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-   -   Suggestions for heads with stock cam (https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/lt1-based-engine-tech-9/suggestions-heads-stock-cam-859706/)

Axeslinger0u812 04-12-2012 02:37 AM

Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Ok, after getting the car completely put back together after changing the opti out, the thing would not circulate coolant, and was building pressure in the coolant lines. Not to mention the wonderful white steam coming from the pipes. After pulling the heads off to change the gaskets (assuming it was a head gasket issue), the gaskets checked put fine, but there appears to be a crack in the head. I was planning on changing them anyway, but was thinking the cam would be first. This wrenched that idea, and now I'm looking for some suggestions on heads that will work with a stock cam for the time being. Not looking for anything crazy, as it's a daily driver, but something that will get it running again with the potential for a good amount of power when I can get around to changing the cam. Trick flow's are looking decent, and I'm liking the price. Would those work? Anything $1500 and less is pretty much where I'm at, as we just bought our first house, and I can't go any higher than this,and I need it running by may 1st.

I'm pretty sure they are stock heads, but if they weren't, how could I find that out?
1996 z28, MSD coil, headers and exhaust mods (not sure exactly what they are)

95zsean 04-12-2012 08:02 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
These are a great head under your budget too!

https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/par...-heads-856206/


Here's the builders website:

http://elliottsportworks.com/?page_id=51

96capricemgr 04-12-2012 08:18 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
I would just get a used set of stock heads. Ported stock heads are the best choice for most builds

If you really want to buy a new aftermarket casting I would look at the Trickflow 21 degree because it has a small chamber.

Axeslinger0u812 04-12-2012 03:43 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Thanks for the replies guys. It looks likeon Elliot's site I could get those le1's with a cam and better springs for about $1500. Anyone know anything about these, or is anyone else running them?

I also looked up refurbished lt1 heads, and came up with cleggs machine shop. I don't know anything about them, so I was wondering if anyone on here had any experience with the shop and whether refurbished heads would be a good idea?

96capricemgr 04-12-2012 06:30 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
The LE1 is a porting SERVICE you need good heads to start with

Axeslinger0u812 04-12-2012 07:13 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Ah, ok. Must've misread it. I have a hard time trusting used/refurbished stuff, and do if anyone knows a reputable dealer, I would be perfectly happy putting stock heads back on. If not, I think I may go with those trick flow 21 degs. If I can find them in stock somewhere, lol.

96capricemgr 04-12-2012 07:37 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Summit owns Trickflow so don't look too hard.

Far as missread. He did give you a link to the classifieds section where someone was selling them.
I would not bother with low level porting on heads though because then they are not worth doing over again to do right.
If you don't want to trust stock used stuff then look at the 21degree Trickflow.

If you decide you are willing to try used stock stuff then with your time constraints just use them stock and save up for a full port job later.

95zsean 04-12-2012 07:39 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
The heads I gave you a link to are without a core. Robsquikz28 are already done so there's no waiting and you only have to pay for shipping one way!! Lloyd has some of the best port work for LT1's!!! I have a old set of his LE2's with 2.00/ 1.56 valves and the work great. Search and you'll see LOTS of people use his stuff.

Axeslinger0u812 04-12-2012 08:46 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Trick Flow Specialties TFS-30400010 - Trick Flow® GenX® 195 Cylinder Heads for GM LT1 - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Could I run these without forced induction? They're the only ones summit has in stock that aren't edelbrock and in my peace range. If not, I may be grabbing those le1's, as I'm not finding any good stock replacements.

96capricemgr 04-12-2012 08:52 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Trouble with those is the chamber is really big and will drop compression down fairly significantly. You could run them but they really aren't the best option for a naturally aspirated stock shortblock.

You might contact Golen, I know at one point he had some "new" OEM LT1 castings, if they are bare you could have they assembled locally with your existing hardware.

Orr89rocz 04-13-2012 10:51 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
I dont understand whats the concern here. Do the heads you want now for the power you wish to have down the road, then swap the cam.

You can put any set of heads on stock motor with stock cam and still have good performance once retuned for it.

Guys have reported 30-40hp gains with stock cams on L98 motors after changing to heads like AFR 195's and similar. LSx guys have done stock cams and heads and made big power.

