Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
11-11-2005, 12:05 PM
#16
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Rock Hill, SC
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Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Originally Posted by menace6786
is 12 extra pounds with solid bar really going to make a difference over all. your going to add 12 pounds to a car easily if go from 16 inch rims to 17inch rims. if you go to a fiberglass ram air hood from a stock hood your loosing about ten pounds. if you autocross go with solid. i dont get whats everbodys deal with hollow or solid.
11-11-2005, 01:41 PM
#17
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
i have a solid bar and it weighs 25.5 pounds and my buddy has a hollow bar and it weighs right around 14pounds and tell you the truth cant tell theres more weight in the front with mine. actually you can be a little more agressive with mine . plus if your running koni shocks with a aftermarket spring its almost impossible to tell if you have a solid or hollow bar.
11-11-2005, 02:16 PM
#19
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 82
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
I just bought an Eibach 35mm front & 25mm rear tubular set ($285.95). That, and a UMI panhard bar ($69.95) and four KYB AGX shocks ($271.56). I won't have them installed till next Wedsday. But I'm sure hoping it will fix-up my suspension. Right now it's all squeeky and has a little roll. I just figured I'd go ahead and put in new stuff and see what happens. It was all stuff I was going to eventually do anyway.
11-11-2005, 05:16 PM
#20
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 422
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
IMO, if you go with a 1LE 32mm front, pick up a 21mm rear. It gave me the ability to get a little lift throttle oversteer. Not enough to cause the car to be out of balance, just enough to bring the rear end a little wider and it immediatly catches when throttle is reapplied. I Like it. 
My Camaro has the 21mm rear bar and my WS6 doesn't, I swear I like the handling of the Camaro a little better.
My Camaro has the 21mm rear bar and my WS6 doesn't, I swear I like the handling of the Camaro a little better.
11-11-2005, 05:54 PM
#21
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Location: Brookville, PA
Posts: 715
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Originally Posted by samualt
I just bought an Eibach 35mm front & 25mm rear tubular set ($285.95).
You didn't buy Eibach 35/25 bars, because Eibach doesn't make 35/25 bars. They are 32/21's. ST makes 35/25.... FWIW, and 25mm rear bars are, IMHO way too large. And neither the Eibachs or the ST's are tubular (hollow). Both are very, very solid.
11-11-2005, 06:09 PM
#22
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Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Hollow vs. solid bars... Solid bars offer a cheaper price in some instances that hollow bars. Sometimes solid bars are pretty close to the same price. The performance of a solid vs. a hollow of proper wall thickness and same diameter is pretty much the same, but obviously the solid bar is much heavier.
An ST bar is almost 28 pounds. I know, I used to use that bar exclusively until we had ours built. My 35mm front bar is 14.5 pounds. Can you feel 14 pounds on a 3400 pound car? No. Is it there? Absolutely. You will never save hundreds of pounds at once with any car. It adds up, and in the case of a front bar, ANY solid bar is ADDING weight to the car because the front bar is hollow from GM.
The rear bar is smaller, so there is less weight difference between them. A 21 vs. my hollow 22 is about 5 pounds different (10 vs. 5). Big deal right? Well, it's not only 5 pounds of weight, but 5 pounds of unsprung weight as well since it's bolted to the axle. Unsprung weight is bad and it hurts ride as well as response and that's on top of just the "regular" weight. Ok, the axle is heavy... what's 5 pounds? On the other hand, the axle is heavy, and 5 pounds off is that much better. And it's an acutaly savings as the stock rear bar is solid.
My bars vs. a solid set of 35/21's save you about 20 pounds or so. My bars vs. solid 35/25's, and you save about 24-25 pounds.
To the guy who said if you autocross go with solid. No, if you autox, you'd more than anyone would want hollow for performance. The less performance driving you do, the more you can afford to go solid. And I know that solid is cheaper on a 35mm bar, I also know my bar is more than an ST bar. But Jeg's can't sell that bar for that price for long. Jobber on that ST bar is $161.37, they apparenly. I'll sell that bar for $159, as will most places (and Jeg's will too when they realize their error). And if you look at the more normal sales price vs. my bar @ $199, the difference isn't huge for 14.5 pounds and a lot easier installation. Wrestling a 30 pounder vs. a 15 pounder is a big difference on your back.
