I have had one problem with them, My last set was Bosh Plat 4's. Kept them for two years until the car began to misfire on only one cylinder between 1500 and 2200 rpms. It felt as a vibration while going above 65mph I think it was worst at 75mph.

I thought my opty was going bad. One night I reved her up a bit after a fresh start and there it was. Solid misfire on one cylinder only.

I replaced them with NGK TR55's. Problem solved.


I have had Taylor Spiro Pro wires for over two years and I have no complaints. Theyve been there for over two years now.


Marvin

 

I use the TR55's and Stock wires. The Taylors and others just are not worth the hassle. Having a Low resistence is not always the best thing as it does not allow the coil to have enough saturation time to release the best possible spark.

Having a specified higher resistance in the wire increases the capacitance of the coil which will deliver a much hotter spark than with a lower resistance wire.

Just thought this may help you guys with the aftermarket wires and a missfire problem. Look at the shop manual. It will specify a minimum resistance for the ignition system. The coil's output is based upon this and needs this for proper operation throughout its designed rpm range.

Regards,

 

I'm a bit confused on how different spark plug wires can increase or decrease the capacitance of the coil? It doesnt even release the spark energy into the wires until it makes contact, and until then the wires aren't part of the curcuit...and the coil should be be reaching maximum capacitance (this is way oversimplified I think) before it even makes contact...?

 

You are correct but to a certain degree, the ignition energy stored by the coil still has to jump the air gap. It actually doesn't jump but ionizes the air between electrodes. This is why low resistance plugs such as iridium and platinum perform better than a standard copper core plug.

If you are familiar with coilpack ignition systems such as the new Coil on plug designs or the earlier GM/Buick coil packs, the use of low tension wires would often result in a complete breakdow of the coilpack and an inability to fire the fuel air mixture. A simple change to a carbon cored wire would fix the problem.

I learned most of this while racing a Buick Grand National back in the day. I thought by sticking on a set of Moroso low resistance wires, I would improve the power by more spark. Man, was I ever wrong!! At anything over 10 psi of boost, the spark was so weak, the engine would not run. It just bucked and popped.

I measured the wire's resistance and found the Moroso's were less than 100 ohms per foot. Not bad if you are using a standard distributor and a MSD... the factory wires measured around 340 ohms per foot. I put the factory wires back on and instantly could push my 21 psi of boost with no problems.

Further experience with this was when I ran an Electromotive distributorless ignition system on a Toyota Supra. Again, I wanted some cool looking wires... so I bought a set of white Taylor wires to match the white car. The engine would hardly run. I contacted Electromotive and was told to remove the Taylors and install a set of Autozone crap wires. The ran great!! Wires looked like A$$!!

Over the years I have been building Dodge Vipers and using the Magnecor wires. These are the only sets that I have found to work with coil-pack ignition systems without any detriment to power delivery. However, for the minute gain, stock wires run just as good and the cost difference is not worth the expense.

Just my .02c

 

TR-55s plugs and MSD 8.5 wires... I have always used this setup on my Camaro's and have never had a problem...

 

I'm still a bit confused...yes it needs to "jump the gap" but this doesn't affect how the coil stores energy up until that point...and there are a lot of GN guys running Taylor/MSD/whatever wires into the 11's and 10's on large amounts of boost with no problems...the low resistance wires allow spark energy to travel better through the wire. I don't understand how low resistance = low spark.

Also, as far as I know the main reasoning behind platinum and iridium plugs is they last longer due to better electrode material. Any less resistance you have at the tips themselves I would think would be offset by the fact that you have to jump a spark through a dense air/fuel mixture

Not trying to discount your posts, but I just still can't see it.

 

I can understand your questioning this. We have been taught that in simple terms the arc jumps a gap. This is simply not true in electrical terms. I back this up with years of electrical training on Aviation ignitors and other very high capacitive systems used on turbines and reciprocating engines. I build custom Experimental aircraft for a living and have an in depth knowledge of these systems and how resistance changes performance.

Not only do we have to calculate how our performance is on the ground but at altitude during a much different density and pressure.

I would also bet that most people running a GN into the 10s and 11s are not using the stock coil alone. As you will note in my previous post... most that are making it work are using an MSD or other supplement ignition system.

 

I am curious as of how does this happen. The saturation at the coil has to do with the time the ignition keeps DC voltage fed into the primary coil. When the Ignition cuts the voltage almost instantaneusly then the coils stored magnetic energy collapses and it releases all the MAGNETIC energy Stored in the Core as a hight voltage spike at the secondary coil. The wires are not energized until this moment happens and are not part of the whole equation yet. (to my present knowledge).