So look at the future cam swap, decide how big you want to go and get a head now that will fit that. Put them on, and retune and enjoy :)

If you'd be happy with 340-360whp in a cam only setup then just find a good set of stock heads to replace. If you wanted big numbers 400+whp, get a good set of ported stock castings or aftermarkets

96capricemgr 04-13-2012 11:55 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Don't go trying to use LS and TPI ideas on the LT1.

The only measure result I have seen from ported heads with a stock cam on an LT1 LOST 2hp.

Both of those engines also gain nicely from aftermarket intakes but our direct fit aftermarket intake option seems to possibly LOSE power.

englundjd 04-13-2012 01:55 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Originally Posted by Orr89rocz (Post 6894177)
I dont understand whats the concern here. Do the heads you want now for the power you wish to have down the road, then swap the cam.

You can put any set of heads on stock motor with stock cam and still have good performance once retuned for it.

Guys have reported 30-40hp gains with stock cams on L98 motors after changing to heads like AFR 195's and similar. LSx guys have done stock cams and heads and made big power.

So look at the future cam swap, decide how big you want to go and get a head now that will fit that. Put them on, and retune and enjoy :)

If you'd be happy with 340-360whp in a cam only setup then just find a good set of stock heads to replace. If you wanted big numbers 400+whp, get a good set of ported stock castings or aftermarkets

LT1's are not LSx or L98's. just throwing heads on a stock LT1 wont gain you much.




axeslinger: i would get ahold of those LE1's before they sell if your gona do that... they seem to be popular and there are tons of people that run them. They would be a good head to use to build a fairly stout LT1 down the road.

Orr89rocz 04-13-2012 06:27 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Its a motor like anything else. You act like theres some magic to an LT1. L98 is a LT1 basically with the lack of reverse cooling and different intake. Its a SBC design. You can even use SBC parts on it if you do the conversion :) You can put a LT1 intake on a L98 and gain hp...i've done it with HSR and others done it with minirams which is an LT1 style intake.

Oh and if you didnt realize, L98 aluminum heads are VERY similar to LT1 heads

Have you seen different heads on a stock LT1? Have you personally done it? Even if it does lose 2 hp WHO CARES? its a temporary fix anyway. He's going cam in the future, so WHY CHANGE HEADS 2 times???? Unless you want more work for yourself.....

My friend ran stock LT1 cam in a vortec headed 355 and made close to 300whp with a dual plane carb intake. LT1 cam can work well, I fail to see how the intake causes major problems on the LT1 motor but doesnt seem to have a problem on any other motors using LT1 intakes :)

96capricemgr 04-13-2012 09:44 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
LT1 is not magic but that doesn't mean everything translates exactly either.

joelster 04-14-2012 12:14 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Originally Posted by Orr89rocz (Post 6894245)
Its a motor like anything else. You act like theres some magic to an LT1. L98 is a LT1 basically with the lack of reverse cooling and different intake. Its a SBC design. You can even use SBC parts on it if you do the conversion :) You can put a LT1 intake on a L98 and gain hp...i've done it with HSR and others done it with minirams which is an LT1 style intake.

L98 heads flow around 165cfm and have a dog**** chamber design. They are not even close to LT1 heads.


Originally Posted by Orr89rocz (Post 6894245)
Oh and if you didnt realize, L98 aluminum heads are VERY similar to LT1 heads

Similar in that GM cast them, yes, but that is about it. A stock LT1 will flow around 205-210cfm and has the Vortec or Fast-burn style chamber which itself makes more power.


Originally Posted by Orr89rocz (Post 6894245)
Have you seen different heads on a stock LT1? Have you personally done it? Even if it does lose 2 hp WHO CARES? its a temporary fix anyway. He's going cam in the future, so WHY CHANGE HEADS 2 times???? Unless you want more work for yourself.....

My friend ran stock LT1 cam in a vortec headed 355 and made close to 300whp with a dual plane carb intake. LT1 cam can work well, I fail to see how the intake causes major problems on the LT1 motor but doesnt seem to have a problem on any other motors using LT1 intakes :)

It makes no sense to me to go through all of that labor replacing the cylinder heads, but to leave the stock camshaft in there. The stock camshaft is done by 5500rpm, so having a head that can flow real well up top and not having the valvetrain to support it makes no sense. A cam swap in our cars is a chore to do, but if the heads are off it would take an extra hour.