As for sizes... If you run 32, you should stay 19 IMHO. Joe likes his 32/21 combo better because it will allow some rotation. Well, I bet his cars have a stock alignment, and likely stock shocks. A better alignment would gain front grip and give him the balance he seeks and do it without taking any grip from the rear, which is what the 21 rear did a bit off. There is balance, and there's balance with maximum grip. Also, with better shocks, particularly something you can adjust folks find they don't always need more rear bar (personal) because the better shock damping/slower roll rate gives the feel they want without changing steady state grip. I sell a lot of both front and rear bars, but the front is the more important one of the two.
An ST bar is almost 28 pounds. I know, I used to use that bar exclusively until we had ours built. My 35mm front bar is 14.5 pounds. Can you feel 14 pounds on a 3400 pound car? No. Is it there? Absolutely. You will never save hundreds of pounds at once with any car. It adds up, and in the case of a front bar, ANY solid bar is ADDING weight to the car because the front bar is hollow from GM.
The rear bar is smaller, so there is less weight difference between them. A 21 vs. my hollow 22 is about 5 pounds different (10 vs. 5). Big deal right? Well, it's not only 5 pounds of weight, but 5 pounds of unsprung weight as well since it's bolted to the axle. Unsprung weight is bad and it hurts ride as well as response and that's on top of just the "regular" weight. Ok, the axle is heavy... what's 5 pounds? On the other hand, the axle is heavy, and 5 pounds off is that much better. And it's an acutaly savings as the stock rear bar is solid.
My bars vs. a solid set of 35/21's save you about 20 pounds or so. My bars vs. solid 35/25's, and you save about 24-25 pounds.
To the guy who said if you autocross go with solid. No, if you autox, you'd more than anyone would want hollow for performance. The less performance driving you do, the more you can afford to go solid. And I know that solid is cheaper on a 35mm bar, I also know my bar is more than an ST bar. But Jeg's can't sell that bar for that price for long. Jobber on that ST bar is $161.37, they apparenly. I'll sell that bar for $159, as will most places (and Jeg's will too when they realize their error). And if you look at the more normal sales price vs. my bar @ $199, the difference isn't huge for 14.5 pounds and a lot easier installation. Wrestling a 30 pounder vs. a 15 pounder is a big difference on your back.
As for sizes... If you run 32, you should stay 19 IMHO. Joe likes his 32/21 combo better because it will allow some rotation. Well, I bet his cars have a stock alignment, and likely stock shocks. A better alignment would gain front grip and give him the balance he seeks and do it without taking any grip from the rear, which is what the 21 rear did a bit off. There is balance, and there's balance with maximum grip. Also, with better shocks, particularly something you can adjust folks find they don't always need more rear bar (personal) because the better shock damping/slower roll rate gives the feel they want without changing steady state grip. I sell a lot of both front and rear bars, but the front is the more important one of the two.
11-11-2005, 06:27 PM
#23
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 309
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Originally Posted by 01 FS Z28
Hollow vs. solid bars... Solid bars offer a cheaper price in some instances that hollow bars. Sometimes solid bars are pretty close to the same price. The performance of a solid vs. a hollow of proper wall thickness and same diameter is pretty much the same, but obviously the solid bar is much heavier.
An ST bar is almost 28 pounds. I know, I used to use that bar exclusively until we had ours built. My 35mm front bar is 14.5 pounds. Can you feel 14 pounds on a 3400 pound car? No. Is it there? Absolutely. You will never save hundreds of pounds at once with any car. It adds up, and in the case of a front bar, ANY solid bar is ADDING weight to the car because the front bar is hollow from GM.