Also in the opticrap and Old style distributors there is no direct conection betwen the contact in the rotor and contacts for the cylinders... the spark has to jump each time through the air gap. The wires are a passive device part of the ignition so they are not applying any load while the coil is being saturated that i know of.
They are infact disconected from the coil at this moment, unless there is an out of control high voltage oscillation being fed back to the secondary of the coil (sparking back into the coil through the airgap at the distributor) but then if this is the case whats keeping the high voltage sparking back into the coil? There is not active device feeding voltage back that I know of at this point.

I have posted why I believe the magnetic core wires may not transfer all the energy from the coil to the sparkplugs but it has nothin to do with drainin the coil of energy nor keeping it from gettin saturated. It has to do with the magnetic inductance of the wire itself. (the wire core is an inductor itself) and located in series with the spark plugs it will magnetically dampen the high voltage spike if it happens at a given voltage rise frequency (not related to RPMs by the way). By dampening the voltage spike it was effectevely reducing the electromagnetic energy radiated as airwaves. Therefore it was pretty logical for me to assume it was also reducing the Actual voltage delivered to the spark plugs (as a high frequency spike that is) Now your experience is that the wires are keeping the coil from reachin saturation and that is what I am curios about
How did you find out the coil was not gettin saturated? Did you notice a high voltage drop at the secondary of the Coil? or was it just at the spark plugs?


Also David... I am curios about this one too.....

Having a specified higher resistance in the wire increases the capacitance of the coil which will deliver a much hotter spark than with a lower resistance wire.


Sounds like you saying "more power is transmited if the resistance is higher at the wires" Correct me if I am wrong but doesnt it defeat the laws of physics?? If that was the case I would find the highest resistance wire I could get to conect my car battery to the starter... that way I would transfer more power right?

what ever happened to Power = Voltage X Intensity?

using Ohms law Resistance equal voltage divided intensity.
If I have 10 volts and a 1 ohm resistance I can pass 10 amps
through it with translates into 100 watts of power.

Using the same 10 volts and using a higher resistance as in your writing states.... in this case a nice round 100 Ohms I can only pass 0.1 amp.

using the power formula P = 10volts times .1 amps
equals to 1 watt or a loss of power of one hundred fold. Now you understand why I am so confused about your post.

I did a search online about electronic formulas and they havent changed..... I am very confused here.


In my twenty years or so since I took it up as a hobby to learn electronics I have never heard anyone refering to a transformer (the coil is a transformer) as being capacitive. I know in every circuit there will be a spurios capacitive losses. Transistors, mosfets, Diodes Triacs etc. In my years of readings and hobbies I always knew the transformer/coil is an Inductive device. It converts the primary sigal into an electromagnetic field and then it transfers it to the secondary coil. The voltage output is related to the Secondary to primary coil wire turns ratio. It will store energy as an electromagnetic field (inductive) as opposed to store it quemically as in the case of an actual capacitor. Also the magnetic energy is almost instantanueously lost when the power is removed from the transformer contacts while the Capacitor will store the energy for long periods of time unless its depleted by a resistance/load across its terminals or internal loses.

I havent kept up with electronics and dont read as much as I used to but have things changed now and a transformer is no longer and inductive device but a Capacitative device??? Just like a Capacitor?

I am curios and I want to cach up with things. I am not challenging your findings I am more wanting to know more about this magnetic wires problems. Regardless of how the energy is lost I always suspected the wires had a very high impedance when the coil was firing up. Because the frequency at which the coil fires up or better said the voltage/rise time. Do you have an Oscilloscope? I.ve always wanted to trace this voltage path using one and if I am right then let everyone know that low impedance at Direct Voltage does not translate to Low impedance at Alternating Voltage. Or at least have a way to prove it to them.



Marvin

 

This is correct it ionizes the air between the electrodes but do you know what Ions are?

they are an atom or a group of atoms that CARRIES a positive or negative electric charge as a result of having lost or gained one or more electrons. (just like it happens in a conductor wire) Also known as a charged subatomic particle and also known as a free electron/s. My description is** Electricity gone wild!** (grin)


So when you say it ionizes the air between the electrodes in esence its like saying it converts the air or gas in between the electrodes as a conductor (much like a wire). The energy transfered to ground through this conductor produces heat. The hotter the heat the stronger the spark will be. The very same effect as lightning... only we dont hear the thunder caused by the instantaneous air expansion that happens when the air is heated to over 10 thousand degrees.... (now guys I know what you thinking, we are not talking long tubes or loudmouths here)


So I guess its up to each one of us to decide whats right.... does it jump?? or doesnt it? if the air is ionized and it becomes a voltage path then its not really jumping but then it sure looks like it does, doesn it?


