60 under 4 seconds, top speed over 200mph...
Curb weight 2700 lbs...
No fancy turbos, SC's, or quad cams...
"The cam-in-block 7-litre motor generates 550 horsepower at 6400 rpm. Redline is 7000 rpm. The motor delivers 520 foot-pounds of torque at 4000 rpm."

"The S7 has “full tray” body sculpting underneath. With its extreme ground effects engineering, at 160 mph the car could be driven upside down and still stay attached to the road."

"Every Comfort for the High Performance Driver. As much care has been given to the creature comforts of the Saleen S7 as to its performance." Their attention to making the car comfortable and driveable is astounding.

Saleen S7 (http://www.saleen.com/auto/S7/s7.htm)
Photos (http://www.saleen.com/auto/S7/thumbFiles/ext_int/Slide_Ext_Int.htm)
Specs (http://www.saleen.com/auto/S7/S7specs.htm)

Not flaming you guionM - not at all. Just offering that there ARE other US-designed and US built Supercars that outperform the Viper's very credible stats. Granted, they typically cost more and are hand-built, but they DO exist.

I agree with you regarding the Viper - and I'll go on record as saying that I have liked them from the beginning. IMO, if you can't afford a $65K toy, the car is not for you - regardless of your driving ability or personal needs.

Proud

The interior heat problems are still present. That monster motor generates a lot of heat and, in an uncompromising spirit, DC limited the heat shielding/insulation in the name of weight saving performance.

so it IS alot like the shelby daytona... those get nice and toasty aparantly

Originally posted by guionM
I didn't take that person's POS comment seriously because he plainly either had a chip on his shoulder regarding all Chrysler products, or simply didn't understand what Viper was all about.

:rolleyes:

Excluding the new model, which I haven't seen much on, I still feel the old model is a POS. To me, it didn't seem like Dodge put very much engineering into it at all. They just slapped together a car and shoe horned in a huge v-10 to make sure it was fast. Its slowly improved over the years, but it's not nearly as balanced as the corvette when it comes to all around performance, not just blasting down a 1/4 mile track. Anyone can put a huge motor in a subpar car and have it hit 12's. I feel performance is more than 1/4 mile and 0-60 times

Originally posted by slt
:rolleyes:

Excluding the new model, which I haven't seen much on, I still feel the old model is a POS. To me, it didn't seem like Dodge put very much engineering into it at all. They just slapped together a car and shoe horned in a huge v-10 to make sure it was fast. Its slowly improved over the years, but it's not nearly as balanced as the corvette when it comes to all around performance, not just blasting down a 1/4 mile track. Anyone can put a huge motor in a subpar car and have it hit 12's. I feel performance is more than 1/4 mile and 0-60 times

The only possibly "poor" aspect of the car performance wise I can think of were the origional brakes which didnt have ABS, but that is a subjective claim. You can argue that not having ABS made the car more purebred. The Viper handles very well from my understanding. What exactly are you saying it cant do?

since you brought up the S7, don't forge the Mosler MT900 (http://www.moslerauto.com/cgi-bin/mosler.pl?header=/mt900/header_pc.html&content=/mt900/specs.html) :)


Curb weight without fuel is 2200 lbs
powered by a LS6

Zero-to-60 mph 3.5 sec
Standing Quarter-Mile 12 sec @ 118 mph
Braking 70 mph to Zero 149 ft.
300-ft Skidpad 1.02 g.
Top Speed 200+ mph

Projected EPA Fuel Economy 19 mpg city
28 mph hwy

I think I've found my $150,000 grocery gettering! :D

Originally posted by guionM
Perhaps if they didn't use engines from someone else. :D



So then the McLaren isn't a supercar because it uses an engine from another company? How about the Morgan Areo 8 or Lotus Elise?

Originally posted by slt
:rolleyes:

Excluding the new model, which I haven't seen much on, I still feel the old model is a POS. To me, it didn't seem like Dodge put very much engineering into it at all. They just slapped together a car and shoe horned in a huge v-10 to make sure it was fast. Its slowly improved over the years, but it's not nearly as balanced as the corvette when it comes to all around performance, not just blasting down a 1/4 mile track. Anyone can put a huge motor in a subpar car and have it hit 12's. I feel performance is more than 1/4 mile and 0-60 times

I have heard others reference the short comings of the first generation Vipers, comparing their quality to that of kitcars...so this is not a new idea.