The rear bar is smaller, so there is less weight difference between them. A 21 vs. my hollow 22 is about 5 pounds different (10 vs. 5). Big deal right? Well, it's not only 5 pounds of weight, but 5 pounds of unsprung weight as well since it's bolted to the axle. Unsprung weight is bad and it hurts ride as well as response and that's on top of just the "regular" weight. Ok, the axle is heavy... what's 5 pounds? On the other hand, the axle is heavy, and 5 pounds off is that much better. And it's an acutaly savings as the stock rear bar is solid.
My bars vs. a solid set of 35/21's save you about 20 pounds or so. My bars vs. solid 35/25's, and you save about 24-25 pounds.
To the guy who said if you autocross go with solid. No, if you autox, you'd more than anyone would want hollow for performance. The less performance driving you do, the more you can afford to go solid. And I know that solid is cheaper on a 35mm bar, I also know my bar is more than an ST bar. But Jeg's can't sell that bar for that price for long. Jobber on that ST bar is $161.37, they apparenly. I'll sell that bar for $159, as will most places (and Jeg's will too when they realize their error). And if you look at the more normal sales price vs. my bar @ $199, the difference isn't huge for 14.5 pounds and a lot easier installation. Wrestling a 30 pounder vs. a 15 pounder is a big difference on your back.
As for sizes... If you run 32, you should stay 19 IMHO. Joe likes his 32/21 combo better because it will allow some rotation. Well, I bet his cars have a stock alignment, and likely stock shocks. A better alignment would gain front grip and give him the balance he seeks and do it without taking any grip from the rear, which is what the 21 rear did a bit off. There is balance, and there's balance with maximum grip. Also, with better shocks, particularly something you can adjust folks find they don't always need more rear bar (personal) because the better shock damping/slower roll rate gives the feel they want without changing steady state grip. I sell a lot of both front and rear bars, but the front is the more important one of the two.
An ST bar is almost 28 pounds. I know, I used to use that bar exclusively until we had ours built. My 35mm front bar is 14.5 pounds. Can you feel 14 pounds on a 3400 pound car? No. Is it there? Absolutely. You will never save hundreds of pounds at once with any car. It adds up, and in the case of a front bar, ANY solid bar is ADDING weight to the car because the front bar is hollow from GM.
The rear bar is smaller, so there is less weight difference between them. A 21 vs. my hollow 22 is about 5 pounds different (10 vs. 5). Big deal right? Well, it's not only 5 pounds of weight, but 5 pounds of unsprung weight as well since it's bolted to the axle. Unsprung weight is bad and it hurts ride as well as response and that's on top of just the "regular" weight. Ok, the axle is heavy... what's 5 pounds? On the other hand, the axle is heavy, and 5 pounds off is that much better. And it's an acutaly savings as the stock rear bar is solid.
My bars vs. a solid set of 35/21's save you about 20 pounds or so. My bars vs. solid 35/25's, and you save about 24-25 pounds.
To the guy who said if you autocross go with solid. No, if you autox, you'd more than anyone would want hollow for performance. The less performance driving you do, the more you can afford to go solid. And I know that solid is cheaper on a 35mm bar, I also know my bar is more than an ST bar. But Jeg's can't sell that bar for that price for long. Jobber on that ST bar is $161.37, they apparenly. I'll sell that bar for $159, as will most places (and Jeg's will too when they realize their error). And if you look at the more normal sales price vs. my bar @ $199, the difference isn't huge for 14.5 pounds and a lot easier installation. Wrestling a 30 pounder vs. a 15 pounder is a big difference on your back.
As for sizes... If you run 32, you should stay 19 IMHO. Joe likes his 32/21 combo better because it will allow some rotation. Well, I bet his cars have a stock alignment, and likely stock shocks. A better alignment would gain front grip and give him the balance he seeks and do it without taking any grip from the rear, which is what the 21 rear did a bit off. There is balance, and there's balance with maximum grip. Also, with better shocks, particularly something you can adjust folks find they don't always need more rear bar (personal) because the better shock damping/slower roll rate gives the feel they want without changing steady state grip. I sell a lot of both front and rear bars, but the front is the more important one of the two.
