All this talk the last couple weeks brings me to this point. I'm asking this for my own knowledge. If we must discuss, please no peeing matches.

Is there?

Thanks,

Jeff
:blah:

Does a bear sh|t in the woods?

Everybody has biases often times formed on historical experiences and data - the big 3 have been pretty shatty in the last 2-3 decades so expecting people to throw away their preconceived notions and judge fairly for today and today only, might be asking too much. People are only human, after all.

Not to mention there's the 'boy that cried wolf' fact.
I've been hearing:
"(insert domestic manufacturer here)'s new (insert new model here) is really leading the way for a new era of competitiveness and quality for their respective company. This is the turnaround we've all been looking for."
...since I can remember ever first taking a serious interest in cars 15 years ago.

Do I personally believe that this 'turn around' is for real (well, at least for GM ,anyway)? Yes. I believe the magnitude of the turnaround is amplified by Toyota actually making some movement in the opposite direction (starting to slip on some products).

However I completely understand why not everybody is taking this movement at face value. We've all seen poor GM products before, and we've all seen supposed turn-arounds before. It will take more to convince people to take a fresh look at GM and stop prejudging the new improved models that have been coming out recently.

Yes with a sorta on the end.

GM is just THAT big and like Wal-Mart and Disney, anything they do will fall unto criticism before praise.

Im not sure Ford and Chrysler get it quite like GM does. Ford deserves it too.

The bias is more in magazines...the writers of the magazines some are very biased..You might get a guy that loves Kia and the way they are moving up. Well if he loves everything Kia does hes going to step into the same "______" car and pick it apart EVEN if the cars better than the Kia in every point that counts.
Case in point the GTO vs. Mustang..the GTO won hands down but lost in the final vote for?? Thats a media bias..well Author bias...
or when they stack the Z06 against the high end exotics..then they rip the car apart comparing it to the interiors of cars 50-100+ more than it. Yet it handels or outdoes what the high price cars do. Another media bias.
Writers are people and the truth is many writers have bought into the "toyota rules all" mentality. Toyota earned it time and again over the years so its not like its not warrented. It is but when you take a car that is pound for pound an equal to the same Toyota makes and you pick it apart for something that the writer personally did not like and "you" as the consumer should not like it either.
I remeber one magazine that had an article along the lines of "they should be here" or something like that. They had the Opel Astra and they said everything about it is world class up to date and amazing and bring it over like it is. Well they did..and it gets the shaft from some. Some do recognize they did put it on a pedestle and it is CotY for one.
Comparisons to Cobalt and Scion Tc are funny to they rip the brand new cobalts "plasitc" interior yet praise the Tc for the same interior "plastic"
I could go on. But you get the idea..
People expect great things from Toyota Honda and what not, they do deliver. So you get the constant acolaids for products that please.
You have a long run of dissapointments you get the fine tooth comb treatment to find the most minute flaw is something that is on par with something Toyota makes.Cant be done and it is now showing. Cars that GM make for example are contenders and its getting known and the writers are having a harder time finding a legitimate grip so they make things seam wrong about the car. "Everything about the GM car is great but the washer fluid was out, so the winner is the Toyota.." I exagerate but its getting to that point. The cars are comming out where things like media bias will really show up now. If the car or truck that comes out is an amazing product and is confirmed on many levels you will find the "*** kisser" writer that still hope to get his biased view across...
In a few years I think we will see some new writers come out and a real level comparison feild again..it will not be 100% but close enough to judge comparisons fair and honest...

The other thing is the GM has to do what it has been doing..KEEPING THE QUALITY UP..not just in a few vehicles but all the way down the line..make sure they are perfect..you cn have stars like the vette wipe the floor. But the people should know going into a dealer that you will get the same quality checking out the vette or really buying the cobalt.

What are the most popular cars? (Camry, Accord, Corolla, Civic)

How frequently has the Big 3 made legitimately competitive cars to those four?

Maybe there isn't a "media bias" so much as a general societal bias? I tend to think that 99% of the time the so-called mainstream media is just telling people what they want to hear.

Legitimately competitive? Often.

Legitimately superior? Rarely.

It takes more than being 'pretty much good enough' to make people notice once you've been knocked off the throne.

Speaking of the "Boy that cried Wolf" how may articles have there been about Ford or GM going bankrupt?

I voted "yes", but it's worth pointing out that GM pretty much just won the NAIAS good-PR contest hands-down over everybody.