I mentioned the continued toasty interior issues in the other thread as I also read these problems were a point of criticism in the latest Vette vs. '03 Viper (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0211_vv/index.html) comparison I read. In most other areas,they noted the new car is much improved over the previous generation.

Originally posted by jrp4uc
Vette vs. '03 Viper (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0211_vv/index.html)

Mid article:



All sorts of value judgments can be made about the Viper's higher cost and less practical packaging. But for the man or woman--there are a bunch of Viper-owning-and-driving red-blooded American females out there--who value image and the performance to back it up, the Viper continues to deliver. In spite of the fact that the new car is a more sophisticated piece, it remains in character as a rude, crude, and lewd dude.

There's a bit of Jekyll and Hyde in both these machines. The Viper is wilder, faster, and rarer. It's also a lot more expensive. If a few tenths-worth of bragging rights is worth $30 grand extra to you, and you want to be a member of a more exclusive club (Dodge will sell perhaps 2000 Vipers next year, while Chevy will peddle more like 10,000 Z06s), the Viper is the wilder child. It's a better car, in every way, than the one it replaces and delivers performance that exceeds the driving talents of many who'll buy it. If you judge a car by its 0-60 and quarter-mile times, the Viper is the winner here.

However, the Z06 is still seriously fast in a straight line and can corner and stop right up there with the Big Bad Dodge. It's a lot easier to live with on a daily basis. The Viper is a weekend toy, while the Corvette would serve as an everyday runner--that happens to have 405 horses. And let's not forget that it's a cheaper date by some $30 grand. How, by any stretch, could that be called a loser?


I think thats the general consensus of this thread.

Originally posted by guionM
Nothing wrong with a Z06. I'd take one for myself before a Viper, because Viper isn't made for me either.

But though I wouldn't buy one myself, I do have a very healthy respect for them, and I'm simply not going to delude myself into thinking that simply because it isn't something I'd buy, it a POS car.

As for the "all wise" remark, I simply check Yahoo & Google before I make statements I'm unsure of (to avoid getting burned). It's easy, it's quick, it takes less than 15-20 seconds, and I simply have a big problem resisting the urge to debate people who simply don't take the extra few seconds to check on things before they make wrong (as in today) or simply stupid (as others in the past) statements

So I'm WRONG for beleiving that the Viper is a POS? Thats an OPINION man! J/p, I know what your saying...;) :p

But you haven't argued me out of thinking that it isn't a POS yet, which is your purpose. The Viper costs 80K for a car that has 500 HP/Torque, little luxery, little convenience, limited drivability, and little comfort. EIGHTY GRAND! Thats just robbery in my mind. Their customers have to REALLY love the way the Viper looks and the admiration they get when driving one in order to buy one. Its almost like an ego statement...hey, if your ego is worth 80K to you, then the more power to ya. Where-as you have the Z06, which is more comfortable, more cummuter-oriented, a LITTLE more luxerious, and ALMOST as fast as the Viper (Not many people who will go out and buy a new Corvette are THAT concerned w/ the 1/2 second difference in the 1/4 mile) and it only costs 51K.

OK, well we have all that and still you say that simply, the Viper is not for me, well maybe your right. Even though I love the way the new Viper looks, and I love 500 HP, even more, I love 500 Torque, and that stereo they have in there now. But still, I would not pay them any more than 50K for a car like that. Whereas, I would rather save up for a real supercar, that offers Power AND comfort, for only (did I say only?) 200K more. Lets face it, if you can afford a new Viper, then you only have to save for a few years to buy a new Lamborghini.

Originally posted by StormAngel
So then the McLaren isn't a supercar because it uses an engine from another company? How about the Morgan Areo 8 or Lotus Elise?

My claim was America's only super car. Those aren't sold here...at least not at the moment.

Originally posted by Meccadeth
So I'm WRONG for beleiving that the Viper is a POS? Thats an OPINION man! J/p, I know what your saying...;) :p

But you haven't argued me out of thinking that it isn't a POS yet, which is your purpose. The Viper costs 80K for a car that has 500 HP/Torque, little luxery, little convenience, limited drivability, and little comfort. EIGHTY GRAND! Thats just robbery in my mind. Their customers have to REALLY love the way the Viper looks and the admiration they get when driving one in order to buy one. Its almost like an ego statement...hey, if your ego is worth 80K to you, then the more power to ya. Where-as you have the Z06, which is more comfortable, more cummuter-oriented, a LITTLE more luxerious, and ALMOST as fast as the Viper (Not many people who will go out and buy a new Corvette are THAT concerned w/ the 1/2 second difference in the 1/4 mile) and it only costs 51K.

