Ok, so here's where I'm at. After blowing up 2 shortblocks from too much timing. I'm selling my supercharger kit (along with lots of spare parts), in order to pay for a new build. My plans are to go with the Eagle ESP 4340 forged crank w/3.875" stroke, 6" Eagle H-beam 4340 rods, and SRP pistons (havn't decided on dish yet). I havn't taken my block into the machine shop yet to talk about how much if any, I'll have it decked. Anyways, here's the deal. I'm expecting to only have enough money to pay for the forged internals/machine work, the neutral balanced flexplate & dampner i'll need, etc etc.

I won't have money to get the heads I want (LE2's or something comparable) for a while. But I'd like to do something with the valvetrain to help these stock heads flow a bit more until I get the new ones. So my question is, what could I do for about $300.00 to help perk this up? Should I get some 1.6 rr's and hope the stock valve springs hold up, or is their a cam/spring combo I could purchase for this kinda money that's worth a damn? Or should I not do anything, just suck it up, and run the stock heads and valvetrain until I can afford the parts I really need?

If I don't spend any money on rr's, cam, etc.. that leaves me more money to go into a better Timing gear set or dampner..(side note) any recommendations on a Timing gear set? I don't need the best on the market, I just need something strong enough for my application. I'm looking to get above the 400RWHP mark (to as high as I can go) with the help of new heads, when my budget allows it.

Partial mod list: Hooker Long-Tube Super Comp's, EWP, Crane Cams Hi-6, taylor 10.4mm wires, MSD coil.

Just curious what you're thoughts are. Thanks again,

Andrew

 

You'd be better saving the money you'd spend on the bottom end and building a stock crank/rods 355 with good pistons and then putting an LE2 or similar setup on it.

 

Nope. I'm deadset on the all forged bottom end. I'm not deadset with the 396 (may opt for 383), or compression ratio yet (thinking 12:1), but those are things I'll decide a lil' farther down the road. I want a bottom end I can grow with. I've done stock stuff 3 times now in the past year. Round 4 I'm going this route. Just something I've wanted to try for a while. In a year or so I imagine I'll be trying for a big gain in hp either through head/intake work, or nitrous, and don't want stock internals biting me in the *** again.

My question isn't very direct...maybe I'll do some more searching on cam options, and post a more detailed question. I searched and couldn't find what lift the stock valve springs are good to? So if anyone knows off hand, please post. I may just buy some RR's I can use down the road, and just pop them on now. But I'd rather get some springs I'm not worried about breaking, and a cam that'll get me down the road a lil' better. Thanks for you're help...

 

If you are deadset on a large cid bottom end then save your money for the top end. If you put stock heads on a large displacement engine it'll feel like a real turd especially in the upper rpm. Bascially you won't be doing yourself any good if the flow/breathing characteristics do not accomodate the demand.
A stock bottom end car w/ healthy heads/cam will ALWAYS outperform a larger cid engine with a lacking top end.
I'm all for the biggest displ. if you dare, but you will be dissappointed if you don't let that thing flow.

 

I would probably recommend a 383 just because the parts are a bit more "Conventional." How fast do you want to go?

 

Good info...well I'm doing this with a spare block I have sitting in my garage. So if needed I can postpone the install of this new motor until I can afford the top-end. But would rather get it in, even w/stock heads. I'm driving on a wounded stock block right now. So, turd or not, if it runs sound I'll swap it in for now, and pull it again when I have heads. One thing that's free to me, is my own labor, so lot's of it doesn't bother me. What if I had some port work done to a spare set of heads, would that be a better route than bandaiding it with rr's or a temp cam setup?

Making power right off the bat is not a requirement for me right now. But if I could perk up this setup for the time being for 3-$500, I'd like to do it...

Thanks,

 

The bottom line is what are you trying to accomplish? You can achieve 430rwhp with LT1 castings and hydraulic cam in a 355 with decent driveability and the right supporting parts. In my mind this would be better than 280rwhp poor-performing 383 or 396.

The ultimate question is what is the endpoint? If you want a lot more power or plan on spraying a large shot on top of whatever the car makes N/A, then maybe a stroker is in order...but even then you have to remember you will be into this motor and the supporting parts for WELL OVER $10,000 before you ever surpass that 430rwhp mark that you could have made with a 355 and ~$5,000. Are you ready for this type of investment? Most people aren't. Just go on to the classifieds and read about all the cars for sale that are "10-second capable" they just need "this part or that part" and "will run 10's, etc".

Having dumped a TON of money myself, it gives you a different perspective. Set your HP goals then build the lowest cost setup given those goals that will reliably perform at that level.