Orr89rocz 04-14-2012 12:32 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

L98 heads flow around 165cfm and have a dog**** chamber design. They are not even close to LT1 heads.

The irons may not be similar but the aluminums are. If you dont believe me, go ask Lloyd Elliott.

They dont flow 165cfm either... they are closer to 180's for iron and 190's for aluminum. Some have seen as high as 200's. LT1's i've seen anywhere from 200-225cfm. The LT1's are a bit better yes.


It makes no sense to me to go through all of that labor replacing the cylinder heads, but to leave the stock camshaft in there. The stock camshaft is done by 5500rpm, so having a head that can flow real well up top and not having the valvetrain to support it makes no sense. A cam swap in our cars is a chore to do, but if the heads are off it would take an extra hour.
I agree but thats not what the OP asked. He has money to do heads now to fix the gasket issue...which needs done or else he cant drive the car. HE does not have funds for both cam and heads at the same time. In order to fix this, why put on another set of stock heads if he will change them down the road for something better? If you get a head with a proper port design and velocity profile, it will NOT hurt anything by using stock cam. Just because the cam is done by 5500 does not mean it wont pick up power with a larger head. The better the heads, the smaller the cam can be. If you havent done it, then how can you say it wont work? From results I have seen on similar setups, I would be confident in a good running car with stock cam and ported heads as long as the heads were ported correctly.

I'd just run 1.6 rockers while your at it to set yourself up for future cam swap that will likely use 1.6 rockers anyway to get lift in the high .500's which will help, deending on the future goals...i'm just assuming here. Maybe he wont need high lift.

If the goals do not require extensive port jobs or if he will be happy with a cam only setup, then put stock heads back on. To me it sounded like the OP was dead set on heads cam down the road for a stout LT build.

And I have a 4th gen, I can see how extensive the cam swap would be but its really not all that bad.

joelster 04-14-2012 12:50 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Originally Posted by Orr89rocz (Post 6894427)
The irons may not be similar but the aluminums are. If you dont believe me, go ask Lloyd Elliott.

They dont flow 165cfm either... they are closer to 180's for iron and 190's for aluminum. Some have seen as high as 200's. LT1's i've seen anywhere from 200-225cfm. The LT1's are a bit better yes.



I agree but thats not what the OP asked. He has money to do heads now to fix the gasket issue...which needs done or else he cant drive the car. HE does not have funds for both cam and heads at the same time. In order to fix this, why put on another set of stock heads if he will change them down the road for something better? If you get a head with a proper port design and velocity profile, it will NOT hurt anything by using stock cam. Just because the cam is done by 5500 does not mean it wont pick up power with a larger head. The better the heads, the smaller the cam can be. If you havent done it, then how can you say it wont work? From results I have seen on similar setups, I would be confident in a good running car with stock cam and ported heads as long as the heads were ported correctly.

I'd just run 1.6 rockers while your at it to set yourself up for future cam swap that will likely use 1.6 rockers anyway to get lift in the high .500's which will help, deending on the future goals...i'm just assuming here. Maybe he wont need high lift.

If the goals do not require extensive port jobs or if he will be happy with a cam only setup, then put stock heads back on. To me it sounded like the OP was dead set on heads cam down the road for a stout LT build.

And I have a 4th gen, I can see how extensive the cam swap would be but its really not all that bad.

I didn't say it wouldn't work, I said that it makes no sense. It is a lot of labor and money for minimal gain. He has $1500 to spend. Yes he can do heads and cam for $1500.

$1200 for LT1 LE1 heads and any custom billet cam mentioned above.

That gives him a little wiggle room to get himself some cores.

Axeslinger0u812 04-14-2012 05:19 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
I went ahead and bought those le1's that were mentioned earlier. It sounds like a decent set of heads that can do some good things with an added cam in the future. After calling clegg, they had no stock heads available, and i just couldn't bring myself to get the edelbrocks after reading up on them. If I had the time to let the car sit, I definitely would've continued looking for a stock replacement and having them worked on, or grabbing those trick flow 185's. On the whole though, I'm pretty excited about these le1's. Can't wait to get them on and just hear her run again. Hopefully, after this, I can enjoy this site more than constantly being frustrated when I sign on, lol. Thanks for the input guys. Maybe I'll post a video when she's chugging agin.