Ya know, in my opinion, anyone who spends more than $40,000 on a car iIS buying on pure ego! :D

You won't get any debate from me on Corvette being a more civil car between the 2, and I'm sure every soul here will agree. But again, I really think there's noone here Viper is marketed to.

Originally posted by StormAngel
Lets face it, if you can afford a new Viper, then you only have to save for a few years to buy a new Lamborghini.

Lamborhini?! :eek: Now there's a POS! ;)

Originally posted by ProudPony
...Well, you gotta look at this too guionM - it's expensive, but...
0-60 under 4 seconds, top speed over 200mph...
Curb weight 2700 lbs...
No fancy turbos, SC's, or quad cams...
"The cam-in-block 7-litre motor generates 550 horsepower at 6400 rpm. Redline is 7000 rpm. The motor delivers 520 foot-pounds of torque at 4000 rpm."

"The S7 has “full tray” body sculpting underneath. With its extreme ground effects engineering, at 160 mph the car could be driven upside down and still stay attached to the road."

"Every Comfort for the High Performance Driver. As much care has been given to the creature comforts of the Saleen S7 as to its performance." Their attention to making the car comfortable and driveable is astounding.

Saleen S7 (http://www.saleen.com/auto/S7/s7.htm)
Photos (http://www.saleen.com/auto/S7/thumbFiles/ext_int/Slide_Ext_Int.htm)
Specs (http://www.saleen.com/auto/S7/S7specs.htm)

Not flaming you guionM - not at all. Just offering that there ARE other US-designed and US built Supercars that outperform the Viper's very credible stats. Granted, they typically cost more and are hand-built, but they DO exist.

I agree with you regarding the Viper - and I'll go on record as saying that I have liked them from the beginning. IMO, if you can't afford a $65K toy, the car is not for you - regardless of your driving ability or personal needs.

Proud


Disclaimer: The following is just my opinion, so just view it as that:

I consider cars true supercars if the major components are done "in house". Lamborghinis, Ferraris, and Vipers get their powerplants, dashboard components, and drivetrains primarily from in house, and are engineered from the ground up as individual cars. Saleen & Panoz may as well be Ford subsidaries. Shelby got his engines from Oldsmobile and most everything else from GM.

In reality, those cars you mentioned are supercars in that they are hella fast rides. But using that standard, you'd also have to include Lingfelter Corvettes & F-bodies, Hennessey Vipers, as well as Saleen Mustangs which produce faster rides using other company's vehicles or components.

I don't take anything here as a flame because this is a more adult place to be, and debates here (though heated at times) still tend to turn out civil in the end, as opposed to the message boards at other places, like say.... The Car Connection. :yuck:

For the life of me, I could never justify owning THAT car, at THAT price. It's just totally out of balance in that regard. Exclusivity goes a long way towards guaranteeing a sustainable monopoly. In this case, being the only V10 sports car is one excuse for the exorbitant price. Viper is like "I'm the only V10." Corvette is like "I'm the only one who has been around continuously for 50 years." I guess the more exclusive and outlandish attributes you have, the more you can justify charging people, but even if I had the $$, I wouldn't be one of them.

Plus, frankly, I've always hated the way they look, from the start to the present day. Being fast at the cost of looking ugly doing it is too big a tradeoff.

I totally respect Viper's capabilities. I'm sure it's a great driver's car for those who get on the waiting lists. It'll never be my style though. Just doesn't have that tingle.

gt

The Viper is a handbuilt supercar, with all the follies and foibles that brings. How do I know? I owned a '94 for 6 years, and recently totaled it. During those 6 years, I had to:

Repaint the side pipe covers twice due to paint cracking/corrosion of the aluminum.

Replace the dang things finally with fiberglass repros, which fixed the problem.

Repaint the hood twice due to paint cracking. When we finally stripped the hood down completely for the second time, we found about 1/8"-1/4" of bondo smeared across the entire top surface of the hood which was causing the cracking. Apparently the factory had some waviness problems with the hood.