God I have way too much time in my hands...... I better go to sleep now.

Nite nite guys

Marvin

 

Okay Marvin, You Win.... I would have to come up with some serious BS to top that. In my experience what I can say is that you visit the Electromotive website and read about the ignition systems as they have it posted there. I wish I could stop my day enough to elaborate where I made my deductions from, but I am on a deadline with an airplane that has to be completed.

Yes, I know Ohm's law. Yes, some of the things I stated do not make sense to me, but what I was looking for is people who have had the same experience. On my Fords, i have always gone with the lowest resistance wires possible. On my GN and Coilpack Supra it just didn't work. The Viper was also a problematic child with low resistance wires. The resistance values were what was explained to me by Electromotive and it made sense....

So, when it came time to install wires on my Camaro, I just bought the stock ones and went with the TR55s.

Humbly Stepping Down....

 

taylor 8mm spiro pro wires and ac delco plats

 

Accel 9000 Extreme wires with Autolite 103's.

 

David bro.. listen. I actually agree with you in the sense that the magnetic core wires are the reason why you get less juice to the plugs. The irony of this whole thing is that the magnetic core is made to supress the radio frequencys the non resistive wires were so prone to. They are noise supression magnetic cores... they DAMPEN voltage spikes. Unfortunately our inginition starts with a voltage spike. My guessing here is that they are supposed to give you a lower voltage but longer spark at the plug. When you combined a supercharger. the increased density in the chambers made the wires absorve most of the the power at the core and convert it into a magnetic field.... I am guessing at one point the spark voltage was so low it would not longer ingnite your mixture. That can be easily proven using Ohms law and some Inductance formulas... it just make complete sense.

I believe your wires are the culprit yes...I am with you on that and I just dont believe the coil saturation is the problem... I really want an oscilloscope or a high voltage meter to prove that in fact all the energy is being absorbed by the wires.


I didnt mean to alienate you man, I wanted to tell you why I was getting all confused.

If I get a hold of a way to test my theory I will post it in here. I am in the process of field testing a little devise that turns the fans on and off at preset engine temperatures. Its all electronics and reads off the Coolant Temp Sensor without disrupting its readings and actuates the fans independently of the PCM. Its a very simple design yet it can work with any if not all the current Temp Controlled Fans out there today, since its adjustable.

My next project will be to test an automotive ignition voltage right at the coil and then at the plug. I wish to prove the Magnetic core wires will not deliver more voltage as people believe they do. I need some High Voltage test probes for this.

Oh and this maybe the best way to prove me wrong too altough I can see you having problems with high compression and magnetic core wires.... just like I once predicted they would fail.


Hope you finish your work and have some spare time for yourself there.. have a nice day.

Marvin

 

ok so after all that talk the gist of it is buy NGK TTR55 plugs and keep the stock wireS?

 

That's what I would recommend, and did, SpeC. I used Bluestreak brand wires which are a copy of the GM, fit perfectly, correct resistance, and $80.00 Can. for the nine wires. TR55's only.
To those discussing the coil output ideas, I have this small addition. In the old days, as I am old, we used to start fuel flooded engines, or those with fouled spark plugs, by providing a booster gap. One removes the plug wires and sets the terminal a small distance from the plug top. This adds another air gap, and resistance, that produces a higher firing voltage from the coil, and usually started the engine. Once the plugs were clean, slide the connectors back on.
The idea, as I know it, and I am not an electrical whiz at all, is that the potential energy of the coil ( magnetic field of a particular size collapsing into the secondary wiring ) will dissipate its energy through voltage, time, and current. Increase the resistance, and voltage increases to compensate, while current, and time (duration of the spark) become less. On an oscilloscope this is represented by the number of ocsillations as the coil output decays after the spark extinguishes. An engine with a bad coil wire (like our engines get) produces very few oscillations. The correct resistance in the wire forces the coil into producing a higher voltage to establish the spark, and trades duration of spark to do it. Bosch ignition systems for years used solid copper wires which simply did not wear out, and a phenolic plug connector which had a pellet resistor of about 5k ohms. This meant the wire length, or age, did not change the resistance, and the resistance was constant across all wires. Resistor style sparks plugs also introduce another resistance in the secondary, and their use shows up in comparison to a non-resistor plug as a higher firing voltage.
If resistance was not needed in the secondary we could all just use white lamp cord to run the voltage to the plug. And if we did the engine would not run.