95zsean 04-14-2012 06:08 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Good move!! You wont be disappointed.

Orr89rocz 04-14-2012 09:19 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Yes the LE1's are a good bang for your buck with the cam. For some reason I was under the impression you only had money for the heads at the moment

Axeslinger0u812 04-15-2012 01:27 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
I do, Lol. But only because my head is cracked and I'm on a time crunch. I'm just getting the le1's for now, so I can get the car running before we move. I'm probably going to call Lloyd later and get the matching cam for it at some point in the future, but yeah, just heads for now.

joelster 04-15-2012 10:51 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Dude, go pick a cam out now. Check the classifieds. SOMEONE will have a hotcam or a comp 503 for under $200. That will get you an honest 30-40hp more right there.

ACE1252 04-15-2012 02:06 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Originally Posted by joelster (Post 6894640)
Dude, go pick a cam out now. Check the classifieds. SOMEONE will have a hotcam or a comp 503 for under $200. That will get you an honest 30-40hp more right there.

Agreed, but the cam will require springs and SA roller rockers at a minimum. If the money is not there to do it right, best to wait and save for the good stuff.

Orr89rocz 04-15-2012 09:08 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
The heads you are getting can be set up with the proper springs now since its not much more money. Infact I thought he already did that on LE1 heads? Rockers that can be abit more pricey but I'd venture to say you could run stockers for abit until you can afford the ones you really need. I think comp cams still makes the magnum roller tip rockers that will work on your heads for under 200 bucks. I ran them on my old L98 self aligning. Good budget rocker that can also get you by on most mild cam setups. More aggressive higher spring pressure stuff may need a better rocker.

May not be optimal but could get you by for awhile.

96capricemgr 04-16-2012 06:56 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
As evident by what the OEMs do roller tip is pointless, fulcrum is where a roller pays off.

Orr89rocz 04-16-2012 07:29 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Yes that may be the case, but for a budget rocker thats better/stronger than stock stamped rockers, the roller tip magnums are hard to beat.

Bersaglieri 04-16-2012 08:47 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Originally Posted by joelster (Post 6894640)
Dude, go pick a cam out now. Check the classifieds. SOMEONE will have a hotcam or a comp 503 for under $200. That will get you an honest 30-40hp more right there.

This. XE502, Hotcam, XE503 all great camshafts for stock bottom end cars. Congrats on getting those LE1 heads, they are a GREAT budget head option.

If you spend money on rockers go full roller rocker. Don't cheap out and get roller tip and don't cheap out and buy junk Proform, Chinese, ebay ones. The lowest I'd go on rockers would be Harland Sharp.

-Dustin-

96capricemgr 04-16-2012 10:25 AM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Originally Posted by Orr89rocz (Post 6894819)
Yes that may be the case, but for a budget rocker thats better/stronger than stock stamped rockers, the roller tip magnums are hard to beat.


Can you document that? How about some stock rocker failure examples?

Orr89rocz 04-16-2012 12:56 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
Havent seen failures in normal applications but its common in racing classes like stock eliminator and such. Have heard from other engine builders that stock stamped rockers will have inconsistant lift ratios and tend to flex if used on higher rpm higher spring pressure systems. Some guys are saying too low of a spring pressure will have the pushrod going thru the rocker arm cup! They've seen it happen in classes requiring stock rockers and stock diameter valvesprings... Too low of pressure and they had failures. Not sure why that is tho.
Some of the stock eliminator guys run typical hyd roller spring pressures and 7500 rpm on stock style rocker arms...using a 7/16" stud rocker made by Elgin specially designed for it. Other stuff would fail.

The magnums are much more beefier by design. You can look at them side by side and see this but even they are limited to certain spring pressures. Even then, some ppl claim to have issues with that style of rocker but I never did on my car.
For all out builds you need a much stronger rocker arm which tend to be full roller types. Most upgrade to those rockers for valvetrain strength and stability which tends to show small hp increases...rather than reduced friction, although that is a factor. Depends on the build but there is little to be gained in going full roller over other versions if keeping ratios the same. These were on more race oriented engines. Some say they see 5-10hp in higher rpms.

