sorry to go off on a tangent here.........but i was checking out that http://www.vincihiperformance.com that lt1brutus posted, since they are located near me.


this is friggin rediculous.

their ls1 stage 2 package :

intake
exhaust (doesnt mention anything about headers but might be included)
cooling upgrades (probably thermostat and fan mods)
dynotune

dynod 317 rwhp

$3250 installed.



WTF!!!!!!!!!!!.........thats ALOT of money for such minor mods.

 

LS1's are like medical services-
no price is rediculious

 

trey are you for real?? LS1 is that expensive to mod?? i'll be damned....

 

well i know how much those parts cost indivudually, and its just rediculous.


how about their LT1 package:

VHP AIR INTAKE PACKAGE
INSTALL LARGER VHP THROTTLE BODY
VHP HIGHER RATIO ALUMINUM ROLLER ROCKERS & SPECIAL HIGH REV KIT
VHP LOW RESTRICTION EXHAUST SYSTEM
VHP MODIFIED COOLING PACKAGE
VHP UNDERDRIVE POWER PULLEY PACKAGE
VHP BILLET ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR
DYNO/TUNE ON DYNOJET CHASSIS DYNAMOMETER

286 rwhp

INSTALLED PRICE: $4999.00


hmm.....

intake $200
TB $300 (also unnecessary on a motor without heads/cam)
RR's, springs, pushrods, etc $700
Exhaust $350
Thermostat and fan switch $100
Pulley kit $150
Fuel pressure reg $130

thats assuming you bought all the stuff seperately......im sure if you bought it all at once place, they would give you a bit of a discount.

but thats still about $2000 or less.


so they are chargin $3000 for install and dyno tune?

uh......someone explain that to me.

 

You're assuming a 20% loss through the drivetrain and I don't have much trouble buying that. Depending on the converter, tranny, rearend and everything it just might be that high. I think Fred posted some results along that line with a TH400 and 12 bolt.

On the example I mentioned.......
Yes it was 550 flywheel hp at ~6000 rpm. This engine was a TPIS MiniRam setup fuelie small block but that doesn't really make too much difference (carb vs fuel injection). I was also using Accel DFI fwiw.
The cam in my setup was 236/242 on the comp Xtreme lobe and a 112 lsa. Contrary to popular belief in the "too big" a cam crowd, that cam idled pretty well with about 11.5" of vacuum at 800 rpm. The heads were AFR 195s mildly ported by a gentleman at Speedway Engine Development. The rest of it was nothing too fancy.

I draw a line and kinda hold two different theories based just on my experience.
One, is that a street engine isn't a race engine.
Two, that bigger is better in racing.... doesn't always hold true for the street. I think alot of people try to blur the line there and that's cool if that's what you want. I flirted with that stuff too when I was a bit younger.
In racing you can't have too much head. Then again, "too much" is an ambiguous term. What's too much? Runner volume don't mean jack. You can take two heads of the same volume on the exact same motor and they will perform differently. Seen it with my own two eyes. There's more to it than that... if you ever talk to Chuck on the subject he'll tell you that it comes down to the minimum cross section area and that he is always most converned with velocity through that area. He pretty much works the port from there as I understand it. The amount of port taper and all that depends on what the engine needs but the height of the port should always be as high as possible and the valve angle as flat as possible. That's where the LS1/LS6 heads shine and the same thing is seen in all the race heads.

The "you can never have too much head" statement is probably not far from the truth but I'm sure there is more behind that statement than just that. Doesn't really matter... the main thing is that you get the heads in the hands of a guy who knows what to do with them.
My 254 cc 15 degree heads were filled in at the runner floor. Were they too big for my goal? Well, I let the expert make that decision for me and guess what... the engine makes the power exactly where that gentleman told me it would and I can guarantee you the torque curve is better than it would have been if I had just used the head as it was and cammed it for that rpm. I made that mistake on my race cars one time and they were stones.
Do you have "enough" head? Yeah.
Do you have enough cam? Yeah, no question about that.
Will it make the power you need? Well it should be able to by 6500 rpm! If not then the combination is not as good as it could be and you may very well need more revs to make up for it. That's just the way I look at it though.

Get the heads to someone who knows their stuff and you'll be way ahead of the game.

~~~~~~~

On the LS cost thing... yeah, that is a bit ridiculous. A heads/cam LS1 should have no problem churning out 450 rwhp or better. Even on a mild cam.

This price jacking is typical of tuners though. Look at the stuff going on from the BMW, Mercedes and Viper tuners.... sickening.

-Mindgame

 

Mindgame, I kinda misinterpreted what I meant. It drives me nuts that he can't put that power to the ground, but its fun as helll to watch him try!!! I hit 13.646 on my car back in the day w/ the stock torque converter, slipping tranny, and 245/50ZR Daytons w/ a 97.2mph trap speed. People couldn't believe it, but that car hook'd on the line. The stall was a big sluggish along w/ the 2.73s, but that gave the tires just enough time to get rolling so I didn't shock them into spinning. If I'm pushing 1,000hp I'd better be getting into the 7's. There's a Mustang LX down here w/ a twin turbo setup and the car looks DEAD FRIGGIN stock. He drives it EVERY day and puts down 17mpg. ON street tires w/ the suspension dialed in for street driving it'll go 10.8 @???mph spinning and fishtailing the whole way. W/ MTs on there (I think 26") it goes 8.1s-8.3s depending on what he's playing w/ on tuning suspension etc. THAT is what I'd like.

As for GOT_hp...I never said he was cheap. 99% of the people I've met agree that he is overpriced, I'd NEVER pay his prices but back in the day, he paid my rent. Check out his credentials though. Crane Cams uses HIS 'vette in their advertisements as well as a Camaro he's tuned. For the $$ he'll do good work and stand behind it. If you go out and figure out how to break it, he won't turn his nose up and say you abused it. There's a lot of little things in his packages that he doesn't list and his theory is "If I'm gonna build a car that I KNOW someone intends to beat on, then I'm gonna make sure they can beat the [snot] out of it, get the performance they expected, and a motor that lives a long happy life."

 

This is sounding more and more like Advanced Tech.

My 396 is a puzzee. I need some ported AFR 210s

Mike