11-11-2005, 06:46 PM
#24
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 82
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
01 FS Z28:
Your probably right. But I can only go by what the ad said. See the link below. I figured they might be slightly smaller, and maybe solid. It's all going to depend on what Eibach has for that model car. You always take a chance on Ebay. But it did say 35mm front and 25mm rear tubular. I see several ads for other stores saying the same thing.
Ebay Link - Eibach 35/25mm Tubular Sway Bars
Your probably right. But I can only go by what the ad said. See the link below. I figured they might be slightly smaller, and maybe solid. It's all going to depend on what Eibach has for that model car. You always take a chance on Ebay. But it did say 35mm front and 25mm rear tubular. I see several ads for other stores saying the same thing.
Ebay Link - Eibach 35/25mm Tubular Sway Bars
Last edited by samualt; 11-11-2005 at 06:59 PM.
11-11-2005, 07:00 PM
#25
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 422
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Originally Posted by 01 FS Z28
Joe likes his 32/21 combo better because it will allow some rotation. Well, I bet his cars have a stock alignment, and likely stock shocks. A better alignment would gain front grip and give him the balance he seeks and do it without taking any grip from the rear, which is what the 21 rear did a bit off. .
Last edited by Joe 1320; 11-11-2005 at 07:03 PM.
11-11-2005, 07:17 PM
#27
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Brookville, PA
Posts: 715
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Originally Posted by Joe 1320
That's a negative..... the Camaro has -.2º,-3º camber, and Koni shocks. The WS6 runs -.4º,-5º camber and has the 32mm front and 19mm rear with decarbons, Intrax springs.
11-11-2005, 07:29 PM
#28
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Brookville, PA
Posts: 715
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Originally Posted by samualt
01 FS Z28:
Your probably right. But I can only go by what the ad said. See the link below. I figured they might be slightly smaller, and maybe solid. It's all going to depend on what Eibach has for that model car. You always take a chance on Ebay. But it did say 35mm front and 25mm rear tubular. I see several ads for other stores saying the same thing.
Ebay Link - Eibach 35/25mm Tubular Sway Bars
Your probably right. But I can only go by what the ad said. See the link below. I figured they might be slightly smaller, and maybe solid. It's all going to depend on what Eibach has for that model car. You always take a chance on Ebay. But it did say 35mm front and 25mm rear tubular. I see several ads for other stores saying the same thing.
Ebay Link - Eibach 35/25mm Tubular Sway Bars
But 32/21 and 35/25 IMHO are both combinations that have too much rear roll stiffness (and doubly so with poly rear control arm bushings, or really heavy rear springs like G2's, etc.). I know someone will say but 32/21 is a 1LE setup. It is, but only in '93 and that year they included heavier front springs in the package with the STOCK Z28 rear springs. If you go 32/21 on stock springs, or with a set of most lowering springs, you have stiffened the rear more than the front relative to a '93 1LE. There is more to a suspension than individual parts. The suspension is a package and has to work together to get the most from it (and that includes not only grip, but response and ride).
Just watch yourself, and in the future... you might not want to trust Ebay for things like this. It's how mismatches occur. And I spend a lot of my time fixing mistakes in parts, or combinations of parts for folks who bought randomly.
11-11-2005, 08:54 PM
#29
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 422
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
Originally Posted by 01 FS Z28
Ah, well there you have it. You are comparing a car with a decent alignment and Koni's to one with a decent alignment and horrible springs with horrible shocks. The WS6 is bound to be way worse. It's underdamped, and has mystery spring rates (and it's slammed). You weren't exactly comparing apples to apples when you were stated "pick up a 21mm rear. It gave me the ability to get a little lift throttle oversteer. Not enough to cause the car to be out of balance, just enough to bring the rear end a little wider and it immediatly catches when throttle is reapplied. I Like it. My Camaro has the 21mm rear bar and my WS6 doesn't, I swear I like the handling of the Camaro a little better." I'm sure you do like the Camaro a little better. It's got a way better shocks and springs on it. Has less to do with the bars than anything.