Ed Wright said he saw 4rwhp on a stock LT1 with 1.6 full roller aluminums vs stock stamped. But I would think those rockers are much stronger and less prone to a failure. When you throw in aggressive cam lobes, high spring pressures, it makes sense to use stiffer pushrods and stronger rocker arms.

96capricemgr 04-16-2012 01:52 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
I believe most of the street failures you may have heard of were OLDER stuuf which doesn't automatically apply to LT1. If you believe all the old info you can't run anything more than about 180-190 PSI cranking compression on 93 octane but the b-body LT1 cranks 200PSI and is fine with 87 octane and I have run 245psi cranking compression on 93 octane.

Stock eliminators stuff is very interesting but not particularly applicable to basic street stuff.

Far as the rocker ratio again I believe you are miss applying OLD data. I will try and round up the article I saw on it but basically by the time the LT1 was made manufacturing had become MUCH more consistent than it was in the 70s which is where you get your data.

What makes sense to me is is someone is a little short on funds today and looking at a repair like this, instead of dropping $150 on roller tip now why not just run the stockers for a little till one can afford proper full roller? Wasting $150 on a marginal part today is NOT the way to save money.

Far as why too little spring pressure could cause a pushrod to go through a rocker in a RACE situation I would suspect float and the resulting collision of parts. Some guys who run those sort of classes have cams specifically designed to throw the lifter off the nose of the cam to get extra lift at mid to high rpms. It is called lofting.

ACE1252 04-16-2012 01:52 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Originally Posted by 96capricemgr (Post 6894814)
As evident by what the OEMs do roller tip is pointless, fulcrum is where a roller pays off.

I don't think the roller tip is pointless, I think it boils down to a long term reliability issue for OEM's(cost as well....).

Orr89rocz 04-16-2012 03:15 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 

Far as the rocker ratio again I believe you are miss applying OLD data. I will try and round up the article I saw on it but basically by the time the LT1 was made manufacturing had become MUCH more consistent than it was in the 70s which is where you get your data.
Define old? These were on modern casting aftermarket head sbc's using modern cams and valvetrain. Some using modern replacement stamped rockers and some using those special Elgin ones for class racing. Valve train in a LT1 isnt "more special" than sbc. Its the same 23 deg stuff, similar pushrod layout :) Doesnt matter if its in a old school gen 1 or a gen 2 or a LSx motor. You have spring that controls a valve that has weight. Cam lobe acts upon a pushrod that moves a rocker that opens valves. Geometry may be different due to valve angles but the concepts are the same.

Now rocker arm manufacturing may have come along way and more accurate but until someone measures it, i'd be inclined to say stock rockers will flex on higher pressure/higher rpm situations.

If you find the article, post it up. I'd like to read it


Far as why too little spring pressure could cause a pushrod to go through a rocker in a RACE situation I would suspect float and the resulting collision of parts. Some guys who run those sort of classes have cams specifically designed to throw the lifter off the nose of the cam to get extra lift at mid to high rpms. It is called lofting.
Thats the only thing I could think of, float causing collision of parts and more pressure cured that. Still a bandaid. Only reason they use those parts is because of class rules. No sense in doing that in a street build. Use the proper rocker


What makes sense to me is is someone is a little short on funds today and looking at a repair like this, instead of dropping $150 on roller tip now why not just run the stockers for a little till one can afford proper full roller? Wasting $150 on a marginal part today is NOT the way to save money.
True, but it will depend on how long the setup is run like that. If only for a little while I guess it wouldnt matter much but if its a good ways out, then i'd be alittle more concerned. Reason I suggested the cheap magnums is you can always resell them and get most of your money back. I know I did.

But it seems that doing heads only on stock cam you can run stock rockers no problem and when you are ready for the cam, do rockers then at the same time.

I've never done anything that way. I always did everything at once so it was done one time only. It may take alittle longer and have more down time but its worth it IMO.

joelster 04-17-2012 06:44 PM

Re: Suggestions for heads with stock cam
 
My 350 with the big XFI468 cam uses Comp Magnum roller tip rockers 1.6 ratio. I've never had a problem, and have never reset the lash since the initial install. They've seen near 7k countless times. They are a very beefy rocker for a stamped steel piece.


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