Gonna take time to turn it around.

The answer is yes. And, it becomes less defensible with each new domestic model. The tide will have to turn.

Does anyone remember the C&D article about 5 different sport compacts (RSX, Cobalt SS, WRX, ION Redline, and Neon SRT-4)? They called it "Cheap Speed".

Every other car outperformed the RSX. And yet, at the end of the day, they praised the RSX's cupholders and declared it the winner. There were nothing but complaints about that article in the next issue. A textbook case of blatant bias towards Honda.

My personal opinion is that it is "fad" to bash on domestics right now, and it has been for a while now.

Just like Nike shoes were the rage in school, Izod and LaCoste were the shirts that everybody who was popular had to have them. Just like flashing your new Razr or Chocolate cell phone in a crowd makes you "all that". It's a fad. One that has been around for several years now and doesn't appear to be going away yet.

Converse and Reebok shoes were just as good really (we won't speak for the ShoeShow Bo-Bos ). There were numerous shirts from Sears and JCPenny that were just as good and durable as the Izod was at half the price - but it didn't have the cute little gator. A cheap cell phone can still make a call for you. Etc. POINT IS - the people who want to be accepted by the crowd tend to act as the crowd does - whether it makes sense or not. I think this is a big part of the current fad; that is, bashing the domestics for being a "lesser" vehicle - whether it deserves it or not.

I am the person who keeps posting about "designed and planned obsolescence" and "intentional cheapness", and I am the first to admit that the American car companies shot themselves dead in the **** with that stupid idea. No arguments about it.
HOWEVER, that concept was birthed in the late 1960s, came into practice during the 1970s, was at it's peak by 1980/1981, and was abandoned by 1984 across the board IIRC. Giving the makers a few years to redesign and retool for better quality product, I would say that the mid-1980s is when they started to turn around. And I think there are signs of improvements that resound from those years... the Regal GN, Monte Carlo SS, the IROC-Z, the Mustang GT, the Taurus, the Escort, the K-car, etc. These all were really great cars in their day - styling, service, quality... they were all leaps and bounds above their predecessors and they were sales hits. Heck, Iacocca's K-car platform sold so well it pulled them out of governmental hock... they were sorta ugly, but they were inexpensive and reliable so people loved them.

Now for people to say that American cars have been crap since 1990 I have a real beef with. GM and Ford have made some GREAT cars and trucks since 1990. Their most recent vehicles - especially the latest Buicks - have been nothing less than STELLAR in quality and durability. The S197 Mustang was a COMPLETE redesign from chassis to interior to engine and tranny - yet they are out for 3 years, getting the pizz modified out of them, pounded, thrashed, and bashed, and yet there are NO RECALLS! I find that nothing short of OUTSTANDING!
Buick is kicking butt in JD Power polls and on-the-street talk as well in quality and dependability. Chevy puts out a Z06 that is as docile and pleasant on the street as a family wagon, but pounds the pizz out of exotics that cost 2 to 3 times as much, and it gets pounded on because the brake rotor vents are not bi-directional for each side of the car specifically?!?! Examples abound.

Mean while, Toyota is having a problem with their drive-by-wire engine controls... people are being KILLED when cars are put into gear because they are running through garages and under housetrailers, dealers admit there's a problem, service techs say they can reproduce the problems, but Toyota denies anything is wrong... and the press praises them for having the best cars on the road.

I personally think that the domestic carmakers need to launch a cooperative campaign to attack the problem together, and show the American people that they are back on their game. Do a Ross Perot and buy a 1-hour time slot on a major network, and do a show on how they have improved, and what they have to offer. Run commercials that don't try to sell a particular vehicle or brand, but sell the American theme and provide a basis for the claims they make. Request interviews on Dateline and 20/20 and actually challenge the reporters to justify some of the things they have said about domestic cars.

Oh well. My vote's in, and there's my .02 on the situation.

that last part Proud would make a huge difference..If Ford and GM stepped up and went on the offensive..TV commercial..one on one comparos..all the way odwn the line..the autoshow in motion..make it a real comparo test..and so on..its not just one car they are winning the game at but retooling a whole company to run like it should..I really think about 97 is when you saw the fruits of the turn around actually grow..before then it was hard to get the beancounters to do what the car guys wanted..but I think it will be a big push in 2008..This I think and 2009 will be the stik to measure if they got it or not..