5thgen69camaro

Not only that but there is the question of intent. For me that is the biggest suggestive factor. Remember the ZL1 was to be the Z28 up till the last minute where ZL1 won out and Im paraphrasing I think it was Scott here, because it was more or less decided "Z28 shouldnt have all those those options."

So I fully believe at least at that time the Z28 was intended for the 5th gen. Then the 1LE came up which I think is the perfect moniker for that car. But then why was the Z28 badge passed up for 1LE if it was the last chance to use the Z28 badge? I see 1LE as Mustang GT track pack competition not Boss. At least in spirit. I have a hard time swallowing GM themselves believes the car too heavy or doesnt fit a Z28 trim level moniker.

The Boss 302 being practically a race motor that doesnt seem to be on even keel with the Stock Camaro LS3 at all. And that is a compliment to the BOSS 302 not a slight on the LS3. Now the Boss 302 vs a Z28 ala 1LE LS7 and you got even competition, the Z28 name gets used proper (definately in my mind anyway)

Anything can happen and things can change last minute but that is my guess.

Dan Baldwin

Hoping they save "Z28" for something a LOT smaller and at least 400 lb. lighter-weight than the 5th gen. Waiting on the 6th gen...

HAZ-Matt

In the Motor Trend comparison you brought up the test driver was not completely enamored with the Boss's behavior in bumpy sections of the track. Makes some sense as they had adjusted the dampers to full stiff.

Adding 300lbs just to have a bit better weight distribution doesn't seem like it should really be the key to victory.

All in all, maybe this mythical Camaro could indeed beat the Boss with better acceleration and better braking, but I still remain unconvinced that it will outcorner it.

TOO Z MAXX

Certified by who? And really how much work would it take to get another V8 certified? Does anyone here actually know whats involved in getting it certified?

AdioSS

I still wonder why GM never did attempt to do a mass produced, Titanium free version of the LS7. Limit RPM to ~6500 & include AFM when equipped with the 6L90E. If they were to introduce Direct Injection with this, then it could keep the high static compression ratio or even go higher. That should keep the horsepower & torque output somewhere around the same as the high revving Titanium LS7, if not a bit higher.

I think that would be a hell of an engine for the Z/28 & maybe even a 427SS Silverado?

TomcatMF

Isn't the LS7 made from aluminum?

That being said I think the LS7 would be a perfect fit for a Z28 Camaro.

bossco

All passenger car V8s are aluminum as far as I know, the trucks use cast iron.

Adio was refering the the connecting rod and valve material used in the LS7 so that there is some longvevity to the recipocating assemblies.

guionM

I think a couple of people might agree that I have a pretty decent idea in what is involved in certification.

In short, you put a different engine under the hood, it has to be certified by GM on everything from cooling to emissions to crash testing to electronic to duribility and a whole lot of things in between. In short, you make sure that the engine doesn't have any unexpected consequenses to the rest of the car (example: you don't want a customer to burn down his house because the Z28 in his garage has a differently routed fuel line that tends to stress over time and ruptured over his hot engine 5 minutes after he parked it in his garage).... that's why things must be certified.

Now, keep in mind that GM has only a finite amount of money and engineers. GM (as does any business) has to prioritize and ration it's resources (money and manpower) in a way that maximizes return or at least gets a high amount of value for investment.

GM has an SS that for all purposes has replaced the previous Z28's position in the marketplace. The planned Z28 became the ZL1. The 1LE is the version for the race course. The Camaro is going into it's 4th year, and has probably no more than 2 more after that.

Certifying the V6 and V8 is easy because sales volume makes it worthwhile. Certifying the LSA powered ZL1 was worthwhile because GM charges an extra $22,000 for each one and throw extra hardware and goodies that perhaps actually cost them... say... maybe 5 grand as a sweetner (the same formula Ford's SVT & Chrysler's SRT use....originated with BMW's M series & Mercedes' AMG cars).

Now, look at the idea of creating an LS7 Z28:

1. The engine costs a LOT more to make than the LSA (as mentioned, it's handbuilt and uses many premium parts).
2. Despite having a more power and expensive engine, this proposed Z28 is going to have to sell at the price of a Boss... a mere 7-8K over the SS instead of $22,000 over.
3. The position of this car is covered by existing SS, 1LE, and ZL1 models.
4. This car is going to have a very, very short life span.

Then you look at the engineers you have working on tuning the next Corvette, others putting finishing touches on the next gen V8s, others that are working on the ATSv, and yet others that have been assigned to convert the Alpha chassis into something that makes cost sense for the next Camaro and GM volume sedans. Then you also look at the money you have and the returns on the investment should you pull them off those projects to get an LS7 in Camaro for a 2 year run (at best).

The question then becomes very, very simple: "Is creating and certifying this LS7 Z28 worth pulling engineers off bigger more important projects, and diverting the money to pay for it???"

There is only one answer....... Nope.

The only way a Z28 will happen with the 5th gen is if it's a paint or label package on a SS/1LE with (at most) different computer programming so that they'd be able to advertize a few more horsepower without investing any money or manpower.

That's the only possible Z28 you'd possibly see before the 6th gen.....