 

Well, it's the same price and comes clearanced. The fact that it's a lil' out of the ordinary makes it more attractive. I was going to run everything by the machine shop/engine builder, see what they think, before I order parts. Long run I'd like to be able to grow to 700FWHP....It'll be with a power adder. I'm thinkin' something that likes compression...lookin' like nitrous...

Now: build the bottom end, run stock heads. It'll prolly take me 6-12 months to gather the funds to dump into heads/valvetrain. I figure LE2 (or equivalent) heads and Cam ontop of this. I have all supporting mods needed except for the valvetrain. Is this thinking flawed? A 396 with high flow heads is the direction I want to go, with room to grow (i.e. power adder). Thanks again for all the feedback...this is extremely helpful...

 

It'll feel like poo, but if you plan on upgrading then go for it.

 

Nothing wrong with what you're planning IMHO....a 396 with stock heads won't make the peak numbers or ET that a ported head 355 would make but that's not what you're after at this point. Not at all a good plan for a "finished" motor but all that low end torque will be lots of fun until you can complete the build and get the flow you need to build power up top. Wish people would slow down and pay attention to what's being asked...

To answer your question about valvetrain, I'm not positive about max lift on stock springs but the LT4 springs max out at .525 lift. Stock Lt1 springs will be somewhat less than that, but I don't recall the exact number....
For a cheap valvetrain upgrade, you could go with LT4 springs ($32 from SDPC) and CC Magnum 1.6 rockers (they are not full rollers like the Pro Mags, just roller tip and run $180ish from Summit). If you stay with the self-aligning setup, you can throw in some inexpensive but adequate pushrods and be under $300 after shipping. This setup will work fine with the stock or LT4 Hotcam as well as a few other mild off-the-shelf grinds. Alternatively, you could get the whole LT4 Hotcam kit for around $500ish, which includes the cam, springs, and full roller rockers.
For my money though, I would spend it on as much head work as the budget allows and leave the valvetrain stock until you have funds to do all the topend stuff at once. I say this for several reasons:
1. To do a max-effort street/strip 396 that'll breathe at or above 5 - 5.5k, you'll prolly want to go with well-ported aftermarket heads (AFRs, TrickFlows, or maybe even some converted SBC heads) with a heavily ported intake and a solid roller cam (not "required" but you'd be leaving 20+ hp on the table staying hydraulic, plus setting lash periodically can be kinda fun ).
2. At a minimum, you'll want to have whatever final head configuration you end up with flow tested and have a custom cam ground to match the flow characteristics of the heads (custom cams aren't much more expensive than off-the-shelf and are well worth the extra $$)
3. All this will require new springs for certain and likely you'll want to upgrade lifters, pushrods, rockers, etc. beyond what your budget allows right now, which would have you paying for it all twice
4. Doing some minor porting to the stock heads will likely yield more power and driveability than upgrading the valvetrain, assuming what you have can be reused

On a slightly different note, you mentioned 12:1 compression and seem to be leaning toward nitrous after your recent blower experiences, however there's another option worth mentioning. If you keep the static compression sane (below 11:1) and hang on to your blower, when you have funds for the topend, just throw some Trickflow heads on with 76cc chambers and possibly a thicker headgasket. This would drop the static compression to a blower-friendly level and you could have a cam custom ground to work with the heads and get the dynamic compression (DCR) where it needs to be. This is what I'm planning for mine, only difference being a 383 instead of 396 due to the higher wrist pin (thinner ring langs) on standard 396 pistons and the unwanted cost of custom pistons. Just a thought....

 

Awesome response...

Some headwork seems to be the logical choice. I have OEM valvetrain that's in great condition, and plus I'll be able to recoupe some costs of the headwork when I go to sell them after the purchase of the final heads. BTW, thanks for asnwering my question in regards to springs/cams.

Keeping the comp ratio low is some food for thought. I'll have to sit down and decide if a blower will be something I'll want to try again down the road.

Thanks,

Andrew

 

Yea, I guess if you go all forged, then the costs to build would be about the same between the 383 and 396. I just built a 396 myself and honestly, a 383 will make just as much power if you plan on staying with the LT1 style head. I've heard this from several people, and even seen it now on the dyno, the air requirements for the 396 are really too big for the ported castings. The guys making big power with the big inches are mostly running converted heads and a single plane with an elbow. It's very likely that you will run into the water jacket when clearancing for the rods at the oil pan rails. Also, a stroker pan is necessary or you can weld and grind on your stock pan to fit if you wanted to. The 396 really limits the piston selection if you want to stay realistic with the costs. You have to be careful with compression ratios and the 396 too. Just some things to consider. For God's sake, at least get some springs on that thing.