Replace head gaskets due to coolant leakage.

POS? No.

PITA? Yes.

The new ones are probably much better, but I'll wait till the feeding frenzy dies before getting one.

Originally posted by centric
How do I know? I owned a '94 for 6 years, and recently totaled it. During those 6 years, I had to:

Repaint the side pipe covers twice due to paint cracking/corrosion of the aluminum.

Replace the dang things finally with fiberglass repros, which fixed the problem.

Repaint the hood twice due to paint cracking. When we finally stripped the hood down completely for the second time, we found about 1/8"-1/4" of bondo smeared across the entire top surface of the hood which was causing the cracking. Apparently the factory had some waviness problems with the hood.

Replace head gaskets due to coolant leakage.

POS? No.

PITA? Yes.

The new ones are probably much better, but I'll wait till the feeding frenzy dies before getting one.

I'm sorry, but nothing says POS more than a factory bondo-job.

Originally posted by redzed
I'm sorry, but nothing says POS more than a factory bondo-job.

That was 10 years ago , it's a totally different car now

I'm sorry, but the Viper GTS is simply the sexiest domestic car built in the last twenty years. Bar none. When you see a Viper on the street, you think: Oh ****...

What other car EVER built makes you feel that way? Personally, none do to me. I'd say yes, Viper is the only American supercar on the streets today.

Some might argue Saleen, Ameritech McLaren, etc. But how many of the owners (which there aren't too many to begin with) have the balls to take it to their claimed 200mph? Not that damn many.

Now the Viper owners like to run with their hair on fire, as far as I'm concerned. Henessey, et al.....geez, a rocket on wheels. What other factory car makes your heartbeat change beats? None. What other manufacturer has the balls that Dodge had? None, and they are making the car better! I cannot wait until the coupe comes out on the V2.

The car was totally based off of Shelby's Cobra and Daytona. Now that they got their own feel, these things may be the best performance car built by a major manufacturer. Dodge spent ten years working the bugs out, and from what I've heard, they did a good job.

The Corvette may be cheaper, and may have been around for 50 years, but when it comes to performance, the Viper is still the king, and makes the Corvette look positively boring.

Corvette may be the more well put together car, but the Vette has been around for 50 years now, and is the GM flagship.

The Viper is just getting started....

Originally posted by bulldoguav


Now the Viper owners like to run with their hair on fire, as far as I'm concerned. Henessey, et al.....geez, a rocket on wheels. What other factory car makes your heartbeat change beats? None. What other manufacturer has the balls that Dodge had? None, and they are making the car better! I cannot wait until the coupe comes out on the V2.



I remember hearing a cool story about how a Henessey test-driver locked up a Viper in a fairly easy corner. It left some fairly nice tracks in the desert. When even the pros can make mistakes like this, its good that Chrysler begrudgingly put ABS on the Viper.

The GTS was a great improvement, and the coupe elements were well styled. Of course, when Gen. 2 rolled around, D-C stuck with the doofy targa look of the original Viper. Too bad they didn't have the "balls" to make a true roadster with just a chromed roll hoop.

Originally posted by redzed
I remember hearing a cool story about how a Henessey test-driver locked up a Viper in a fairly easy corner. It left some fairly nice tracks in the desert. When even the pros can make mistakes like this, its good that Chrysler begrudgingly put ABS on the Viper.

The GTS was a great improvement, and the coupe elements were well styled. Of course, when Gen. 2 rolled around, D-C stuck with the doofy targa look of the original Viper. Too bad they didn't have the "balls" to make a true roadster with just a chromed roll hoop.

I like the fact that they went with a true vert instead of something that reminded me of a del Sol for 2003.

If the coupe looks similar to the GTSR shown on Autoweek, et al back a couple years ago, I might soil myself.

If it's made in America, self-flagellating Americans will say it's a POS. 4N cars have more "cachet".

It would help if the Am sports cars had high-revving engiens w OHCs, 4 valves per cylinder, and VVT, as pushrods and huge displacement smack of "low tech, old school", no matter how well they work.

Originally posted by guionM
My claim was America's only super car. Those aren't sold here...at least not at the moment.


I bring thoes up because you dismissed Panoz and Seleen because thes don't build there own engines. If the Panoz and S7 aren't supercars, then niether is the McLaren F1.