.....and that's only if the marketing guys prove it wouldn't simply canibalize SS sales.

guionM

PS. Wanted to point out that the Boss Mustang uses a redone 5.0 engine, so the certification involved was nowhere near what would be needed for putting an LS7 in a Camaro.

For those wondering how the Mach 1 Mustang from 10 years ago (that sold in relative modest numbers at a low price) got certified, the engine was originally done as the 2002 Cobra that got cancelled by John Colletti at the last moment. Instead of the effort going to waste, Ford Performance used the engine to create the Mach 1.

Bit of trivia:
Engineers modified and certified the GM B-body cars (Caprice, DeVille, Roadmaster, Impala SS) for the move from LT1s to the LS1 engine in 1998. That money went to waste when GM decided to instead kill off the B-body cars.

(What killed the B-body wasn't bad sales or government regs, or even CAFE.... It was the Tahoe and Suburban!! GM had a capacity shortage just when SUV sales were exploding. GM decided to convert the Arlington Texas plant from cars with low profit margins to large SUVs with high margins.)

Z28x

Great posts guionM

There was talk of a 7.0L V8 for trucks, but I guess it got cancelled. There was also going to be a supercharged 6.2L called the LST, that also got cancelled.

King Moose SS

Why'd you tell me this... I'd do naughty things to have a factory LS1 Impala SS.

96_Camaro_B4C

While I'm sure there were LS1s in development Impalas, I doubt it made it to full EPA cert level, since the car was killed after the '96 model year.

guionM

You actually came pretty close.

There were those at GM to which killing off full sized RWD cars didn't sit too well (they were still selling well, still profitible, and the Impala SS sales generally increased every yea it was made). There were plans drawn up to move production down to Mexico (much like the last El Caminos were).

Came pretty close to actually happening.

Last bit of trivia on this:
another option GM considered regarding the upcoming death of the B-bodies was importing Holdens (sound familiar?). GM-NA actually sent people down to Holden to work with them on the upcoming '99 Holden V and W cars. Buick was to get the large car, Chevy was to get the Commodore and Ute, and a coupe version was evaluated for a possible 5th gen.

The sedan ideas were dropped for North America due to a combination of the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome at GM-NA as well as production volumes needed for the US (which would have required a big expansion at Holden to produce cars for here... and idea that wouldn't sit well with the UAW & CAW when GM was trying to close plants here). But the effort did in result in Chevrolet's Middle East RWD cars. Meanwhile, the Ute-to-El Camino idea died due to the "Pickup Truck Tax" (heavy tax designed to protect US made trucks), and the Holden based Camaro idea died in favor of using the Sigma... which in turn died because of cost and supposed architecture incompatability (not to mention numerous hidden reasons... but that's a whole other story).

Due to CAFE (as well as safety regulations), car companies submit vehicle plans to the Feds a number of years in advance. They must submit models, engines, fuel economy, and projections. If I remember, this is done 3 years in advance, so right now you could pull this list up and see what every car maker is doing all the way up to at least the 2016 model year. This info isn't available to the public or press (though some in the press do have connections and use this info for "future vehicles" references).

Final tuning for both power output and fuel economy is done just before a car starts production, but for the most part the EPA's direct involvement involved in certifying a car is much more minimal than you think. Each car maker is responsible for doing their own testing. The EPA will pull cars at random to verify, but the actual percentage of vehicles the EPA tests is somewhere well south of 25%. The LS1 was already certified for emissions, and GM would have been the one to certify the engine met federal regulations in the B-body (an anticlimatic cakewalk compared to the other certifications GM did for the swap).

GM made the final decision to kill the B-body only about a year or so in advance, so it's safe to say that outside of final tuning, thet the LS1 B-body was most likely "certified" (safety, components, durability, ballpark emissions and fuel economy) and would have been killed right before it was time to sign and fund OEM contracts for the '98 cars... no later than the end of '95.

Side note:

To put this all into perspective, the first 2010 V6 Camaros and the new 2013 GT500s were already on assembly lines (preproduction/early production cars) when their final tuning, fuel economy rating, and power figures were done.

If I'm not mistaken, the current Mustang V6 also had some tuning and certification that kicked the final EPA number from 29 to 31 mpg highway after it ran it's first few cars down the assembly line.

jg95z28

Then I fall back to my suggestion of well over a year ago... certify the hot-cam version of the LS3 (which is already available over the counter as a crate engine) in the 1LE and call it Z/28. 480hp N/A should be enough to distinguish it between the base SS and ZL1. They could price it $5k above the 1LE (the price difference in parts is negligible) lose the gaudy matte black hood "sticker" and slap on a few badges and be done.

guionM

Wouldn't even need to do that.

A programing and an axle change on a decontented SS with the 1LE.

Wouldn't need to do anything that would need recertifying, and would have a notable change in performance.

But, again, it'd never see the light of day if GM thought it'd simply canibalize SS sales.

Only exception: GM does a name swap like they did when they changed Z28 to IROC-Z, and then again a few years later when they swapped it back. Might even be a good move the last year or 2 to keep intrest up, and get those who bought an '10 or '11 SS to trade.