Well Sam, I know you are selling parts and that's great. I'll compare apples to apples. The Camaro wasn't as good with the 19 mm rear bar. While balanced, it would still push a hair at the limit. With no other changes, the 21mm bar did what I wanted, so there it is. Was that not what to do based on where the car was at that point.
The WS6 wasn't as good with the stock springs, the Intrax offered me a good ride quality for the street and were not chosed for ultimate track times. Also, the T/A would push as well. The supposed inferior Intrax "mystery rate" springs did drop the car and inprove the handling over what you describe as the way better stock springs. Those supposedly way better springs made the car slower though the same corners than the inferior Intrax (and with less of a ride quality too). It is pretty well balanced, as a matter of fact it sticks really well. I just happen to like the ability of the camaro to give me a little lift throttle line correction. I guess not every person gets the same results and I also suppose there is more than one way to achieve a desired outcome. I want swap the 21mm bar over to the WS6 and if it performs as I expect, I'll be getting a second one. I'm not trying to debate or negate your theories, I'm just stating what worked for my combo. The only part of your theory I don't understand is the stocks springs being superior. I happen to feel the stockers aren't good at all.
I'm not argueing, I really want to know more. regards, Joe
Last edited by Joe 1320; 11-12-2005 at 10:40 AM.
11-12-2005, 11:09 AM
#30
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Location: Brookville, PA
Posts: 715
Re: Sway bar upgrade -front or rear?
To each his own... The improvement you saw from the springs was by way of reduced body roll. You can get that (as you know) from bars. A 35 front, 21 rear with stock springs is IMHO a better handling and riding combination than what you have. I have no issue with a 21 rear bar. I just feel with a 32 front, the 19 is better. I understand you have less understeer with the 21, and you want that. However, how much did you play with you Koni settings? Tire pressures? run -.5 camber etc.
You got better balance by taking grip from the back. I try and make more at the front first to get better balance. The balance can be had either way, but the 35mm bar better controls the roll of the car, and thereby the contact patch of the front tires. It makes the front end more positive feeling and more responsive, and does so without a ride quality hit that springs add.
The WS6 wasn't as good with stock springs as the Z28 is. Of course, but that's primarily due to the fact you have better shocks on the Camaro. That's just what I'd suspect.
The you are looking at my apples to apples statement based only on the bar sizes and how they compare on the two cars. But the cars are not the same. One has Koni's, the other does not. One has lowering springs, the other does not. If they have different tires even an identical suspension would act differently, but much less so. Bars are PART of the suspension, not a stand alone piece. They should be tuned along with springs, shocks, and tire size, as well as alignment. This hasn't happened here.
As for the sales part... just ask around. I'm pretty known for NOT selling a lot of things that folks want. Not because I don't carry it, but because it's usually not needed for the job. I turned a $600 order into a $400 order just yesterday because the combination of parts the person wanted wasn't the right thing to do for him at the time.
You got better balance by taking grip from the back. I try and make more at the front first to get better balance. The balance can be had either way, but the 35mm bar better controls the roll of the car, and thereby the contact patch of the front tires. It makes the front end more positive feeling and more responsive, and does so without a ride quality hit that springs add.
The WS6 wasn't as good with stock springs as the Z28 is. Of course, but that's primarily due to the fact you have better shocks on the Camaro. That's just what I'd suspect.
The you are looking at my apples to apples statement based only on the bar sizes and how they compare on the two cars. But the cars are not the same. One has Koni's, the other does not. One has lowering springs, the other does not. If they have different tires even an identical suspension would act differently, but much less so. Bars are PART of the suspension, not a stand alone piece. They should be tuned along with springs, shocks, and tire size, as well as alignment. This hasn't happened here.
As for the sales part... just ask around. I'm pretty known for NOT selling a lot of things that folks want. Not because I don't carry it, but because it's usually not needed for the job. I turned a $600 order into a $400 order just yesterday because the combination of parts the person wanted wasn't the right thing to do for him at the time.